Thomas Bushnell, BSG ([info]thomb) wrote,
@ 2005-05-30 14:13:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Meaning what you say
[info]ozarque is worried about a thing she calls "literalism" in this post. (I say "a thing she calls 'literalism'" because, as I hope will become clear, I'm not sure that "literalism" really means anything in the first place.)

One of the problems as she points out is this one:
My concern is the cognitive gymnastics required when a person must somehow believe, all at the same time, a set of propositions like this one: (a) Jesus is my Lord, and I am required to do what he said to do; (b) the Bible says that adultery is a grievous sin for which the proper penalty is death; (c) Jesus said that any man who divorces a woman for a reason other than adultery and then marries another woman is an adulterer; (d) I am a God-fearing Christian man who has divorced one woman and married another.


Now of course that doesn't, all by itself, require any mental gymnastics. One could simply add "(e) I do not do what my Lord requires me to do." What's wrong with that? Well, on one hand, it's wrong to do what one should not do. But another sense to the question "what's wrong with that?" would suggest that there is nothing logically wrong: no words are being tortured, no mental gymnastics. Indeed, isn't this what we all do (whether religious or not)? Nearly everyone is confronted with the combination of (i) I should not do X and (ii) I do X. No mental gymnastics are necessary to understand.

So what is the problem actually? There are really two candidates, and I suspect that [info]ozarque is really bothered about both, though I'm not sure she has carefully separated the two. (And part of the reason I think she hasn't is her use of the word "literalism," in fact.)

So the first candidate: we have people who say (i) I should not do X, (ii) I do X, (iii) it is in some sense OK that I do X, (iv) you should not do Y, (v) you do Y, (vi) it is not in any sense OK that you do Y. Now to make this something like a contradiction, we need principles of universalizability, such as "what ever makes it OK that I do X must rest upon grounds that can be applied neutrally to any person and to other wrong acts besides just X." There is much discussion in the philosophical literature about just what universalizability criteria are the right ones to assume, but this debate does not concern us here. If this (i) to (vi) bothers you (as I think it should), then let that be the pointer to whatever the right kind of universalizability is, and let's not fret about that detail.

This first candidate for what [info]ozarque is worried about is a kind of making special exceptions for oneself, a refusal to see that (iii) and (vi) are in deep tension. An example of this came up not to long ago, in which a prominent conservative Episcopalian--divorced and remarried--was asked about his divorce, and he replied that his divorce and remarriage took place before he "found Jesus." But the same person would not allow that if two men met and married, and then "found Jesus" it would be OK for them to continue their relationship. So the full dynamic is in play; justifying (iii) is an attempted universal rule ("sins you commit before you find Jesus don't count," which deep theological roots), the misapplication of that rule to (ii), since the issue is not the past divorce but the present sex with the second wife, and the refusal to apply the rule similarly to (vi). If this is what [info]ozarque is worried about, it's worth being worried about.

But I note that there is nothing particularly religious about this problem. Religion is entering in only as a bolster for (i) and (iv), and it isn't (i) and (iv) that are the problem. Religion is also offering a support for a universal rule that sanctions (iii), but here again, the problem isn't the rule being applied, but its misapplication--indeed, the real problem is that the rule is being applied to generate (iii) and not to generate (vi), which is a problem that is independent of where the rule comes from.

Ok, so while this is a problem, I guess that it is not what [info]ozarque is most bothered by, because then there would be no reason for describing it as being a problem about religious language. It would be a problem in moral psychology, and have nothing to do with any particularly religious question or language.

So I give a second guess. Perhaps what [info]ozarque is most bothered by is this different phenomenon. There are people who say something like: (I) Everything the Bible says is literally true; (II) Jesus said that remarriage after divorce was a great sin, (III) I am remarried after divorce, and (IV) I do not believe that I am committing a great sin. Note that here we do not need to add a reference to other people. The first guess above was about someone cutting exceptions for themselves which they would not cut for others. The second does not inherently involve that--though, of course, it might, when someone goes on to say "your homosexuality is a great sin because the bible says so and you should be treated as a great sinner therefore." So in this second guess at [info]ozarque's worry, the worry is purely about the speaker's own state, and not about an unfairness or misapplication of rules or universalizations.

