Debbie N. ([info]wild_irises) wrote,
@ 2005-11-01 15:51:00
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What Do They Think Their Job Is?
Over in [info]wordweaverlynn's journal, she posted a particularly ugly story about how her psychiatrist didn't check drug interactions and she had a horrifying couple of days. That she came out of those horrifying days alive and without an emergency trip to either the medical or the psychiatric hospital is just the luck of the draw.

In the comment thread, I said that psychiatrists don't think drug interaction management is their job, and [info]firecat quite reasonably asked what they think their job is.

Disclaimers:

1) What follows is NOT an apologia for the psychiatric profession, just an analysis.
2) Not all psychiatrists are alike: the range is vast and many attentive, caring people are members of the profession.
3) I am not a medical professional and I don't play one on TV. At the same time, I am a keen observer of the medical establishment, and I pay what feels to me like a lot of attention.
4) I have never had occasion to ask for or take psychiatric medications.

***

As near as I can sort it out, Kaiser psychiatrists (like the one who took such bad care of [info]wordweaverlynn) see a patient every 15 to 30 minutes, all day every day. They listen as much as they care to or can, write prescriptions, and "Next!" You might as well take a number just like in the butcher shop. They have no economic incentive to see more patients; they just have a corporate structure which evaluates them on number of patients seen. Non-HMO psychiatrists ostensibly have somewhat more time per patient, but to balance it out, they have an endless burden of insurance forms, only some of which they can pass on to their staff. And they do have an enormous economic incentive to see as many patients as possible. Most of both groups now give patients email access, which means that nights and weekends are spent answering email as well as phone calls. And they all have malpractice insurance, which protects them from the worst economic consequences of their mistakes.

Everyone I know (call it something like 20 people) on multiple psychoactives spends a good portion of their time monitoring everything from dry mouth and sleepiness to shaking limbs and nonsituational rages. Most of them, no matter how much they hate the side effects and side-effect management are really, really glad to have access to these drugs at all.

I think many of the doctors have convinced themselves that psychoactive drug interactions are simply part of the experience of taking more than one psychoactive drug. I think they believe the interations are an unpleasant consequence of access to medication, and the patients should simply "expect" a certain amount of inconvenience. (Yes, any doctor who treats [info]wordweaverlynn or any patient with comparable health issues should be paranoia-level aware of the seriousness of her allergies and the increased risk she faces from possible interactions, but ask her how hard it is to get anyone to believe her about that seriousness.) I think they have a sub rosa feeling that monitoring drug interactions is a slippery slope which they would spend their lives at the bottom of if they took the responsibility to track it seriously, so they don't. They figure they'll hear from patients who have side effects. They figure they'll hear from those patients anyway.

In Lying, Sissela Bok makes the crucial point that lies look different to liars than they do to those lied to. Drug side effects look different to patients than they do to doctors. My father used to quote comedian Jonathan Winters in his M.D. role saying, "It doesn't hurt a bit. I've done it a thousand times. Oh, you mean hurt you!" I suspect Lynn's psychiatrist would be as angry as she is if he or his hypothetical daughter had Lynn's experience. But his patients aren't people, exactly. They're interchangeable short-term encounters, some of whom will have bad experiences.

"Next!"



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[info]imnotandrei
2005-11-02 12:26 am UTC (link)
1) I now have Jacques Brel's "Next" stuck in my head -- which is a far less pleasant vision than the one you describe here, but which has a certain resonance to it.

2) Everyone I know (call it something like 20 people) on multiple psychoactives spends a good portion of their time monitoring everything from dry mouth and sleepiness to shaking limbs and nonsituational rages.

And some people you know who are on only singular psychoactives do this as well.

3) I commented to [info]wordweaverlynn this morning that we are, in an odd sort of way, back to the "humours" model of medicine with respect to psychoactives; they're taken in a form that doesn't get them directly to where they're supposed to go, which means that their effects are, at best, diffused -- and gives them a chance to mess with everything else in the system. And we don't have precise measurements for nightmares, for tremors that come and go, for dryness of mouth, for tempers lost, the way we do for blood pressure, T-cell count, etc.

