Randy McDonald ([info]rfmcdpei) wrote,
@ 2005-02-15 13:05:00
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[BLOG-LIKE POSTING] Why I Oppose Romanian Intercountry Adoptions (For The Time Being)
Last year, Claudia Muir at Halfway Down the Danube blogged (1, 2) about the European Union's ban on intercountry adoptions in Romania, imposed on Romania as a precondition for membership. At the time, reading her posts, I agreed that the ban was wrong-headed, though well-intentioned. This has since changed.

Although other countries--South Korea, Russia, China--have since become more important sources of children for adoptive parents in the developed world, Romania took on an almost iconic role as a source of children needing parents in the early 1990s. This, as with many other Romanian failings, can be blamed on Ceaucescu, who wanted to increase Romania's population to 30 million, to this end banning all birth control and criminalizing abortion. This pro-natalist policy was unpopular, not only because Romania's deteriorating living standards made it impossible for many parents to provide for their children. Many of these children were put into state-run orphanages, where Ceaucescu hoped to transform these ersatz orphans into "adults who had no loyalties to family or religion, who would therefore owe allegience only to the state." Conditions in these orphanages were horrible, as could be expected, with only the bare minimum of care administered by indifferent functionaries, and a wide variety of medical complaints--from developmental delays to HIV/AIDS--were rife. Following the 1989 revolution, Western media exploring what had been the most closed society in non-Soviet Europe found these orphanages, and publicized the plight of their residents. Many Western parents responded by offering themselves as candidate parents for the youngest and most vulnerable victims of Ceaucescu's regime.

Thursday morning, on CBC Radio's program The Current, the host interviewed Mary Anne Elton, producer of the documentary Return to Sender, scheduled for broadcast on CBC TV's English-language network yesterday. Return to Sender centers on the story of Alexandra, who, in 1992 at the age of 9, was sent from Romania with her two-year-old brother to by adopted by separate pairs of Canadian parents. One of eight children, she and her brother were put up for adoption by their mother because there simply were not sufficient resources to sustain all of the children. And indeed, her brother did go on to thrive in one happy Montreal household.

Alexandra was adopted by another Ontarian household. Five months later, Alexandra was sent back to Romania. The interview was unclear about why she was sent back; but then, given that Alexandra herself was unsure as to what happened, a clear answer isn't likely to appear. Alexandra's former adoptive father (ambushed at his doorstep in the United States by his former daughter and Alton) did say that Alexandra complained so much about being homesick; but then, what sort of adoptive parents would give up so quickly on a child who was going through expected difficulties, and who remembered her five months in Canada happily? It's unlikely that Alexandra will ever know for sure, since, after giving her his cell phone number at the end of their encounter, the coward cancelled his account before she could talk to him the next day.

What Alton was able to confirm was that, upon her return to Romania, Alexandra was left stateless. Romanian state functionaries, eager to expedite her adoption, altered her Romanian passport and gave her a Canadian birth place; in Canada, Alexandra never apparently acquired Canadian citizenship. Worse, her biological mother had severed all legal links with her daughter by giving her up for adoption. Without citizenship or legal residency in either Canada or Romania, Alexandra was never able to acquire an education, and her right to live with her family residency with her mother was always in question.

As Peter Selman noted in his 2001 paper "Intercountry Adoption in the new Millenium; the 'quiet migration' revisited" (PDF format), Romania has been a major source of intercountry adoptions, being the fourth-ranking supplier of children to American parents in 1996, for instance. However, even after attempts at regularizing this migration in the mid-1990s, there were serious structural problems, as this anonymous essay (PDF format) argues.



Following the fall of the Ceausescu government in 1989, the West learned for the first time of the huge numbers of children living in state institutions in deplorable conditions. There was massive publicity about the plight of the children and citizens from foreign countries began coming to Romania to adopt children. Initially, there was little legal infrastructure to deal with the demand. This lack of structure and oversight led to reports of widespread corruption in the process. In 1997, the Romanian government briefly suspended international adoptions while it created a new system. The new system had two functions: it provided matching of children for inter-country adoption and it created a source of needed funds for child welfare activities in Romania. The resulting "point" system relied heavily on authorised Romanian foundations to undertake matching available children with prospective adoptive parents. The number of children assigned to a particular foundation was based on the amount of points it was given for child welfare spending in Romania. Many foundations were receiving points solely for providing money and were not actively working for overall improvement in child welfare in Romania. This system became widely criticized as the costs of adopting children increased with little data about the welfare of the children and without strong accounting for the funds. A corollary to this is that unethical bodies and foundations did not encourage reintegration or national adoption, for which there were not large financial incentives, and rather encouraged availability of babies for inter-country adoption.



