Rilina ([info]rilina) wrote,
@ 2005-06-23 23:48:00
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Entry tags:identity issues, marriage, race/ethnicity/culture

Some thoughts on interracial dating
This is a response to Hugo Schwyzer's post Dating to disappoint and the Bulworth solution. In this post, Hugo writes:

I get very, very angry when I hear of parents forbidding their children to date someone because they didn't meet the right ethnic profile. As far as I'm concerned, it's pure unadulterated racism. Real tolerance must be about more than being willing to share public space with folks of other ethnicities, it must also be about the willingness to welcome them into one's family and rejoice when they become the spouses of one's children and the parents of the grandkids. I'm convinced that that's true, and I admit I see interracial/interethnic marriage as a fundamental social good. How else can we fully eradicate racial and ethnic prejudice save through mixed marriages?

I encourage you to read the entire post before reading my reaction; I'm sure the above quote and the quotes that follow can't give a complete sense of what the post says.

I was shocked by my own viscerally negative response to Hugo's post. After all, when I've had friends whose parents have objected to my friends dating and/or marrying outside their own race or ethnic group, my sympathies have been entirely with the children. (Heck, most of my friends predict that if I marry it won't be to another Korean American, which means I may very well find myself on the receiving end of parental disapproval someday. My brother already has.) Shouldn't I have been cheering at Hugo's post? Yet I wasn't; in fact, I could have almost categorized my response as offended. So I refrained from commenting and took some time to work through what I was thinking.

And after sorting through my reactions, I came to the following conclusion: what I found problematic about Hugo's post was the way he described interracial dating and marriage as a "fundamental social good." To me, interracial dating and marriage is a morally neutral choice, no better and no worse than dating within one's race or ethnic group. To me, dating someone outside one's race or ethnic group is no more a morally-loaded choice than dating someone who sings well or dating someone who likes baseball. Certainly there are greater social implications to interracial dating than there are to baseball fan dating, but social implications do not by themselves give the choice to date within or without one's race or ethnic group a moral value.

Now Hugo sees interracial dating marriage as a "fundamental social good" because it is part of what he calls the Bulworth solution. In that movie, the title character says, "Everybody just got to keep fucking everybody till we're all the same color." In other words, Bulworth's and Hugo's solution to racism is the melting pot: eliminate those distinctions, and we'll all just get along by default.

To me, that sounds an awful lot like, "Hey, Rilina, those racists can't deal with the fact that you're Korean American, that you're different from them. So you'll have to become more like them, and they'll have to become more like you, just so we can have a world they can cope with." Or, "Hey, Rilina, if you choose to marry another Korean American, you're being unenlightened. It's so close-minded of you to cling to your ethnic and racial identity by doing that. Don't you know that you'd be making the world a better place by having beautiful mixed babies? I'm sorry if you actually decided that you love that Korean guy; you really need to just get with the program." The Bulworth solution essentially appears to be an accommodation of racism. God forbid the racists actually have to be the people who change. God forbid they learn to cope with my being entirely yellow. God forbid my kids turn out to be entirely yellow too; why there'd be a whole extra generation of those yellow people for those racists to deal with.

To say interracial dating and marriage is a "fundamental social good" inevitably implies, however unintentionally, that non-interracial dating is somehow a less valid choice.

I don't think for one minute, of course, that those things are what Hugo intended to say with his post. I'm very much aware that my reactions are a product of the baggage I brought to reading that post. But I don't think that baggage is all that uncommon among people of color, especially women of color. Assimilation doesn't look nearly as appealing from the minority's point of view. We minorities have lots of reasons to fear that word; we lose more, sometimes all. So at the end of the day, the fantasy of complete homogeneity is always going to look better to the majority culture than the minority cultures.

It's certainly not that I think that Asian and Asian American (and those are two separate things, don't make any mistake about that) cultures are perfect creations that needed to be protected against all encroachment. Far from it. I am certainly well aware of the problematic aspects of Asian and Asian American culture. But I don't think replacing flawed Asian cultural values with flawed Western cultural values is an improvement. That's just replacing one idol with another.