When confronted with this second sort of person, also one that I agree is problematic and worrisome, I find that the answer is so obvious that I'm flabbergasted that [info]ozarque would think it's a serious problem worth investigation. The person in question simply does not actually believe "remarriage after divorce is a great sin." Either their reasoning is broken (which is sometimes but not often the case), or else they simply don't believe either (I) or (II). They proceed to talk as if (II) is the one they don't believe (by qualifying their exegesis with implausible wiggles, which they tend then to be unwilling to use to qualify the commands that bite other people--indeed, this might explain [info]ozarque's conflating of these two kinds of problems!). But in fact, it isn't (II) that they don't believe, it's (I).

Part of the problem is this word "literally," which is one that I have never been able to determine what it means. Presumably it means "not figuratively," in which case I would defend (elsewhere, not here) that this dichotomy is a matter of more and less, and all language is always (at least a little bit) figurative. But here it suffices to say that the people in question simply do not believe that everything in the Bible is true even when interpreted as being non figurative. (Does God have hands?)

So they say (I), but don't really believe it. Sometimes they believe the more plausible "everything the Bible says is true." But that can't raise the hackles that [info]ozarque says she's worried about, because it leaves room for interpretive strategies that allow one to deny (II) without the wiggles being crazy--since one has not signed on to a "literalist" program of exegesis, there is no craziness in using "non-literal" ways of understanding (II), which don't generate the problematic contradiction.

Once we're done, what we really have I think is the question: "Why do people assert things like (I) when they don't believe them?" But that's not even about language at all.

So I'm stuck: there are three ways to understand the worry that [info]ozarque points to: the one she explains, which can't be right because it isn't a contradiction in the first place--it's just an ordinary human experience of failing to meet one's own standards--and the other two which I think she is worried about, but one of them isn't about religious language after all, and the other isn't about language--religious or otherwise.


(Post a new comment)


[info]dpolicar
2005-05-30 05:14 pm UTC (link)
"Why do people assert things like (I) when they don't believe them?" But that's not even about language at all.
My instinctive response to this is "Of course it is!" On further consideration, I'm less strictly argumentative about it, but the sentiment remains much the same. I assume you mean something like it isn't about syntax or morphology, which is true. But it's about language, in the same sense that properly deciphering "How are you?" when asked by a coworker is about language... it's the question of how languge acts can be associated with underlying mental states vastly at odds with their literal content.

It's also, I think, not at all the question in which [info]ozarque is interested. It seems fairly clear to me that her concern is with the hypothetical speaker's desire/ability to avoid the conclusion "I am a grievous sinner", and with whatever damage may accrue to the speaker from his/her inability to do so. I infer from your post that you don't consider this a particularly interesting concern, which is perfectly OK, but I do think it's the one she's concerned by.

Also incidentally, I agree with you that similar binds arise in nonreligious contexts.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]thomb
2005-05-30 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Naw, that's not about language, any more than "why do people steal cars?!" is about automotive technology. It's about why they misuse language: why they use the sentence to mean something other than what it actually says. But no, that's not right. It's about why they use the sentence without actually meaning anything by it. And I think that's the point here: the quarry being hunted is not some kind of account of what they mean when they say (I), no that's not it at all. The quarry is to understand why they utter (I) when they don't mean anything by it in the first place. What causes this? What are they after?

It sounds as if you're saying that where I give two different attempts to understand which puzzle [info]ozarque is interested in, you think clearly she's after the first target, and not the second. Well, I did sort of say the second target was unworthy, for being so trivial. (Though the questions I repeat in the paragraph above, which are raised once the second target is shot, are hardly trivial!)

So the first target, I guess I would say, um, what makes us think that the divorced person doesn't say "I am a grievous sinner"? Well, some do and some don't, I suppose. For those who do, isn't that just the ordinary failing to measure up to one's standards? For those who don't, isn't that just the ordinary failing to hold oneself to one's standards?

In other words, how is it that the religious language (and all of [info]ozarque's talk about meanings and words and symbol systems and whatever) is important to this question? Sure, it's a good question in moral psychology, but I'm not sure that she understands it to be that kind of question. Which suggests that I don't understand just what question she is after. It is as if she is hunting through the forest after quarry--quarry that I agree is good to hunt--but when she says what she's after, she describes a beast that is a kind of chimera, with what I thought were different parts of other beasts all stuck together.