As Claudia points out in the comments to her posts, and as a simple Googling confirms, conditions in Romanian orphanages remain dire. It's a good thing for children needing parents to acquire parents. It doesn't matter significantly to me whether these parents are acquired inside or outside of the children's country of birth, so long as the parents are capable parents. [info]jittenhouse is living proof of this.

Even so. In the specific case of Romania, despite the problems that the residents of the country's orphanages continue to suffer, despite the presence outside of Romania of would-be adoptive parents of undoubted competence, despite the fact that the outright prohibition of intercountry adoption will have only a relatively marginal effect on child trafficking, a ban on intercountry adoption would seem to be a good thing; or, at least, less bad than a system of intercountry adoption that, say, can leave an adopted child rejected by her adoptive parents and left stateless*. Until such time as Romania's capable of sustaining a system of intercountry adoption not capable of such crime--and of combatting child trafficking--the European Union is doing a good deed in requiring the ban. Or, at least, a less bad deed than turning a blind eye.

* (This criticism, incidentally, applies equally to Ontarian child-welfare organizations: How did they so completely lose track of Alexandra and fail to help her? Her brother's adoptive parents, it turned out, would have been happy to take her in.)



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[info]mikedavsi
2005-02-15 06:18 pm UTC (link)
Intercountry adoptions: In our biased sample set, one kid is in great shape, another kid falls through the cracks and is left stateless.

No intercountry adoptions: No kids get adopted by nice Canadian parents, all kids are stuck in Romanian orphanages.

Dur-hey?

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I don't get it
(Anonymous)
2005-02-15 06:53 pm UTC (link)
Doug here, replying on behalf of Claudia, who must go to bed early. (She has a LiveChat for a course she's taking, and the time difference means it'll happen at 1 am.)

Some thoughts.


1) The story of Alexandra is horrible, but how does this indict international adoptions generally? More specifically, what does this botched adoption from 1992 tell us about the potential for Romanian adoptions in 2005?

"No more Alexandras" is a laudable goal, but I'm not seeing the logical chain that connects this to "so no more adoptions from Romania". When a child is killed in a car accident, we think about better ways to improve car safety. We don't conclude that no child should ever ride in a car.


2) The system that Romania had was badly flawed, no question. But, again, I have trouble seeing how this translates to "so the answer is a total ban".

In an EU candidate country, with (by world standards) a respectable middle class income, it's /impossible/ to have a half-decent system of international adoptions? Really? I live here, I see sluggish, Byzantine bureaucracy and the corruption, I recognize the problems. Yet I have trouble seeing /impossible/. With a fairly modest investment of political will, it should be possible to have a system that is at least okay. And even an okay, kinda-sorta, somewhat flawed system would be far far better than an absolute ban.


3) Claudia has said it before, but it bears repeating: Romanians are not great adopters. There are not thousands or even hundreds of Romanian families waiting in line to adopt. The vast majority of children in Romanian orphanages will *not* be adopted by Romanians.

Oh, and another fact that doesn't get mentioned. People keep talking about Ceausescu. Ceausescu was a long time ago. A baby born the day Ceausescu went up against the wall would be fifteen years old today. By now, almost none of the children in Romanian state orphanages are Ceausescu kids.

But the kids keep coming, because Romania went through a decade-long recession in the '90s, and over a third of the population still lives in poverty; because the traditional extended family system collapsed in the '80s and '90s, and nothing has replaced it; and because gypsies, in particular, are so miserably poor and wretched that they're all too willing to give up their children. At this point, what Romania has is "just" an unusually extreme case of a common post-Communist problem.

I guess it's easier to ascribe it to Ceausescu, but at this date it's no longer really accurate. About the only legacy there is (perhaps) a more generally cavalier attitude toward abortion and child abandonment, and I'm not even sure that's the case.


4) Can we emphasize again that Romanian state orphanages remain God-awful? They're not quite as horrible as they were back in the bad old days, but they're still very, very bad. Any child who stays long in that system is likely to end up permanently damaged.


5) I guess what really ticks me is that nobody even pretended to do a cost-benefit analysis here.

I mean, there were three options: keep the old system, try to get a new system going, or just adopt a ban. All of these have problems, but the analysis seems to begin and end with "problem, problem, let's ban".