So as I said, when tensions over interracial dating and marriage have arisen in the families of my friends, my sympathies are with the children. But I refuse to just dismiss the parents' attitudes as "pure unadulterated racism." I know too much to feel so superior. The parents' attitude goes beyond fear and bigotry. Thus the Bulworth solution, at the end of the day, just strikes me as impossibly simple, impossibly naive.

And one last thought, though I've probably provided enough fuel for a thousand flame wars already. (Be nice in the comments; I'm not afraid to delete anything offensive.) Hugo does bring in a religious perspective to his posts, which is one reason I read his blog. In this post, he writes:
The historian in me and the Christian in me regard ethnic distinctives (other than food and innocuous holiday customs) with suspicion. How can we form religious and political unity when we still hold historic allegiances to our own ethnic group, I wonder?

I'll certainly acknowledge there's a whole lot of validity to that suspicion. Christianity does challenge the supremacy of ethnic traditions and cultures, just as it challenges the ultimate supremacy of the family unit. For believers, the first loyalty is to God, not our race or ethnicity. But the images of unity that we find in the Bible are not based on everyone being the same color. Rather, they are visions of unity in Christ in which differences are transcended but not eliminated. The temple is a "house of prayer for all peoples" (Isaiah 56.5); the nations come together, but they are not homogeneous. And consider the miracle of Pentecost. It is not a matter of everyone suddenly learning one master tongue, a pidgin of all their native languages combined. Rather, the Holy Spirit bestows upon the apostles the ability to speak in the many other languages of the crowd. Instead of the reversal of Babel, we have the redemption of what happened there. The Bulworth solution is a cheap shortcut, a way to avoid actually learning to talk to and live with and love people who are different from us in culture/race/ethnicity/class/whatever.

Various disclaimers and things I don't have time to cover here:

1. The issue of inter-religious relationships are raised in Hugo's post as well. I don't have the energy to touch that here, other than to say that I see that as an entirely separate issue.

2. I know race is a social construct that has no basis in science, but for the purposes of this sort of discussion, the fact that most people have accepted that construct makes it real enough to discuss.

3. I still want to respond to [info]oyceter and [info]yhlee's posts (see link roundup here), but I also need to sleep tonight. As a sorta third culture kid, my identification of myself as Asian, Asian American, and/or American gets very complicated. For the purposes of this discussion, Asian American is the simplest way to put it. But more on that anon.


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[info]oyceter
2005-06-24 04:29 am UTC (link)
I am also of mixed mind when it comes to interracial dating. Of course, I objected very vocally when my mother once said that she would most want me to marry a nice Chinese guy, maybe white, black or Muslim, out of the question. On the other hand, dating the boy (who was white) had its own set of difficulties ... not that interracial dating is more or less difficult than non-interracial dating, but that it carries a different set of difficulties. And of course, the caveat that my interracial dating experience is by no means representative.

It's also interesting because I know several TCK friends like me who only want to date non-Asians, as well as TCK friends like me who only want to date other TCK kids, or TCK kids who only want to date Asian (be it Asian, Asian-American or TCK).

With my one interracial dating experience, some of the most difficult things were the smallest things -- frex, me craving Chinese food most of the time and him craving American fare most of the time and never really being able to agree on what to eat. Ok, maybe this was not such a small thing for me, given how much brainspace I dedicate to food ;). But there were just so many assumptions that I had (I expect that probably he had them too), so many things that I didn't even think about as "Chinese" or "Asian" or "different" until confronted with something else. And of course, there's the whole awkward family introduction thing and differences in how to treat people of my parents' generation.

And, of course, the larger issue of culture and heritage and all that baggage... what language will the children (if there are any) speak? Is it biased of me to want my children to know Chinese, even though my Chinese is rather poor? Do I want to make them into TCKs like me and deprive them of feeling at home in one country? How will they ever talk to my parents if they don't know Chinese (not that much of an issue with my family, but I remember not being able to really talk with any of my grandparents because of the language issue)? And it's the fact that no matter what decision I end up making, some part of me will always question how it looks from the race or culture perspective. I think it's that last bit that weighs on me the most, because if I were born and raised in Taiwan and married someone born and raised in Taiwan or if I were born white in America from a family who has been here for a while and married another person like that, that questioning state wouldn't be the default. Well, I exaggerate, because I am sure that there are many other issues, given Taiwan political climate nowadays and people of German-, Irish-, etc.- descent.