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[info]singingnettle
2005-11-02 12:28 am UTC (link)
It's a bad situation all way 'round. I have carefully chosen doctors who for the most part don't have a "Next!" mentality...but the tradeoff is that they have not chosen to be covered by insurance (although tests and prescriptions are as long as we get them through covered providers) and that's where most of our disposable income goes. I am starting to resent hearing, "She's really good, but of course she's not covered." Usually they are specialists for limited and desparate groups. On one hand, some of them choose to be uncovered becuase it allows them to provide the kind of care they want to give; but there is an aspect of preying on a population as well. One of my docs recently referred me to someone and suggested that I see her for a diagnosis and a starting point only, because this person is hugely expensive, uncovered, and prescribes carloads of supplements to which she's added a massive markup.

I am sure most doctors don't suffer through med school so that they can churn patients through like widgets in a factory, and I know they all loathe the paperwork. They are somewhat trapped by the system as well. It's one of the reasons, even before all my health issues precluded that kind of physical stress, that I decided not to go into medicine. (I was pre-med and I have most of a masters in biopsycholgy.)

The American medical system isn't working for anyone but the insurance companies, and it needs a gigantic overhaul.

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[info]whumpdotcom
2005-11-02 12:28 am UTC (link)
It's interesting that monitoring drug interactions has to be as painful as it seems. [info]replyhazy and [info]rawdon's previous employer was a firm that developed software that tracked those things and provided heads up data for doctors.

It's sad that the only area where IT has made inroads in medicine is billing and payment.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-02 12:34 am UTC (link)
But his patients aren't people, exactly. They're interchangeable short-term encounters, some of whom will have bad experiences.

Oh goodie. Just exactly the attitude I've been bitching about on the local poly list. (Context: event planners who insist on "gender balance" for poly events, seeing individuals as X or Y genitalia that have to be hooked up in pairs lest dangerous imbalances destabilize the dollar. No wonder journalists are always looking for poly *couples*.)


Most of them, no matter how much they hate the side effects and side-effect management are really, really glad to have access to these drugs at all.

Oh my God yes. Topamax, despite its very serious side effects, has enormously helped people I care about. I don't resent the drug. And Effexor changed my life. I am profoundly grateful.

Which is why I go back to the pusher psychiatrist -- not because he treats me as a human being. I don't expect that, though it would be a pleasant surprise. But because he gives me the chemicals I need to be a functioning human.

All I ask is that he do so with some level of competence.

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[info]pantryslut
2005-11-02 12:37 am UTC (link)
Context: event planners who insist on "gender balance" for poly events, seeing individuals as X or Y genitalia that have to be hooked up in pairs lest dangerous imbalances destabilize the dollar.

Speaking as an event planner that attempts to have gender parity of a sort, I would say that at least part of the time, that's a misrepresenation of the goal. But I digress.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-02 12:44 am UTC (link)
I can see it in certain contexts. But a wine tasting?

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[info]pantryslut
2005-11-02 12:46 am UTC (link)
It might help to keep in mind that "gender balance" is usually another way of saying "not too many men". Yes, even at wine tastings.

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[info]abostick59
2005-11-02 01:27 am UTC (link)
Gender balancing is a strategy for minimizing the number of towel boys.

As a strategy, it has a crucial weakness: WTF is gender in the first place? Who, besides the towel boys, gets left out or otherwise made to feel unwelcome?


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[info]pantryslut
2005-11-02 01:32 am UTC (link)
It is an imperfect strategy toward addressing an intractable problem.

It can also be implemented in a variety of ways, acknowledging a variety of genders.

It is still imperfect.

One of the reasons I commented, though, is that misrepresenting its aim helps obscure other possible solutions.

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[info]rmjwell
2005-11-02 04:07 pm UTC (link)
One possible solution that many organizers routinely overlook is the simple disclaimer that "Asshats will be given an invitation to the world at the discretion of the host(s)". Basically a "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

My guess as to why many hosts don't do this range from the host is uncomfortable enforcing boundaries, being seen as a bad guy, or is just the sort of wanker who should get tossed.

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[info]pantryslut
2005-11-02 04:21 pm UTC (link)
Your solution only works if the people in question are actually asshats, and what you're trying to prevent is asshat behavior specifically. This is not necessarily the case either.