How many kids would be adopted each year out of Romania? A few thousand a year seems like a reasonable number. Say 2,000. Internal adoptions will soak up maybe 200 a year. Okay, so, you have to argue that whatever was wrong with the old system was so bad that it's better to condemn 1,800 children a year -- five a day -- to blighted childhoods and miserable lives. And further, that getting a better system is so clearly impossible that, again, it's better to condemn those kids than to even bother trying.


5) Final thought: as noted, a disproportionate number of orphan kids are ethnic Roma. This kids are... well, "doomed" is a word I don't want to use. But no Romanian family is going to adopt a gypsy child. Will. Not. Happen. International adoption is these kids' only hope.


There's more, but that will do for starters.


Doug M.

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Re: I don't get it
(Anonymous)
2005-02-15 07:43 pm UTC (link)
upon her return to Romania, Alexandra was left stateless. Romanian state functionaries, eager to expedite her adoption, altered her Romanian passport and gave her a Canadian birth place

Randy:

The problem isn't adoption, it's criminality. The officials who forged – yes, forged – her documents need to be prosecuted.

The false information that she was born abroad is irrelevant to Alexandra's Romanian citizenship. One acquires Romanian citizenship by having a Romanian parent. The parent doesn't even need to have been recognized as Romanian at the time of one's birth (e.g., the children of exiles can reclaim their Romanian citizenship merely by giving the Romanian government a copy of their birth certificate and those of their Romanian-born parents). (Well, also evidence of legal residency in the country where you're making the application, but that's irrelevant in Alexandra's case.)

I don't know nearly enough about Alexandra's situation to make firm comments, but I dare say that her trouble in regaining her Romanian citizenship had more to do with a non-responsive bureaucracy and parents who were very poor, probably poorly educated, and uncomfortable in asserting their rights. These are real problems which need to be addressed, but they have nothing to do with adoption.

Final thought: as noted, a disproportionate number of orphan kids are ethnic Roma. This kids are... well, "doomed" is a word I don't want to use. But no Romanian family is going to adopt a gypsy child. Will. Not. Happen. International adoption is these kids' only hope.

I couldn't agree more.

Alexander

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Re: I don't get it
[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-15 09:51 pm UTC (link)
[W]hat does this botched adoption from 1992 tell us about the potential for Romanian adoptions in 2005?

For starters, it took at least 13 years to rectify the outcome.

Her personal experience, starting with the erasure of her Romanian citizenship to expedite her emigration, continuing with the lack of any followup with her adoptive family, and ending with her long twilight existence back in Romania, suggests that the Romanian state wasn't interested in any sort of effective regulation of intercountry adoption. I don't think that either of us would disagree that things improved significantly. (And, I add, the Ontarian provincial state. What the hell was going on in and around Queen's Park?)

In an EU candidate country, with (by world standards) a respectable middle class income, it's /impossible/ to have a half-decent system of international adoptions? Really?

I never said that, actually.

What was the pre-ban system of international adoptions like? Was it well-regulated? Was it responsive to external scrutiny, hostile to the partial criminalization of much of the trade? Was there any sign that the necessary investment of political will would be made?

You point out two things:

Romanians are not great adopters. There are not thousands or even hundreds of Romanian families waiting in line to adopt. The vast majority of children in Romanian orphanages will *not* be adopted by Romanians.

and

[A] disproportionate number of orphan kids are ethnic Roma. This kids are... well, "doomed" is a word I don't want to use. But no Romanian family is going to adopt a gypsy child. Will. Not. Happen. International adoption is these kids' only hope.

Agreed. Selman argues that similar trends (the lack of a tradition of adoption, the stigmatization of adoptees) explain the substantial number of intercountry adoptions in South Korea, even after that country reached the First World.

Alexander argues below, compellingly, that Alexandra's situation stems from the systematic failures of the Romanian state regarding its citizens, in this particular case, towards children adopted by non-Romanian parents. In the event that an effective system was adopted, my objections would be nullified.

The question arises, though: If there was no system of effective oversight and no likelihood of such a system being implemented in 2002, should the system have been allowed to continue to operate? The involvement of the European Union complicates things, since--accepting your cost-benefit analysis--if it did nothing it would bear partial responsibility for what was going on, including the bad and/or criminal consequences.

If the system was structurally flawed, and if there was little to no prospect of things improving, then I'd argue--reluctantly--that the least bad thing would be to shut it down until such time as a new structurally sound system was implemented. Hopefully the time would be quick, in Romania and on the part of the European Union.

