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Mar. 18th, 2004

  • 1:19 PM
me bw
Things my hypothetical son will hypothetically say when he's 25:
"My mom... yeah she was odd. She'd dress me in pink, as a baby, and then when people would say, Oh, what a pretty little girl she'd say Actually, he's a pretty little boy, thanks. Then when they'd get all indignant that she was causing me trauma, she'd say I'm not the one causing him trauma, morons who prejudge based on a dye color, they might be causing him some trauma. My mom was a little weird... yeah, I turned out just fine... but my mom was a little bit different."

If you think gender socialization is fakery, or something crazy feminists made up, just walk down the aisles of the local Toys-r-Us. Sometimes I understand why some mothers take on the incredible burden of home schooling.

Last night we went out to Sullivan's. Yup, we went to a bar and steak house with a name like Sullivan's on St. Patrick's day. I was itchy until we got seated, but once we did it was smooth sailing. But getting me to go out on any "holiday" is getting more and more difficult, let me tell you.

Whatever sick is going around, it might have got me. Coughing, sore throat. Bleh.

Comments

[info]zanramon wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 10:33 am (UTC)
Sullivan's last night was a lot of fun.. thanks again for putting that together :)
[info]snidegrrl wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 10:36 am (UTC)
Glad you could make it. I will defiantely let you know about future Laurel gatherings!
(no subject) - [info]meercat - Mar. 18th, 2004 11:00 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]traceracer - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:24 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:29 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]traceracer - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:31 am (UTC) Expand
[info]pictsy wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 10:51 am (UTC)
the gender color/clothing thing
While I totally agree (duh) that the gendered color-symbol-clothing-identification traditions can be part of the structure of inequality, I have a problem with parents who use their kids to make a statement, like sending a boy to kindergarten wearing a flowery shirt, without explaining to the kid what's going on, and without asking if it's okay with him, knowing all of the context and social consequences. Of course the baby thing is totally different, since babies aren't held accountable for their clothing.
[info]tomorrow_devil wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 11:41 am (UTC)
counterpoint
Gender is totally imaginary, has nothing to do with your sex organs, and people need to recognize. I don't think you or anyone owes anything to a violent structure.
Re: counterpoint - [info]pictsy - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:29 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]oontzgrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:31 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]cheetahmaster - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:45 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]pictsy - Mar. 24th, 2004 06:21 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:16 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]mrspookybattie - Mar. 18th, 2004 07:41 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:16 am (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:28 am (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]mrspookybattie - Mar. 19th, 2004 02:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]mpeg2tom - Mar. 19th, 2004 12:56 am (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]pictsy - Mar. 24th, 2004 07:24 pm (UTC) Expand
intent, Thomas - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 24th, 2004 09:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]oontzgrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:44 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:58 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]oontzgrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:14 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:19 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]oontzgrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:30 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]oontzgrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 02:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:36 am (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 02:51 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]judithiscariot - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:46 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: counterpoint - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 02:07 pm (UTC) Expand
gender and violent structure - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:51 am (UTC) Expand
thank you - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 10:17 am (UTC) Expand
Re: thank you - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 10:22 am (UTC) Expand
Re: thank you - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 10:34 am (UTC) Expand
Re: thank you - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 11:01 am (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]judithiscariot - Mar. 19th, 2004 10:37 am (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 10:50 am (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]judithiscariot - Mar. 19th, 2004 11:18 am (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 11:54 am (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]squeegibo - Mar. 19th, 2004 12:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 01:23 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]judithiscariot - Mar. 19th, 2004 02:03 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 02:28 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 03:04 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]judithiscariot - Mar. 19th, 2004 03:10 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 03:13 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]judithiscariot - Mar. 19th, 2004 12:17 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 02:54 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 02:56 pm (UTC) Expand
Re: gender and violent structure - [info]judithiscariot - Mar. 19th, 2004 03:15 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]snidegrrl wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 12:53 pm (UTC)
Re: the gender color/clothing thing
I see what you are saying, and I am of two minds:

I am not using my kids as a statement, and once they are of an age to make choices for themselves, fine. I see it as dressing my kids with a conscience, and it will go hand in hand with teaching my kids with a conscience and living with a conscience. Also. If it doesn't start somewhere, how will it EVER CHANGE?

OTOH, I don't want my kids to be hurt and ridiculed by conformist assholes, but the world is full of conformist assholes, and that's not my kids fault. It's not my fault either. I find it hard to understand, even though I see the logic, that I should feel responsible for the actions and words of insenitive assholes.

But in the realm of reality, if my say kindergarten age kid went to school wearing something that did not fit his or her gender role and was ridiculed for it, I'd certainly be choosing from one of a number of options: taking them out of that school, trying to complain with the school officials, conforming. And my reaction might be a combination of all three.

Now if my teenage kid came home from school crying because he wore a skirt and the other kids mocked him, we'd have a long talk about it and see if he wanted to fight it, or let it go for now.

Yes it depends on the age. The school. The specific circumstance. But my point was twofold:

1. Our gender socialization is arbitrary and anachronistic.
2. If it doesn't start changing somehow, it never will.
Re: the gender color/clothing thing - [info]castironskillet - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:15 am (UTC) Expand
Re: the gender color/clothing thing - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:25 am (UTC) Expand
but! - [info]castironskillet - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:30 am (UTC) Expand
Re: but! - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 10:13 am (UTC) Expand
Re: but! - [info]castironskillet - Mar. 19th, 2004 10:17 am (UTC) Expand
Re: but! - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 19th, 2004 10:20 am (UTC) Expand
Re: the gender color/clothing thing - [info]pictsy - Mar. 24th, 2004 07:03 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]judithiscariot wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 10:59 am (UTC)
If I choose to dress my son in pink, and some mouthbreathing idiot stranger comes up to me in public and sees fit to comment on my adorable daughter, I will say "thank you" and then I will walk away.