Now it sounds a little as if you're perhaps saying that my first guess at her target was the right one--the guess that I threw out right away so I could present the other two possibilities. But if that's the right one, then why do we need to look at other people at all? If the issue is people whose values say "I should not do X" while the people in fact do X, why do we need to look at right-wing fundies, say? Why not look at ourselves? I've got plenty of case studies in my own life of that kind of problem!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]dpolicar
2005-05-30 06:01 pm UTC (link)
A few things:
  • We seem to agree on what the question you posed is about, we seem to disagree about whether it is properly labelled "language." I would say that why someone in state X makes utterance Y is a question about language, you seem to say it's instead a question about psychology, which I can certainly appreciate (and would not disagree with).
  • While I was prepared to state somewhat definitively that the question you'd identified as what we really have was not the one in which [info]ozarque was interested, I'm not prepared to represent her position in more detail, and apologize for implying otherwise... I hereby back down and recommend you discuss the matter with her instead.
  • For my own part, I agree (as I said before) that much of what she says about religious language is also true of nonreligious language. It is related in general the problem of how one reconciles the desire to believe oneself a good person, the belief that certain properties are necessary to being a good person, and the observation that one lacks those properties.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]thomb
2005-05-30 06:33 pm UTC (link)
We seem to agree on what the question you posed is about, we seem to disagree about whether it is properly labelled "language." I would say that why someone in state X makes utterance Y is a question about language, you seem to say it's instead a question about psychology, which I can certainly appreciate (and would not disagree with).

If I say with you that it's a question of language, then that means that all questions are questions of language. A language expert becomes an expert in all things. I say, by contrast, that if I want to know how a car works, I ask a mechanic, and if I want to understand how to understand speeches about cars, I should ask a mechanic. If I want to understand how to understand speeches about mathematics, I should ask a mathematician. What is a linguist? If a linguist is just an expert on all uses of language, as you seem to want, then a linguist must be an expert on all subjects. For a withering critique of this position, I refer you to the Gorgias.

There is something to linguistics, which marks it off from the know-it-all Sophists, and it's about the syntax and semantics of languages--the very things that you agree that this question isn't about. So lets agree that questions of language are what are within the special expertise of the linguist, but that this does not include expertise on all the subjects that language talks about. For those, we have to go to their respective experts.

While I was prepared to state somewhat definitively that the question you'd identified as what we really have was not the one in which [info]ozarque was interested, I'm not prepared to represent her position in more detail, and apologize for implying otherwise... I hereby back down and recommend you discuss the matter with her instead.

Well, this is really about whether the "ground rules" for discussion on her blog's questions make sense. It seems that she does not want this kind of discussion there. (I'm not objecting to the kind of discussion she does want, and might chip in what I have to offer as inclination permits.) So I've given her a pointer to the discussion here, and it's up to her to decide if she wants to engage in it.

For my own part, I agree (as I said before) that much of what she says about religious language is also true of nonreligious language. It is related in general the problem of how one reconciles the desire to believe oneself a good person, the belief that certain properties are necessary to being a good person, and the observation that one lacks those properties.

Yes, this is a very serious problem. I don't think it's about language: note that your first sentence talks about religious vs. non-religious language, but then your second sentence, the real meat of the question as I see it, is about desires, beliefs, properties, observations, and so forth--but not about language. This is, I believe, as it should be.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

The boundaries of linguistics - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-30 08:59 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]thomb, 2005-05-30 09:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-30 09:52 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]thomb, 2005-05-30 10:02 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-30 10:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]thomb, 2005-05-30 10:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-31 06:25 am UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]thomb, 2005-05-31 08:07 am UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-30 10:02 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]thomb, 2005-05-30 10:07 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The boundaries of linguistics - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-31 06:26 am UTC (Expand)
The general problem - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-30 09:00 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]thomb, 2005-05-30 09:15 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-30 09:46 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]thomb, 2005-05-30 09:57 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-30 10:11 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]thomb, 2005-05-30 10:19 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-31 07:12 am UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]thomb, 2005-05-30 10:21 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-31 07:16 am UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]thomb, 2005-05-31 08:11 am UTC (Expand)
Re: The general problem - [info]dpolicar, 2005-05-31 08:19 am UTC (Expand)

[info]darlene_ford
2005-05-30 07:24 pm UTC (link)
I'd take a very different tack. What the speaker quoted is saying is that his frontal cortex and his limbic system are not telling him the same thing about either the failed past marriage, or his present one. No wonder he's confused about what he believes.

There is difference between frontal cortex and limbic system beliefs, and they can conflict. There are a lot of things that I know are against the law of God or man, and I really have no idea why, but I make some varying effort to comply out of respect for the lawgivers. But, knowing that I broke one of these rules doesn't hit me in the gut the same way as seeing tears in a loved one's eyes when I've let them down.