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Re: I don't get it
[info]mikedavsi
2005-02-16 12:04 am UTC (link)
Randy, I can't help but feel that there are measures to take beyond punishing all these kids for the country they were born in.

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Re: I don't get it
[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-16 12:11 am UTC (link)
What options are available?

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Re: I don't get it
[info]mikedavsi
2005-02-16 12:18 am UTC (link)
Hell, Randy, the existing system doesn't sound so bad. Better some kids suffer than _all_ kids suffer. And then there's the way that this ban disproportionally affects members of despised ethnic minorities...geez, I can't think of a single thing to say in its favor.

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Re: I don't get it
[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-16 12:47 am UTC (link)
I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea of a system of intercountry adoption that seems to have become partly criminalized being tolerated. Questions of liability and morality enter my mind: should the system wash its hands entirely?

Assuming it's possible--more specifically, given the relatively abundant resources in Romania, that enough people desire--to build a non-corrupt system, it should be done. Others would know better than myself if the new Romanian government is interested.

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Re: I don't get it
[info]mikedavsi
2005-02-16 12:55 am UTC (link)
I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea of children living in soul-crushing poverty and want, conditions that will scar them for life in one way or another because of the possibility that their country's adoption system might be corrupt. Honestly, Randy, saving Romanian kids is better than not-saving Romanian kids. I mean, hell, if international opprobium and the suffering of their excess children worried Romanian bureaucrats, they'd have done it by now!

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Re: I don't get it
(Anonymous)
2005-02-16 02:43 pm UTC (link)
I don't like it either, but "rather uncomfortable" doesn't IMO justify the ban.

Building a non-corrupt system is probably impossible, but building a much-less-corrupt system is certainly doable. And would be infinitely preferable to leaving this children where they are.

So why isn't it happening? Well...

(1) Romanian politicians have no love for this issue. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that the Romanian socio-politico-economic elite is pretty tired of it. Too many Romanians have gone abroad and found that foreigners know three things about Romania: Dracula, Ceausescu, and orphans. This is an intangible effect, but it's real. You can almost hear people thinking, /Enough with the damn orphans. We've got enough problems in this country./

The fact that, again, a disproportionate number of orphans are Roma doesn't help.

(2) Right now Romania is exquisitely sensitive to signals from the EU. (Here's where Baroness Nicholson comes into play.) Had the EU very strongly encouraged a reform of the existing system, then it would have been at least tried. Instead, when the first round of reforms produced visible corruption, baby-selling, and a crop of adoption horror stories (along with some thousands of happy and successful adoptions, let it be noted), reform fatigue set in.

I suspect the EU would have tipped towards a ban anyhow. They have to engage with Romania on so many issues, from the corrupt and overloaded judiciary to the integration of Romanian agriculture into the CAP. There's so much to be done, and limited energy, attention and political capital. A ban would always have been seductive in its simplicity.

Ms. Nicholson helped give it a good hard shove, though. What made her so vehement on this issue I don't know, but she was in the best possible position to put pressure on a Romanian government that was perfectly willing to be pushed.

(3) The present situation, I'm sorry to say, may be long-term stable. Kids will be abandoned, the orphanages will chew them up and spit them out. After a while pressure on Romania will decrease, as the foreign families that want children go looking somewhere else. There's no political payoff for any Romanian government -- center-left, center-right, or whatever -- in allowing foreign adoptions again; the whole issue seems to have become infected with subtle and malignant nationalism. About the only thing that could make them change their minds would be strong pressure from the EU. And that, of course, is not happening. The EU seems happy with the status quo too. We ended the corrupt system of baby-trafficking; pats on the back all around, lads, now on to the constitution.

Finally: while I'm more likely to be critical of US policy in the Balkans than otherwise, I have to say that IMO the US has been on the part of the angels on this issue. I'd particularly single out former US ambassador Michael Guest (2001-2004), who fought a doomed, Quixotic, but IMO noble rear-guard action against the ban. Guest wanted the system to be reformed, not shut down, and I think he was right.


Doug M.

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Re: I don't get it
(Anonymous)
2005-02-16 04:16 pm UTC (link)
I mostly agree, however I do have two quibbles:

The present situation, I'm sorry to say, may be long-term stable. Kids will be abandoned, the orphanages will chew them up and spit them out. After a while pressure on Romania will decrease, as the foreign families that want children go looking somewhere else. There's no political payoff for any Romanian government -- center-left, center-right, or whatever -- in allowing foreign adoptions again

While this is the short-term situation, and almost certainly will remain the situation medium-term, I'm dubious that it will remain the situation long-term. As Romanian society recovers from the dehumanizing effects of communism, there will be decreasing acceptance of a "solution" that involves "throw-way" people. Either internal adoptions soak up the currently unwanted children, or the orphanages are fundamentally reformed, or foreign adoptions will be allowed.

the whole issue seems to have become infected with subtle and malignant nationalism

Better malignant nationalism than malignant racism.