Because I have absolutely no energy to try to teach Joe Random a lesson in gender socialization NOW, and I don't even have an infant keeping me up all night.

My kids will probably hate me.
[info]judithiscariot wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 11:09 am (UTC)
Also I would like to point out that what bothers me much more than gender typing via clothing is this whole thing where you can't buy clothes for your kid that don't have Spongebob Squarepants or some similar crap all over them.

I refuse to let my kids be walking billboards for Nickelodoen. Or even PBS.

Yep, my kids are gonna hate me.
(no subject) - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:02 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]eeedge wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 11:28 am (UTC)
With my older daughter, I dressed her in blues and greens almost exclusively for the first three years. Her hair didn't grow quickly, so I frequently got compliments on my cute son (to which I would smile and thank the complimenter, generally).

But the moment she got choice in her own clothing, she elected to go with *cringe* pinks and oranges. It makes me weep!
(no subject) - [info]snidegrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:44 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]snidegrrl wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 12:45 pm (UTC)
I have a strong feeling of need to teach Joe Random lots of things. :)

My kids are TOTALLY going to hate me. Until they have the wisdom of hindsight. Or something.
(no subject) - [info]judithiscariot - Mar. 18th, 2004 01:06 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]oontzgrrl wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 11:18 am (UTC)
Gender socialization most definatly happens but I still believe that there is something about the idea that often girls and boys can be different from one another. I'm actually the product of a child who's mother tried very hard to keep that gender crap out of the house. My room was orange and green and yellow :::shudder::: because my mom refused to do the pink thing, my brother and I got a lot of the same "gender neutral" toys when we were very young, and then allowed to make our own choices as we grew up. By 8 I finally got my wish to have a pink room, and grow my hair long instead of the awful short thing my mom put on me. On the other hand, while I adored my barbies, I also insisted on transformers and toy cars so maybe it worked a little.

I geuss what I am saying is, while trying to provide a gender neutral environment for your child is a decent thing, listen to what they want as well. If the boy still decides to play football, or the girl decides she wants tea sets and dolls, let them be that person too.
[info]snidegrrl wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 12:44 pm (UTC)
Well for my part I always wanted to wear pants and play with boys' toys and for the most part my parents let me run free with it but I strongly remember my mother refusing to buy me men's cologne because it was for men and why would a girl ever want to wear that. My mom would have been happier with a girly girl (I have a feeling), but she still lets me know she loves me and is proud of me.

I like to think I would never tell my kids "no" in regards to something perfectly reasonable, and encourage them to be whoever they are, even if that falls into the pretty pink pony princess area. :)
(no subject) - [info]oontzgrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:51 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]cheetahmaster - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:53 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]oontzgrrl - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:58 pm (UTC) Expand
[info]frecklefaerie wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 11:23 am (UTC)
Along Judy's lines... Maggie has a male friend who is one year older to the day. So, she has a lot of hand-me-downs from said friend. I got sick and tired of strangers telling me how cute my son was, and whe corrected them telling me I ought to pierce her ears so they can tell, so I gave into the pink (well, purple because it looks better on her) and dresses and ponytails. She does wear "masculine" pajamas, because, well, they were on sale, and because there was one with a dinosaur! And one with a dragon!

But when she falls down, I tell her to shake it off when it isn't serious. I tell her all the time she is big and strong and smart. We play with cars and blocks. But she also brushes my hair, and her own hair. She likes to play a game where we take turns kissing a doll saying, "Aw." Yesterday she attended a St. Patrick's day party, and ended up hovering around the six year old boys playing a board game as opposed to the multi-aged girls doing crafts.

Promoting gender neutral stuff is a good idea, but I would rather teach Maggie that she isn't hindered by being a girl. That she doesn't have to be a boy in order to feel good about herself.

And secretly I hope she is gay so she doesn't get knocked up before she's ready.
[info]judithiscariot wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 11:57 am (UTC)
SOMEONE TOLD YOU YOU SHOULD PIERCE YOUR CHILD'S EARS SO THEY COULD TELL THAT SHE'S A GIRL?%@#%~@#!? RAGE@!%%!@!

What on earth would make someone pierce a child's ears before s/he asks for it and understands that it's going to hurt and needs to be kept clean etc etc. I think *that* particular comment might get some really scathing uncalled-for public excoriation of said Meddling Mouthbreather. Anyone sticks a needle in my baby and it had better be a vaccination.

Anyway, my mom dressed me in pink. See how feminine I am?
(no subject) - [info]frecklefaerie - Mar. 18th, 2004 12:06 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]grrangela - Mar. 19th, 2004 05:14 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]frecklefaerie - Mar. 19th, 2004 06:32 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]bizarrojack - Mar. 19th, 2004 02:32 pm (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]grrangela - Mar. 20th, 2004 06:41 am (UTC) Expand
(no subject) - [info]tomorrow_devil - Mar. 19th, 2004 09:59 am (UTC) Expand
[info]snidegrrl wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 12:40 pm (UTC)
I'm not saying never dress your son in blue or your daughter in pink, I'm just saying I am not going to be afraid to mix it up.

Promoting gender neutral stuff is a good idea, but I would rather teach Maggie that she isn't hindered by being a girl. That she doesn't have to be a boy in order to feel good about herself.

This is a good way of putting it. I also want to get across that I do not directly associate masculine and feminine with boy and girl, so that puts a whole other spin on it... people can get confused and interpret the word "girl" to mean "possess feminine traits and behaviors" and boy/masculine, etc. Ya know?
[info]boymonster wrote:
Mar. 18th, 2004 11:33 am (UTC)
My boy is cooler than all the other boys.

So there.