I think that you two, and most intellectuals, will have trouble following this because you have a lot of ego resting on the belief that all of your thinking and decision making comes from the cerbral cortex. A few questions to provoke thought:

Do you know that speeding is illegal?

Do you know that it contributes to automobile accidents?

Do you do it anyway?

Do you slow down when you see skid marks in the road, or debris along the road from a previous accident? Why? It's not telling you anything you didn't already know...

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]thomb
2005-05-30 07:29 pm UTC (link)
I have no idea whether this story about the cortical and limbic system is true. Maybe it is, but even then, I'm not sure I know what it would mean if it is.

These two kinds of beliefs, I don't have a clue what they are. Sorry. I don't have any belief that all my thinking and decision making comes from my cerebral cortex; I don't have any particular anatomical theory about my thinking.

Do I know that speeding is illegal? Yes.

Do I know that it contributes to automobile accidents? I don't know what the question means. My speeding has not contributed to any.

Do you slow down when you see skid marks in the road, or debris along the road from a previous accident?

No, and yes.

Why?

Because the debris is normally a danger; I slow down when I see hazards in the road.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]thomb
2005-05-30 07:31 pm UTC (link)
I have the vague suspicion that this anatomical talk is a way of sounding "scientific" when the issue is really about emotional attitudes vs. beliefs. I have both of those, and I have a good understanding of what it means for them to come in conflict.

The question is who is to be master, I suppose. The Republic has something to say on the subject. However, leaving that aside:

What does it mean for you to have two different beliefs which come in conflict? Can you give an example?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Two different beliefs
[info]dpolicar
2005-05-30 09:12 pm UTC (link)
Are you actually sincere with this question? I have trouble crediting it.

It is fairly conventional to attribute "belief" status to any proposition that describes the motivation to perform the actions I perform. I think it's deeply flawed, but it's conventional. So when Darlene talks about the "beliefs" underlying my speeding, and the "beliefs" underlying my not-speeding, I understand what she means. I could take the opportunity to argue the point, that none of these things are beliefs but rather habits and expectations and whatnot, but it seems rather a distraction. Is this the direction you're going in?

Or are you really not understanding what she's talking about?

Oh, and incidentally to Darlene: I respectfully submit that you don't really know me well enough to know on what my ego depends. That said, I'm somewhat interested in the topic of my assumptions about the grounds for what I do and think, though probably not on thomb's LJ, and not simply to correct a false assumption. As a quick one-liner, I'm more likely to model myself as completely arbitrary than I am to model myself as rational.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Two different beliefs
[info]thomb
2005-05-30 09:24 pm UTC (link)
Are you actually sincere with this question?

Um, well, rather than attempt to ask the question, you ask a question about the question. But this isn't the one you want to ask, the question you want to ask is: "why do you ask that question?" I'd rather hear the answer, but the reason I ask it is, of course, because I think the answer will be illuminating.

I know what I mean when I say things like I have two beliefs in conflict. What I mean is something figurative, and that, in actual fact, I most certainly do not believe that I have two beliefs which are in conflict. I might mean that I am torn in two directions, that I am confused, that I believe one thing some days and a different thing other days, or something still other. But in the strict sense, I don't think I ever have two beliefs which are actually in conflict, at the same time.

Are you really not understanding what she's talking about?

Well, that's a mean question! But the frank answer: I don't think she understands what she's talking about. But I don't want to say a mean thing like that. I'd much rather simply ask her for clarification. This is no attempted insult of Darlene; I think it's something that almost everyone is deeply confused about (including myself, no doubt), and much profit could be had by trying to clear up the confusion.

Saying that it's a "distraction" to identify the difference between habits, expectations, and beliefs, seems to me to want to paper over all the interesting questions by making up a word ("beliefs"?) which is supposed to include all those as if they were the same.

Indeed, that's the point. Saying that when someone has two opposed beliefs, that it's really a matter of having a habit which is at odds with one's considered judgments, is very different from saying that one has different judgments at different times, which in turn is very different from saying that one has "cortical" and "limbic system" beliefs going on at the same time (with I-don't-know-what status).

So, yes, exactly, I don't have a clue what Darlene is saying, but I would like to.