Also, it is always easier to prevent someone from attending than to kick someone out once they've arrived. It's not necessarily a question about being uncomfortable enforcing boundaries or being seen as a bad guy, or whatever. I am quite comfortable doing all these things, but I also know that it's much more touchy and high-stakes a situation to get someone to leave without a scene than it is to police the door.

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[info]rmjwell
2005-11-02 04:30 pm UTC (link)
Ah, see, I'm less concerned about the "without a scene" part.

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[info]pantryslut
2005-11-02 05:21 pm UTC (link)
But other guests *are* concerned about that part. And that's the rub.

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[info]rmjwell
2005-11-02 05:35 pm UTC (link)
Which is why I advertise my hostly prerogatives in advance of the event. Folks showing up know what to expect.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-02 07:40 pm UTC (link)
It is an intractable problem. I'm sure you could run through the issues in your sleep:

* Genderqueer, T* folk, gender outlaw issues.
* Apparent heterosexism leading same-sex partners to feel unwelcome. (This was one of the things that bothered me.)
* Reification of *coupleness* and possible relegation of non-couple partnerships to lower status. (This was another.)
* Commodification of sexually available women as a highly prized, scarce resource.
* Differing assumptions about the significance of being present at an event.
* Gawpers, gropers, and similar jerks.
* All the decent guys in the world who know how to behave being lumped in with gawpers, gropers, and jerks.


In the invitation in question (to an event I've never attended), I was particularly bothered by the phrasing "We try to make these events gender balanced to make the event feel safer for everyone. Let us know if your coming as a couple or if someone else who is replying separatley is your gender balance."

Leaving aside my editorial distress at the errors, this has an unpleasant flavor to me. It seems manipulative and sly, as well as couple-oriented, two-genderist, and heterosexist.

OTOH, it's an invitation, not a political manifesto. Possibly my hackles were raised by the event's external image as a community event but its semi-covert purpose as a proto-meet market. That kind of double message bothers me.

If you host a sex party, you have an absolute right to balance things any way you want. If it's a community event with open invitations, that gets more problematic for me. Trying to disguise what you're doing smacks (to me) of luring some guests in with the hope of a sex party--and luring other guests in with the expectation that it won't be.

I know that that's not a precise or fair description of what's happening -- but there's a hard-to-pin-down feeling there of unspoken expectations. I am all in favor of straightforwardly spoken and openly negotiated expectations.

There are some hosting strategies I've seen work, including updates of the hankie code using nametags/ribbons indicating availability, interest, and so on. Written rules are important. Another is just inviting people you know who share a community ethos.

My chief guest strategies at this point are attending events with groups of people I know well, or else saying the hell with public events and playing in private spaces.

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[info]pantryslut
2005-11-02 08:07 pm UTC (link)
I am still a little grumpy with criticizing a specific event by calling into question a more general (if problematic) policy. This seems quite akin, to my eyes, to the exact thing you were grumpy with -- treating specifics (people, events) as generals (genders, policies).

And that's all I have left to say on this topic at this time.

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[info]abostick59
2005-11-02 01:15 am UTC (link)
To be fair, it isn't just a wine tasting; it's a wine-tasting and hot-tub party. In other words, it's a get-naked-and-troll-for-dates-but-not-really-a-sex-party-honest party.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-02 07:40 pm UTC (link)
You nailed it, love. And that double message is what makes my dick itch.

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[info]irontongue
2005-11-02 01:21 am UTC (link)
I'm not finding the posting on wordweaverlynn's journal and am wondering if there is a permalink-equivalent to it? Or the date of the posting (or maybe it is in comments and that's why I'm missing it).

wordweaverlynn isn't the first Kaiser patient I know who has had problems in this situation. I'm hugely curious why Kaiser doesn't have better flags in the patient charts (on line or on paper) about allergies, sensitivities, and drug interactions, and also why there isn't a psychopharmacologist involved whenever a patient is taking multiple psychoactive medications.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-02 01:24 am UTC (link)
You're not on the filter -- but you should be. Let me go fix that.