Re: the bit on cultural heritage, ethnic and racial identity -- I will probably never come up with a satisfactory resolution to it, but the closest I've come so far is here. I feel rather weird linking to myself, but it took me a whole bunch of words just to get a sketch of a sentiment out there, and considerable mental effort ;). Anyhow, I get touchy when people comment that I shouldn't cling so closely to ethnic/cultural identity. One person back in my freshman year asked me why I wouldn't become more American and really pushed my buttons. I am continually confused as to how I can espouse to dislike nations and nationality but to still have this notion of cultural heritage... wah. Hopefully this wasn't too confusing...

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[info]telophase
2005-06-24 01:56 pm UTC (link)
I am continually confused as to how I can espouse to dislike nations and nationality but to still have this notion of cultural heritage...

(There's nothing resembling a thread of argument here - I'm just randomly associating things.)

Hazarding a guess - because nations and nationality are only part of cultural heritage? I more-or-less identify as American, but as an academic-town-living Texan, my American experience is radically different than someone on a ranch in Montana or living in downtown Manhattan, on a reservation in Arizona, or in a Japanese-influenced area of a city in Hawaii. And yet all of those have some cultural threads - primarily language and the media, I think; in other words, the stories we tell each other and how we speak and tell them - that make the experiences of all of them different than growing up anywhere in Mexico, or Cuba, or China, or Mozambique.

Even though my family's been here for generations, I still identify to a small extent with Cajuns from Louisiana - my great-grandparents moved to Texas about a hundred years ago - and to Scotland. My grandfather was a member of Clan Fraser, although again that side of the family's been ehre close on 200 years. However, I know that the Scotland I identify with is not the "real" Scotland, inasmuch as there is a "real" Scotland - it's one of legends and fables and lives in the mind. It's all about Highlanders and tartans and whisky and bears about as much resemblance to the daily life of a Glaswegian as mine does to that of a Tibetan yak-herder. But it was sort of interesting to stand in the Prehistoric section of teh National Museum of Scotland, look at the stones brought there from standing-stone circles across Scotland, and think "These are mine - these are from my ancestors," because that's a feeling you just don't get here in the States, since they're so new.

Not that those stones have anything to do with my ancestors, even - the Frasers came over from France in the 1200s. XD But there's a deep cultural connection there, deeper than to anything on this side of the pond.

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[info]telophase
2005-06-24 01:58 pm UTC (link)
* "...you just don't get here in the States, since they're so new."

The States are new, not the standing stones as my grammar seems to say. XD

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[info]rilina
2005-06-24 08:54 pm UTC (link)
I feel like I'll need to write my other post on identity to respond fully to your comment, Oyce! And your other post on cultural borrowing was definitely worth linking to, even if it felt awkward.

One thing that occurred to me while writing this post was how much being a TCK of sorts (I really think we're actually something more like fourth culture kids, but I disgress) makes us so aware of having baggage. That is, before I moved to Korea in high school, I was not super conscious of what being Korean American meant. That was probably also a function of age; I believe I've read somewhere that the teen years do tend to be a time of rediscovering those kinds of roots. Anyway, being aware of that baggage makes us super aware of how flawed both cultures are. It's just impossible for me to sit back and idealize the other cultures the way I feel some non-TCKs do: "Oh, how quaint! Let's coopt the cute parts into our own culture!" I just know life doesn't work like that.

Anyway, more anon. Thanks again for your thoughts and the link.

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ex_greythist387
2005-06-24 04:37 am UTC (link)
To me, interracial dating and marriage is a morally neutral choice, no better and no worse than dating within one's race or ethnic group.

Yes yes. And--

God forbid my kids turn out to be entirely yellow too; why there'd be a whole extra generation of those yellow people for those racists to deal with.

oh, yes.