[In case the preceding sentence is unclear, what I mean is that it's better if there is a nationalist backlash against "losing" Romanian children to foreigners than a racist response, encouraging the adoption of Gypsy children in a sort of ethnic cleansing. Nationalism at least holds the seeds for an inclusion of the Gypsies within the nation. Whether they'll sprout or not is a different matter.]

Alexander

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Re: I don't get it
[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-17 02:54 am UTC (link)
I don't like it either, but "rather uncomfortable" doesn't IMO justify the ban.

I was chatting about this with [info]mikedavsi last night.

Say that, under the prior system, 95% of the children get sent off to entirely happy and wonderful parents and live happily ever after, while the remaining 5% end up getting made into equatorial pork. Is it acceptable to tolerate the system, knowing that it produces such wonderful results for almost all of the orphans, even though only a small minority end up suffering worse degradation?

The fact that, again, a disproportionate number of orphans are Roma doesn't help.

Are Roma children, in fact, being adopted?

Ms. Nicholson helped give it a good hard shove, though. What made her so vehement on this issue I don't know, but she was in the best possible position to put pressure on a Romanian government that was perfectly willing to be pushed.

The article that Claudia linked to mentioned two Romanian orphans who lived in a well-kept orphanage and who didn't want to be adopted and taken from their country, but who were being pressured anyway.

Guest wanted the system to be reformed, not shut down, and I think he was right.

Assuming that reform was, in fact, a practical possibility, and that in the absence of the reform the sacrifice of a minority of orphans to a far worse situation would be considered a valid trade-off.

Perhaps my position is overly philosophical, lacking sufficient grounding in the crude realities of Romanian politics.

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Re: I don't get it
[info]mikedavsi
2005-02-17 04:05 pm UTC (link)
I'm trying to think of a way to have this argument without getting pejorative, and I'm losing track, so I might be getting ready to back off. But to go back to what you and I said: Yes, obviously it's better to save 95 kids than let all of them die. It's always better to take the measure that helps children instead of torturing them.

(Using Cori's church, which for all I've seen is an enthusiastic embracer of international adoptions across racial boundaries: why shouldn't these parents be able to adopt Romanian kids? Because Romanian bureaucrats might exploit other kids? Parents who want kids here----kids who want parents there. But because there are bad people on the road between, you _forbid_ travel on it? WTF?)

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Re: I don't get it
[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-17 05:35 pm UTC (link)
I'm concerned with the moral implications of tolerating a system wherein x% of the orphans are condemned to radical exclusion so that the remaining (100-x)% will benefit. What moral authority can justify the sacrifice of x% of the children?

My issue isn't with the process of adoption, in general or in the specific case of Romania. Rather, it's with a specific system of adoption.

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Re: I don't get it
[info]p_o_u_n_c_e_r
2005-02-18 07:40 pm UTC (link)
What moral authority can justify the sacrifice of x% of the children?

At risk of sounding frivolous, I give you Spock: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of any one."

Doug in passing comment on some other topic entirely pointed out a reference to an old New York City political operative with Tamminy Hall (whose name I forget) "Honest Graft gets the roads built." Yes, there will be some money stolen. Yes, there will be people taking on the mission for greed rather than love-of-children. Yes, Potemken Village orphanages in which baths and clean un-tattered clothing are available only when the camera crews are due to come filming will be established.

The solution to all that is to keep the cameras rolling. Put the problem into the spotlight, run the program, spot the flaws, make a change, lather, rinse, and repeat.

Suppose we want a program that is 99-44/100th pure. Can we at least admit it may take ten years to get to that point? That we can only make progress in discrete steps? In year nine, then the program may be only 90% pure-- and shit crap damnmit to hell 10% of the kids suffer. But we hope that's better than in year 8 when only 80% of the kids escaped, or in year 7 when only 72% did, or year six, 65%, year five 59%, year four 53%, year three 48% year two 44% and year one in which 6 out of ten -- a super-majority -- of the kids in the system were kept back and destroyed. Yes, dammit, that IS unacceptable. But how low must the failure rate be before we agree to START implementing a fix?