So I repeat the question: what, exactly, is supposed to be going on when I supposedly have two beliefs which are in conflict? Can you give an example?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Two different beliefs - [info]cakmpls, 2005-06-04 07:22 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Two different beliefs - [info]thomb, 2005-06-04 09:38 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Two different beliefs - [info]cakmpls, 2005-06-04 09:46 am UTC (Expand)

[info]darlene_ford
2005-05-31 06:16 pm UTC (link)
Have you read John Ratey's "A User's Guide to the Human Brain"? It reviews the relevant neurological research much better than I could. But, yes, there is solid science behind the idea that you do different sorts of thinking with different parts of your brain.

If you are talking about a difference between "emotional attitudes" and belief, you may define belief in a somewhat more intellectual way than I do. Do you consider Pavlovian conditioning to be "belief" or an "emotional attitude"?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]thomb
2005-05-31 06:46 pm UTC (link)
Sure, I've read that, it's an interesting book. Some of it is probably true, and some of it is probably false. I don't see how it helps us in the present case.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Pavlovian conditioning." I mean, that's a phenomenon, isn't it? Maybe you're asking about what the state is that Pavlovian conditioning is supposed to produce. In that case, I'm not sure I have considered the question.

By a belief I mean, well, a belief. A judgment about what is true and what is false, which judgment might be correct or not. I don't mean something like a disposition or a tendency (not even a disposition or a tendency to assert something, since I can believe something and yet have no intention of ever speaking it).

So I'd like to understand what you mean, but I think it is unlikely to help to try and tell me a neurological story or to give something equally general and uncertain.

If you're using the word "belief" to refer to a whole bunch of different sorts of things, that's ok, but then what we need to do is start sorting out those different sorts of things so that I can understand better. As I understand what belief is, it seems to me to be impossible to have two contrary beliefs at the same time. (While I certainly can have contrary dispositions to act at the same time, for example--that I understand.)

I can guess (from your reference to Ratey) that what you describe as a "limbic system belief" is something I wouldn't understand as a belief at all. Another way to get at the problem here is to look at your first sentence, where you speak of someone being told something by their limbic system or their cortex.

Ok, that's fine, two different things telling me something. Now, which one do I believe? That's the question.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]thomb
2005-05-30 09:26 pm UTC (link)
I must second [info]dpolicar. I'm happy to have a discussion about the questions here, but I will not entertain a judgment about what my ego depends on from a near stranger. This is not a personal conversation, and I don't consent to it becoming one. If there is no way to have it without pretending to psychologize me, then we should not have it at all.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]thomb
2005-05-31 06:50 pm UTC (link)
No wonder he's confused about what he believes.

I would say that I don't think he's confused about what he believes. I know what it is to be confused (I might be confused about the President's mental state, say), but in that case I don't have any beliefs about it at all. To be confused about what one believes could mean that one is just confused (and has no beliefs about the matter), or that one has beliefs, but one is confused about just what beliefs they are.

I'm not sure any of those possibilities are right. The case I think is most interesting is the case where the person is asserting a belief ("I believe that XXX"), doing so honestly, and yet they don't actually have that belief. It might be right to say that they are incorrect about their beliefs (they don't believe P, but they think they do) or it might be that they are confused. Regardless, I'm not so much interested in their internal state, as much as to understand why they have that state.

A brain-science story doesn't help much in answering that question. I could ask why I say that my mother loves me, and a brain-science answer will talk about neurons and conditioning and what-not, and never quite get to the point that I have a belief which I'm expressing. I'm looking for that kind of explanation, which is an elusive target indeed.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]en_ki
2005-05-31 01:09 pm UTC (link)
Contradictions or not aside, I have a pretty straightforward problem with (at least OT) literalism: someone has a set of explicit instructions, which they claim to believe are literally true statements of what the highest possible authority wants them to do, which direct them to murder me. It is sometimes difficult not to think of such a person as a gibbering maniac who I should never let within shotgun range of me, and it gets under my skin how otherwise reasonable people can speak to them, much less do business with them or vote them into office.

Yes, I'm aware that people often fail to do what they're supposed to. But somehow I'm less happy when what they're failing to do is "stone [info]en_ki and all his friends to death" rather than, say, take all they have and give it to the poor.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]thomb
2005-05-31 04:29 pm UTC (link)
Well, it certainly is worrisome as you say! My point is that they aren't actually literalists. If they were, it would be very worrisome. But they aren't, nobody is.

They claim to be literalists, and they mean it, but they actually aren't.