The chief problem I see with the melty simplification is that "interracial" children do not have the same views about their respective multifaceted heritages. Not by a long shot. Not even blood relatives, who might be said to share some cultural assumptions about family, terms of inclusivity, and contexts for prejudice. Nor, really, does the mainstream see all people of mixed backgrounds in an equal light. Nor is the mainstream monolithic; as someone on lj said fairly recently, people swap in and out. I play someone purely of European descent when I write recommendation letters for my students, unless I say something to disturb the reader's assumptions, because the committee members (if they bother to think about it) have my surname to go by.

By way of sidestepping a coherent response, since I still have work to do, two anecdotal addenda--

Excluding some little half-cousins I've never met, I have one blood relative my generation or older whose first language (like mine) is English. It's my mother's sister's daughter ("cousin-sister"), a few years my senior, and we saw each other frequently growing up. We have nothing like the same views on race, ethnicity, and culture, our own or otherwise. Partly this is because my father's an immigrant and hers was third-gen European American.

I told my mother a few months ago that my current bf was more "my people" than most people I know. She blinked, but conceded. (She's never expressed pickiness re: my boyfriends' cultural backgrounds.) He and I have no inherited ethnicities in common, but we're both part stuff and raised in LA. In terms of self-positioning and how the world sees us individually....

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[info]rilina
2005-06-24 09:02 pm UTC (link)
Nor is the mainstream monolithic; as someone on lj said fairly recently, people swap in and out. I play someone purely of European descent when I write recommendation letters for my students, unless I say something to disturb the reader's assumptions, because the committee members (if they bother to think about it) have my surname to go by.

This is really interesting; if this wasn't in a locked post and you remember where it was, can you point me to it? Though I'm not mixed-race myself, there are ways that I think I pass at times; perhaps this is a function of being of Asian descent in a country where too many people still only see black and white.

He and I have no inherited ethnicities in common, but we're both part stuff and raised in LA. In terms of self-positioning and how the world sees us individually....

It does occur to me that many of the interracial couples I know are ones I've met through Christian circles, and of course that makes perfect sense: the shared beliefs is an instant connection that crosses ethnic and cultural boundaries. Religion is very much, in your terms, a way of self-positioning. There are ways that I feel like my college friends, despite mostly being non-Korean, are very much "my people": our time in college (and often, our shared faith on top of that) gives us a common story.

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ex_greythist387
2005-06-29 08:05 pm UTC (link)
Sorry! Your comment notification was eaten temporarily by e-mail client woes.

Your parallel with shared religious interests makes a great deal of sense to me. I suppose self-positioning is as much about shape and direction of worldview as it is about self-perception.

Re: swapping roles, the post was f-locked, unfortunately.

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[info]mrissa
2005-06-24 12:15 pm UTC (link)
Morally neutral: yes. For sure.

One of my friends in grade school immigrated from China by way of Taiwan when we were that young. We got back in touch a few years ago. She was telling me, over dinner, how much she'd envied the golden curls I'd had as a child. When I tried to tell her how I'd envied her thick black braids, she was having none of it: she had the "wrong" looks, golden-skinned and round-faced and black-haired, and I had the "right" looks, and that was that. But her fiance would clearly rather marry her than me, and not "despite" her very Chinese appearance but in part because of it and what it means to him. He likes it that he doesn't have to explain his immigrant parents' customs to her, and that going to her immigrant parents' house is not one awkward faux pas after another. He likes that their families can talk to each other comfortably. He likes looking across the dinner table and seeing a face with features that feel familiar; he likes the idea that their kids will look like his brothers and her cousins did when they were little. And I can't help but be glad that she has someone who values not just the deeper parts of who she is but also the shallow parts of how she looks, because I think she needs that kind of appreciation. And I'd much rather have it come genuinely from a man who has lots in common with her than from someone who considers her beauty an open-minded moral obligation or an exotic fetish. I think she could have gotten valid appreciation differently from various other ethnicities, but I can't think it's wrong from someone who shares so much with her.

A lot of people would snicker at the idea that [info]markgritter and I have a "mixed" marriage, and we've made a joke of it ourselves, but it's also true. Neither of us is from a "generic white" family. His cultural background is American Dutch Calvinist, quite specifically, and mine is Scandosotan Haugean, and those are not at all the same thing just because both feature blondes and pale brunettes a lot. We've had to teach each other a lot of cultural stuff over the last eight years. We haven't done it because some guy decided it would be for the good of society. We've done it because we love each other, specifically each other, not generic scions of each culture/subculture.