Right again, it's not about Romania specifically. But if you look at China or Cambodia -- where the situation began a decade ago with dire "dying room" institutions and truly frightening tales of corruption -- you'll see that the process refines or polishes itself with increasing participation. And the more hands out, the more everybody in the "donor" countries has a stake in making the placements go smoothly, the more pieces the available pie gets divided into; so the smaller the take for each player, and the less incentive to screw around with a steady flow of happy "customers" by putting a big bite on any particular one customer available at the moment.

In 1992 your Canadian/Romanian story indicates a 50% failure rate. If they'd been making incremental progress saving even 5% more of the kids in the program per year for the past 13 unlucky years .. they'd be up close to damn near saving over 80% of them by now. How bad does the percentage really have to be to give up before you begin?

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Re: I don't get it
[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-18 10:07 pm UTC (link)
I honestly don't know.

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[info]mikedavsi
2005-02-16 08:09 pm UTC (link)
In fact, consider this for a reply: turning a blind eye is _precisely_ what the European Union is doing. "Instead of taking serious action about this problem, we're just going to declare that it's not our problem anymore." Meanwhile yet another group of government bureaucrats screws Romanian orphans out of their futures, except now they're screwing over all Romanian orphans as opposed to just a few unfortunates.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-17 02:55 am UTC (link)
If nothing else, the ban makes its considerably more difficult for corrupt state authorities to lend a veneer of legitimacy to child trafficking, and avoids the wink-and-a-nod sacrifice of a minority of orphans to a worse situation.

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Worse?
[info]p_o_u_n_c_e_r
2005-02-18 07:54 pm UTC (link)
"sacrifice of a minority of orphans to a worse situation"

Uhm. worse, how for example? Grind orphans up and feed the resultant meal to hogs? There are many who'd argue that a quick end is better than dying a slow and painful death of disease, starvation, neglect and abuse. Maybe, maybe not. But barring a quick and I'll stipulate unmerciful death, what exactly do you envision threatens these kids when you speak of the "worse" situation?

Handing 'em off to UN peacekeepers, maybe?

Speaking of which.

"Human trafficking" Hmmm ... y'know, a dim suggestion that adopting my child internationally is somehow, someway, kinda-like, not-really-so-dissimilar-to buying a slave for my sugar cane plantation or stocking my harem with pubescent girls, and so that we might as well use a catch-all term for all of it ... That doesn't really endear me to your cause, y'know? I wonder if there's another phrase for it that might reflect the difference in motivation between the markets?





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Re: Worse?
[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-18 10:06 pm UTC (link)
Uhm. worse, how for example? Grind orphans up and feed the resultant meal to hogs? There are many who'd argue that a quick end is better than dying a slow and painful death of disease, starvation, neglect and abuse. Maybe, maybe not. But barring a quick and I'll stipulate unmerciful death, what exactly do you envision threatens these kids when you speak of the "worse" situation?

Being in a situation where they're being even the theoretical possibility of any sort of meaningful intervention, for instance.

Handing 'em off to UN peacekeepers, maybe?

You do know, right, that Romania isn't under UN occupation?

"Human trafficking" Hmmm ... y'know, a dim suggestion that adopting my child internationally is somehow, someway, kinda-like, not-really-so-dissimilar-to buying a slave for my sugar cane plantation or stocking my harem with pubescent girls, and so that we might as well use a catch-all term for all of it ... That doesn't really endear me to your cause, y'know?

I can definitely understand that if, in fact, I had used "human trafficking" to refer to intercountry adoption in general. As it happens, I didn't.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

I don't buy it, Randy
(Anonymous)
2005-02-20 04:26 pm UTC (link)
Alexandra's plight is awful, truly, but is it common? High-speed traffic accidents are awful, too, but I get on the highway every morning just the same. If inter-country adoption results in much better lives for 99 and one situation like Alexandra's, then it's still a net good overall, and an unambiguous good for nearly everybody involved.

Bernard Guerrero

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(Anonymous)
2005-02-21 06:48 pm UTC (link)
"The best is the enemy of the good." -- some guy.

Look at the politicking behind this, Randy. Instead of a meliorist attempt at a solution, the interested parties have decided to make it an absolutist issue -- all or nothing. And, to their disgrace, because it's currently impossible for them to have it all, they can accept nothing and wash their hands of it with (what they say is) a clean conscience.

Not only that, but they can suck people of goodwill into agreeing with them, because now they can play the I-am-purer-than-thou card.

It's a form of moralistic blackmail as scummy as Morton's Fork.