Also, if you want to sustain your worry in the way you seem to, you have to do your homework too, and it doesn't sanction the idea that they are supposed to murder you. That is, to say that people of category X should be killed is not the same thing as saying that everyone has the right or the duty to kill them. (I think that muggers should be put in jail, but that doesn't mean I think that I have the right to snatch them off the street and hold them in my basement.)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]en_ki
2005-05-31 06:56 pm UTC (link)
If I'm to be killed either way, I'm not too concerned about a difference of process. And of course(?) they don't(?) really mean it; otherwise(?) I would(?) really need that shotgun.

The question marks make tolerance... challenging.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]en_ki
2005-05-31 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. Actually, now you're making me want to ask such people sincerely and directly whether they think I should be killed, and listen to what they say. Sneaky bastard.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]beckyzoole
2005-06-02 01:02 pm UTC (link)
I have given up on trying to carry on an LJ discussion with [info]ozarque, although I do continue to read her journal. (Mostly for the interesting commentary by others, in response to her posts.)

I could spell out the three reasons why I no longer respect her, but will not do so in your blog unless you ask me to. Perhaps I will make a post about this myself... It will have to be later, though, as my break is over and I have to get back to work now.

I find your journal interesting, and I agree with most of your reasoning.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]thomb
2005-06-02 01:08 pm UTC (link)
In the interests of comity, maybe you could email me your reasons? I am very interested.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]thomb
2005-06-03 04:45 pm UTC (link)
I hope that you will please spell out these reasons; it would help me a great deal right now!

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]beckyzoole
2005-06-08 10:24 am UTC (link)
I'm sorry for the long delay. I left for a long-weekend road trip on Friday morning and have been swamped with work since getting back.

I left a series of comments (at the bottom of the thread) in [info]ozarque's journal, which you may be interested in reading.

I find her lack of respect for the LJ communciation style to be annoying, and feel that it is further evidence for her reluctance to learn anything new. Since she is reluctant to learn anything new, she takes disagreements in which she is wrong to be not learning experiences but personal attacks.

Further, she is a linguist but not a professional sociologist, therapist, psychologist, theologian or philosopher. And yet she claims expertise in these fields.

Worst, she has indirectly hurt someone I care about. I have a dear friend whose ex-girlfriend is a dedicated reader of [info]ozarque's books on communication. This ex-girlfriend used many of the commnucations techniques that [info]ozarque recommends to promote healthy relationships, to break his heart. I have seen first-hand the devastating effects produced by someone saying, "No, you don't really love me. If you really loved me, you would do such and such." Yet [info]ozarque persisted in saying that that was a kind, loving, non-hostile thing to say. The ex-girlfriend reads [info]ozarque, and I want to remain on good speaking terms with her, and so I did not go into detail in [info]ozarque's journal about how wrong her advice was... but it is wrong. Terribly wrong. Any decent family therapist could tell you how wrong it is.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]thomb
2005-06-08 11:42 am UTC (link)
Thank you so much both for your comments here and your words on [info]ozarque's journal. You've helped me understand the situation a great deal more.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]cakmpls
2005-06-04 07:38 am UTC (link)
I've read all the above discussion between you and [info]dpolicar, and I think that there is one point that neither of you addresses (although I may have lost the thread somewhere along the way). As I read [info]ozarque's current discussion, her underlying concern is with the fact that language is connected with action: that because people believe that they literally believe the Bible, they behave in certain ways. More specifically, because a large number of people in the U.S. today believe that they literally believe the Bible, they behave in certain ways politically: voters in their voting, officials in their making and application of law.

To what extent the language we know affects the thoughts that we have is still hotly debated, and not just in the field of linguistics. But that the language we know affects the thoughts that we have is probable. (Anyone who has tried to communicate an abstract idea to, or receive one from, someone with whom one has no common language is likely to consider this more than probable.) So I think that the interweaving of language-thought-behavior is at much the province of linguistics as of any other field--but no more so than the province of psychology, philosophy, political science, and many others.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]thomb
2005-06-04 09:40 am UTC (link)
Indeed, but I'm not sure how linguistic analysis of the Bible is going to help with this project. (It might help with other projects, which is one thing dpolicar wanted to make sure I knew.)

See, if there are a lot of people who vote for GWB and against gay marriage because the Bible tells them to, it isn't going to be because of any particular passage which mentions GWB or gay marriage (since neither are mentioned). That's a very rough cartoon of what deserves a longer reply, but I hope it gives the idea.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]cakmpls
2005-06-04 09:47 am UTC (link)
Well, sure. But when one's only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]cakmpls, 2005-06-04 11:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]thomb, 2005-06-04 11:37 am UTC (Expand)

Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…