I think the feast of the Lamb will be a potluck.

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[info]telophase
2005-06-24 02:16 pm UTC (link)
The mother of my cousin's child -- it's a weird relationship that nobody, including them I think, is sure about what's going on, but the one irrefutable connection between them is that they have a child together -- is third-generation Chinese (her name is Chinese, but she doesn't speak a word of it and has little interest in her Chinese cultural background). My family is your standard American European-background mutts. My grandmother was a bit taken aback at her newest great-grandchild being Chinese, as she put it, but by the time I saw her the shock of OH MY GOD THEY'RE NOT MARRIED, plus visiting the baby and falling in love with him had overcome the shock of OH MY GOD HE'S CHINESE. Mostly. She spent a lot of time that visit poking me and saying "Now you can tell everyone you know that your cousin is Chinese!"

The kid's now six or so, and he's finally been diagnosed as being somewhere on the autism/Asperger's spectrum, although nobody's willing to say where until he's older. But when he was 1.5-2 years old, and it was becoming very clear that something was not normal about this child, my aunt, his grandmother, was for a short time convinced that it was because his mother, who took care of the kid during the day when my cousin was at work, spoke only Chinese to him at home, which was confusing him. I had to tell my aunt that the kid's mom didn't speak a word of Chinese. (And I know that mixed languages to young children won't confuse them - that's how they learn languages.)

But that was a while ago and my aunt's either gotten over it or has managed to hide it gracefully and the kid's mother is now accepted as part of the family. More or less - it seems to be a revolving relationship, but everyone's just sort of given up on figuring out what's going on and slotted her into "the kid's mother - part of the family" slot. I think they're currently living together, at least Mom gave them dishtowels for Christmas, but I don't know how permanent that's going to be. The weirdness in that relationship and the kid's developmental problems are far more relevant to our daily life than the fact that his ancestors came from China.

Well, that was quite a ramble, wasn't it?

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[info]rilina
2005-06-24 05:23 pm UTC (link)
Your own story is of course another example of why the "Bulworth solution" would be a futile one. Looking generally alike on the outside doesn't necessarily make people generally alike on the inside. I think also of the historic tensions among different East Asian countries; sometimes I can't even tell if an Asian person is Korean or Japanese or Chinese...but there are differences (and lots of ugly history) between those cultures that still have consequences today.

And I'd much rather have it come genuinely from a man who has lots in common with her than from someone who considers her beauty an open-minded moral obligation or an exotic fetish.
I have a long rant on Asian fetishes which I'm saving for my other post on this topic. Grr. Let's just say it starts with the fact that a guy once came up to me at a party and told me, "I love little Asian girls," as if I was supposed to be flattered by that.

I think the feast of the Lamb will be a potluck.
Yes, and not all of the food will be fusion. On the other hand, surely some of it will be.

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[info]mrissa
2005-06-24 05:46 pm UTC (link)
a guy once came up to me at a party and told me, "I love little Asian girls," as if I was supposed to be flattered by that.

"[eyelash flutter] Really? Oh, wow! That's great, because, I, um, [coy look] I love assholes."

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[info]veejane
2005-06-24 01:44 pm UTC (link)
The assumption that race-mixing = fundamental social good is, as you say, foolish in terms of social good. But it's also foolish on its face: the underlying assumption is that every member of a given ethnicity is alike, and that mixing will increase the alikeness among groups.

But people are individuals, and Your Family Crazy (everybody has at least one) is not automatically correlated to your race or ethnicity. And anyone marrying into a family gets to learn how to handle the Family Crazy in his/her own, new way. Maybe sometimes race or religion or social class is a part of the Family Crazy, but maybe it's only a footnote to all the other psychodrama that happens in a household.

there are greater social implications to interracial dating than there are to baseball fan dating

Except during a pennant race. (You know I had to say it.)