Look at the practical effects. Has Nicholson et alia _helped_ the situation any? Only in the sense that now you in Canada don't have to see any bad effects happening _in Canada_. It's not particularly different from responding to television footage of a famine by decreeing that the TV won't show any famine footage. Problem gone!

Sorry to harsh on you like this, man, but you're not thinking straight here.

Carlos

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(Anonymous)
2005-02-21 06:54 pm UTC (link)
Incidentally, why not ban Ontario's child protection agencies too? Because they failed as well, you know.

C.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-21 09:35 pm UTC (link)
Problem gone!

The potential problem in Canada, and by extension other receiving countries, yes. I don't disagree with you that this leaves the underlying problems in Romania untouched, or that for the (100-x)% of the children who would have suffered good outcomes this is a catastrophe. If I'm leaning away from my original position, it's because of the (100-x)%.

My problem, I think, is that I perceive another form of moral blackmail active among many people who oppose the ban altogether. Upthread, [info]p_o_u_n_c_e_r paraphrased Spock's argument that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Going back to that saying's original context, it was never used to imply that the needs of the one were irrelevant, or to justify the outright neglect of minorities.

We agree that for x% of the Romanian children who were adopted, there were catastrophic outcomes. Likely there were outcomes substantially worse than Alexandra's; we know about her not because of the diligence of her adoptive parents, but because the adoption broker in Romania actually returned her to her biological mother.

Saving children from a horrific situation is a good thing; Bernard Guerrero's comment upthread, that there is definitely net good in the situation if there are 100 children and x% is 1. I'm concerned, though, that the x% of children who were subjected to bad outcomes weren't being acknowledged, or that the systematic incompetence of the responsible state agencies should be overlooked (and the suffering that this produces among x%), almost considered an acceptable price. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of offering up nonconsenting parties as sacrifices for the greater good.

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(Anonymous)
2005-02-21 11:01 pm UTC (link)
I think there's an implicit Omelas assumption behind your reasoning. Me, I don't see the x% as being the price for the 100-x%. I see the x% as something to be reduced to 0% as far as humanly possible.

If one doesn't believe in a causal link between the suffering of the x% and the relatively good outcome for the 100-x% -- and I sure don't -- it's very hard to understand your position. I take it you don't feel that Ontario's rather small x% is enough to ban its child services?

From my viewpoint, your point of view smacks of badly internalized zero-sum game reasoning, like sado-monetarism, or the Leninist dictum of 'it must get worse before it gets better'. Balance utilitarianism.

But there's no balance here. Alexandra's unhappiness is not responsible for the happiness or its lack in other adopted Romanian orphans. There is no causal connection.

There's another saying that gets passed around in situations like this: "hard cases make bad law". The extremes shouldn't blind you to the general.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-22 03:10 am UTC (link)
I think there's an implicit Omelas assumption behind your reasoning. Me, I don't see the x% as being the price for the 100-x%. I see the x% as something to be reduced to 0% as far as humanly possible.

If you grant the assumption that it would have been very difficult-verging on impossible to reform Romania's system given the constellation of political forces in Romania and in the European Union to reduce x%, and if you grant the assumption that the system is necessary for the greater good of Romanian orphans, I don't quite understand why the Omelas assumption wouldn't fit. If it's a matter of tolerating the radical exclusion of x% so that 100-x% thrive ...

Mind, my argument's critically dependent assumes that both of these two assumptions are correct, in particular my first one. And I'm increasingly convinced, if reluctantly, that the harm done to the 100-x% of the children is greater than that which was done to the x%.

I take it you don't feel that Ontario's rather small x% is enough to ban its child services?

Sorry for not responding to that point--I'd assumed it was rhetorical.

Perhaps this demonstrates a lack of imagination, but I find it hard to imagine how Ontario's child-protection agencies could so thoroughly disenfranchise as the Romanian intercountry adoptions service. The ability to strip children of their citizenship, for instance, doesn't come to mind.

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(Anonymous)
2005-02-22 08:09 pm UTC (link)
US child protection agencies sometimes fail too, and sometimes with results far worse than being rendered stateless. While I don't know of any examples where the affected children have subsequently been fed to pigs, as per Pouncer's example, I do know of cases where the children have been beaten, raped, tortured in truly gruesome ways, and murdered as a result of their failure, and sometimes all of the above.

Following Nicholson's 'reasoning' (and yes, I do think it deserves scare quotes), one should thus ban child protection agencies. Forgive me if I see this as a point where ideology and idiocy meet.

C.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-22 10:40 pm UTC (link)
US child protection agencies sometimes fail too, and sometimes with results far worse than being rendered stateless.