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[info]kalmn
2005-11-02 03:46 am UTC (link)
if wild_irises and alan vouch that i'm not a creepy stalker, and i friend you, is there a possibility that i could see the post as well? i am only on the one psychotropic med, but i am on a whole big handful of meds for my arthritis.

(dear wild_irises and alan: we've rehearsed this, and your checks will be in the mail shortly. ;)

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-02 06:01 am UTC (link)
Weirdly enough, I followed a link to your blog today. And I've known you by reputation for some time. Check the post -- you should see it now.

Incidentally, I have generally made all mental health posts in public; I am a strong believer in being open. I don't want anyone to stew in the hell of isolation, thinking they're the only one. (Probably this is not the problem it was when I was growing up in the 1960s. But still.)

The only reason I don't do so these days is that my current employers have a hard enough time dealing with my asthma. If you google my name, the first hit is my blog, . The second is this LJ.

Yes, I am looking for a job where I can be more open about my life.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-02 10:37 pm UTC (link)
The blog is http://unnaturalhistory.blogspot.com, and I'm usually better than that with HTML.

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[info]irontongue
2005-11-02 05:04 am UTC (link)
Oh, thank you! I am honored.

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[info]19_crows
2005-11-04 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Hi Lynn, may I be on the filter too? Thanks.

I've recently been aware of a similar situation with some friends I know in another online way - he's taking a lot of psychotropic meds prescribed by Kaiser, and is having major problems that are spilling out onto his wife and other loved ones. He needs someone to sit down and look at all the drugs and their interactions, but the chances of that happening at Kaiser are pretty slim. Given his finances, seeing someone outside that system is going to be tough. It's rough for everybody.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-08 05:01 pm UTC (link)
I was just notified of this response--you're in.

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[info]wild_irises
2005-11-02 03:00 am UTC (link)
My bad. I hijacked the thread without checking to see if it was friends-locked. Lynn has forgiven me, however.

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[info]davidgoldfarb
2005-11-02 08:37 am UTC (link)
I was wondering why I wasn't finding the post in question.

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[info]wordweaverlynn
2005-11-02 06:51 pm UTC (link)
I also cross-posted it to [info]healingpartners, a community for people with PTSD and their friends/loved ones.

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[info]calimac
2005-11-02 04:45 am UTC (link)
Comparing these accounts and generalizations with my own experience with a Kaiser internist, I can only say that doctors vary greatly. Perhaps this problem is a specialty of psychiatrists. My doctor has always been very careful with prescriptions. His specialty is forgetting to make follow-up appointments.

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[info]firecat
2005-11-02 05:13 am UTC (link)
I agree that psychiatrists expect side effects to be part of the process, and I agree side effects usually are part of the process.

Furthermore, many docs won't mention minor side effects because they believe if they mention them, the patient will experience them because of the power of suggestion.

But I still think that psychiatrists who can't keep up with *dangerous* interactions among *psychiatric* drugs (which is the case here) are incompetent by definition. Whether a drug is dangerous with another category of drugs is information that's just as basic as what the drug does in the first place. If they can't remember that, we might as well replace them with a Magic 8 Ball with drug names on it.

Furthmore, if such interactions are common enough to be mentioned in the Physician's Desk Reference or its online equivalent http://rxlist.com (which is the case here), it would take them all of 1-2 minutes to check (that's how long it took me, and I wasn't even entirely sure which section to look in), and I think it's entirely reasonable to expect them to check.

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[info]firecat
2005-11-02 05:14 am UTC (link)
PS: I was angry when I wrote the above, but not at you.

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[info]aquaeri
2005-11-02 09:27 am UTC (link)
I don't know if this is because I'm in Australia, and we have a different health care system, but it's been my experience that I keep getting asked what drugs and alternative remedies I'm taking (by my GP, my shrink, the pharmacist, my dentist, even my optometrist, who was looking for a cause of the dry eye problem I have). I get the impression they're all rather keen to make sure the people they deal with aren't taking undesirable combinations of things.

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[info]nolly
2005-11-02 10:57 pm UTC (link)
I suspect that some of them may also expect the pharmacists to catch potentially harmful interactions. Not that the doctors should rely on the pharmacists, of course.

Also, many of my friends have found http://www.crazymeds.org quite useful.

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