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[info]rilina
2005-06-24 05:17 pm UTC (link)
Very good points. Cultures and ethnicities aren't monolithic, and neither are people. That is, sometimes the Family Crazy isn't crazy 24 hours a day; sometimes they're nice Aunt Ethel or Grandpa Jim for a good 12-16 hours of it. That's one reason I reacted so strongly to Hugo's post; though I disagree strongly with parents who put that sort of pressure on their children, I just can't find it in my heart to utterly condemn them.

Except during a pennant race. (You know I had to say it.)
:) I'm not above throwing in a side joke for the benefit of the flist, even in the middle of an otherwise serious post.

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[info]forodwaith
2005-06-24 02:50 pm UTC (link)
eliminate those distinctions, and we'll all just get along by default

'Cause if we end up "all the same colour", we'll never find something else on which to base discrimination? Yeah, right.

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[info]rilina
2005-06-24 05:04 pm UTC (link)
'Cause if we end up "all the same colour", we'll never find something else on which to base discrimination? Yeah, right.

Of course. It's not as if people who look alike--say East Asians--discriminate amongst themselves....oh wait. They do. And have for centuries.

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[info]yhlee
2005-06-24 05:51 pm UTC (link)
It's not as if people who look alike--say East Asians--discriminate amongst themselves....oh wait. They do. And have for centuries.
Yes, I was going to say! Except you beat me to it. Joe got educated very quickly on historical Korea-Japan tensions, for example.

I have met people who have no idea that Japan occupied Korea, for example, and why there would be tension from that. I'm not hugely bothered by this per se--I mean, I'm not exactly well-read on the history of Bulgaria (and I should resume reading World Book for basic geographic/national literacy)--but I am perturbed, as people have pointed out, that there's this assumption that appearances translate to culture.

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-06-24 08:51 pm UTC (link)
I don't think mixed marriage is the solution to racial tension, but will tend to be more prevalent in places where there's both lots of racial mixing and little racism. So to think of it as the solution to racism is getting the causation backwards.

Also, I think it would be quite sad if we had a single ethnic culture rather than lots of them, even if it was the result of the end of racism. I too think intermarriage is morally neutral in individual cases, but a lot of interracial relationships in a given society are a positive sign that the races in that society don't hate each other, on average... and yet I would hope that the intermarriage rate as a whole doesn't get so high that entire cultures are lost. True, new cultures would be created, but the conservative in me (literal conservative rather than political) would like to keep the old ones too.

This is, of course, extremely relevant to me as a Jew-- we do tend to intermarry a lot, which I think is a positive thing about our cultural value of not being prejudiced. But I would hate to see non-Israeli Jewish culture get married out of existence... but I also wouldn't want to keep it if the only way to do so was to try to stop Jews from marrying whoever they happen to love.

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[info]ericisrad
2005-06-24 09:44 pm UTC (link)
Christianity does challenge the supremacy of ethnic traditions and cultures, just as it challenges the ultimate supremacy of the family unit. For believers, the first loyalty is to God, not our race or ethnicity. But the images of unity that we find in the Bible are not based on everyone being the same color. Rather, they are visions of unity in Christ in which differences are transcended but not eliminated.

First of all, this is absolutely beautiful. Thank you.

Secondly, I completely agree that interracial dating is a morally neutral thing, and I agree that it's not something that we should be doing. However, if it does happen, then so what. You rightly point out what happens when the other direction can be taken and we're suddenly faulted for marrying somebody of our own ethnicity.

Lastly, this is something that rings very close to home for me. When I was in high school, I dated a Chinese American girl for roughly 16 months. While she was ethnically 100% Chinese as far as I knew, she actually sounded more "American" than I did, and culturally, she was very American as well, so my parents weren't completely rejecting of her at first.

However, while the attitude of my parents and grandparents didn't break us up (she cheated on me and left for another guy), they definitely used their racism as a wedge in our relationship when things did get very bad towards the end. My dad said things like, "She's cute, but just you don't ever marry her." My grandmother said something very close to "You aren't going to marry her, are you? You'll get slanty-eyed children!"