As American citizens, or permanent residents, presumably they would at least be included within the purview of US child protection cases. In the specific case of Alexandra, her statelessness--produced by a Romanian functionary's stripping of her citizenship, exacerbated by her adoptive parents' failure to acquire citizenship for their daughter, prolonged by the Romanian state's unwillingness to do anything for the child who ended up back in her country of birth--had rather serious practical consequences for Alexandra. Being a legal non-person incapable of acquiring a public education, paying rent, or giving birth to children who will be considered citizens isn't exactly pleasant.

I'd be interested to know if there were cases, in the United States, of children who were American citizens being stripped of their citizenship and left stateless.

This brings us back to the original question: What should be done to Omelas if the city can't be reformed?

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(Anonymous)
2005-02-23 12:28 am UTC (link)
I'd be interested to know if there were cases, in the United States, of children who were American citizens being stripped of their citizenship and left stateless.


Yes, there were. Setting aside cutesy things like the deportations of Mexican-Americans in California, look up the Nationality Act of 1940, or its successors. I believe one case went to the Supreme Court recently, involving an Amerasian guy.

Hell, Freeman Dyson's children were stateless for a while. If memory serves, they had to use Nansen passports.

This brings us back to the original question: What should be done to Omelas if the city can't be reformed?


Randy, Leguin wrote a fine parable. But the burden of proof is on you to show that this is an example of Omelas. As far as I can tell, there is no causal connection between Alexandra's travails and the benefits that other Romanian orphans may have received. (If there were, then why not hurt her some more? And if she had a perfectly fine time in Ontario, would other Romanian orphans be worse off?)

She is not a scapegoat for our sins. She is not 'the price we paid'. This is not very difficult.

C.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-23 01:06 am UTC (link)
Yes, there were.

Any recent ones?

As far as I can tell, there is no causal connection between Alexandra's travails and the benefits that other Romanian orphans may have received.

Inasmuch as Alexandra and the other orphans were handled by a single system, inasmuch as the consignment of Alexandra to statelessness and marginality appears to have been random, and inasmuch the system that produced Alexandra's decidedly negative outcome seems to be defended on the grounds of producing decided net benefits for the large majority of the Romanian orphans adopted by non-Romanian parents, there does, in fact, seem to be a connection.

Inasmuch as the Romanian state (and the Ontarian provincial state, and the Canadian federal state) seem to have been entirely willing to let Alexandra slip away rather for more than a decade rather than address the wrongs committed against her person, there does seem to have been a willingness to let a system and its bad works off lightly. If the competency of the system was challenged, after all, the possibility of future Romania-to-Canada adoptions would be threatened? Best, it seems to have been assumed, to do nothing about what happened, let Alexandra slide further to the margins and do nothing to resolve the underlying problems.

This isn't a precise parallel to the Omelas situation. It does seem similar enough for useful parallels, and conclusions, to be drawn.

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(Anonymous)
2005-02-23 03:40 am UTC (link)
I disagree, and I think you've convinced yourself of something that isn't the case.

C.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-02-23 03:43 am UTC (link)
OK. Might I ask where you think I'm specifically going wrong? If there are flaws in my reasoning, I've not yet picked up on them. Inasmuch as you're an authority who I respect considerably, I'd appreciate your help.

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(Anonymous)
2005-02-23 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Randy, I've already told you, in detail. I think you've mistaken them for rhetorical devices, which is frustrating.

Show me how the bad fates of Romanian orphans who fall through the cracks _make the outcomes of the others better_. That is an Omelas situation, where the pain of one child trapped in a closet is the direct cause of the wealth and happiness of a city. [1] You haven't.

Instead, you talk about operational flaws -- sloppiness, carelessness, neglect, malignity. But that's a meliorist argument. Even if the topic under discussion were low-stakes, an absolutist conclusion would be inappropriate.

In addition, you object to some of the _excuses_ of people satisfied with the previous status quo. And that's fine, but that's not an argument for or against anything. The cliche here is "more heat than light".

From where I sit, there isn't a whole lot of reasoning in the strict sense going on. I don't mean to be harsh here. Obviously you feel strongly about this, as do I. But what I'm seeing is a well-written but logicless gush, that uses the style but not the substance of reason to support an emotional conclusion.

Here's a final hint: see if your argument as it stands would work with a search-and-replace with something else.

C.

[1] And it's a Levi-Straussian structural inversion of the Passion, although LeGuin doesn't tell you she's messing with anthropology again.

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