My own father's racism isn't really something he tries to hide. He often refers to Mexicans that live in their hometown as "spics" and "wetbacks", and he automatically assumes that anybody who doesn't share his skin colour is inherently lazy, although he thinks differently about Japanese, but that's a different story (truth is, the people who are not as priviledged as him most likely work much harder than my dad to even get by!). Oddly, though, my mom never felt the same way as my dad, even though it was my mom's mother who told me not to have any "slanty eyed" children.

While their remarks had no final say in the end of our relationship, they haunted me and continue to haunt me to this day. I'm now in a very serious relationship with an amazing woman (18 months now, and she's of German descent so my dad "approves"), but before we started dating, whenever I felt attracted to or interested in somebody who did not share my own skin color, a wave of totally false guilt swept over me. I've obviously never been racist (I sure hope not, if my relationship in high school meant anything), but because of the sins of my father and grandmother, I always knew that I would never be fully accepted by members of my own family if I persued certain desires. It made me feel wrongfully and unnecessarily dirty. My family's racism continues to tear me up to this day in other ways (the dinner table around holidays feels always on edge when my dad talks about his coworkers).

In conclusion, I don't think I'm wimping out in being with the amazing woman I'm with, nor do I feel like I was doing something "more than neutral" when I dated that one girl in high school. The problem, of course, comes when people use boundaries as idols to bifurcate and hate people when those boundaries are all completely arbitrary anyway, as Christ has shown us.

Thank you again for your post.

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[info]ilanabean42
2005-06-25 03:58 am UTC (link)
I can definitely see why you'd have a problem with that post. I don't think it's fair of parents to forbid their children to date anyone of a different ethnic group, but I don't agree that refusing to do interracial dating is equivalent to racism, full stop.

It's not quite the same thing, but the American Jewish community has made a big deal of the fact that lately a significant number of Jews have been marrying non-Jews. If you're not seriously religious, this isn't forbidden, but it tends to lead to children being raised largely unreligious. I don't have a problem with this on religious grounds, but children losing their cultural heritage like that makes me sad. I don't know if I would only be willing to marry someone Jewish in order to be able to raise my children like I was raised, and to keep my religion (which is really more of a cultural group) from being completely assimilated into melting-pot American society.

I think a lot of it depends on the reasoning. If someone says "Don't date non-Asians because they're horrible people", that's racism. If someone says "Don't date non-Asians because then your children will become part of the melting pot and lose most of their culture", it's justifiable, at least. It's hard to say the second because it can easily be regarded as racism too, but I think it's valid. I much prefer the country/world being a mosaic instead of a melting pot where everyone's exactly the same.

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[info]thistlemeg
2005-06-25 04:10 am UTC (link)
Well said. I really don't like the idea of any certain kind of marriage or relationship being defined as a "fundamental social good"; when relationships work, they work, and when they don't, they don't, and we all have to figure that out for ourselves.

I have to say, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on inter-religious relationships sometime. One of my friends recently stated that she could never marry anyone who wasn't also Catholic; not because she discriminates against non-Catholics, which she certainly doesn't, but because faith has to be the most important thing in marriage for her. I pointed out that I, personally, feel that a relationship could be built around a difference in faiths, but she was pretty adamant that her idea of marriage includes a strong grounding in shared Catholic faith. And I wasn't sure what to think, especially since I do have two Catholic parents.

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[info]rilina
2005-06-25 12:46 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure I'm going to post separately on the inter-religious relationships--big can of worms!--but I mostly agree with your friend. I saw this being discussed on a different blog (actually, in the comments of the post to which I was responded) and one commenter asked, "Jesus told his followers to give themselves entirely to him, and also that husband and wife are one flesh. How can you give yourself wholly to Jesus if you've conceded part of your flesh to another god? I must admit I'm mystified."

That pretty much sums up how I feel. I don't think marrying someone who isn't Christian is just going to be compatible with how I understand marriage or Christianity. This doesn't mean, of course, that I can't marry someone who differs from me on some smaller points of theology. (Denominations mean little to me, especially since I wasn't raised in the church, so lack any longterm association with one.) But the big ones, like the nature of salvation? I think we'd need to basically agree. As far as Christianity goes, I think some people do find themselves able to reconcile their faith with inter-religious marriage because they have more universalist conceptions of salvation, but that's just not who I happen to be.

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