Randy McDonald ([info]rfmcdpei) wrote,
@ 2005-07-23 09:10:00
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Current mood:lucky, and angry

[BLOG-LIKE POSTING] The Wider Problem With Muslim Homophobia
I was saddened, though not altogether surprised, when Ikram Saeed recently commented that criticizing those Muslims who believed that their religion requires the ritualized torture-killings of non-heterosexuals is an act of racism. I say "not altogether surprised," since Ikram had earlier commented that people victimized under shari'a law were "wimpy" if they lacked the capital--social, economic, political--that they needed to escape. This sort of morally blind privatization of public goods that ends with the privatization of human rights, the kind of process that reduces rights from universal goods to things that you can have only if you were lucky, serves bigots' ends quite nicely.

Infinitely more politely, in the same thread [info]skooshje asked why, exactly, the statements of New Zealand parliamentarian Ashraf Choudhary that he favoured the ritual torture-killing of non-heterosexuals by stoning in countries under shari'a law were newsworthy. One very good reason is that these religious prejudices are being enthusiastically enacted as criminal law in the Muslim world, right now.



The recent execution by hanging of two gay teenagers in the northeastern Iranian city of Mashhad on what seemed to be trumped-up criminal charges is, sadly, not atypical in Iran, where up to four thousand people have been executed since 1979 on grounds of their sexual orientation. As Johann Hari wrote a while back, the Muslim world is characterized by pervasive and violent homophobia.

All of the seven countries that treat homosexuality as a crime punishable by death are Muslim. Of the 82 countries where being gay is a crime, 36 are predominantly Muslim.

Even in democratic societies, Islam remains overwhelmingly anti-gay. Dr Muzammil Siddiqi, director of the Islamic Society of North America, says "homosexuality is a moral disease, a sin, a corruption. No person is born homosexual, just as nobody is born a thief, a liar or a murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."

Sheikh Sharkhawy, a cleric at the prestigious London Central Mosque in Regent's Park, compares homosexuality to a "cancer tumour." He argues "we must burn all gays to prevent paedophilia and the spread of AIDS," and says gay people "have no hope of a spiritual life." The Muslim Educational Trust hands out educational material to Muslim teachers--intended for children!--advocating the death penalty for gay people, and advising Muslim pupils to stay away from gay classmates and teachers.


Christianity certainly has its issues, and leaders of certain Christian sects are certainly unwilling to take their right responsibility for epiphenomena like gaybashing. It's worth noting, though, that Christian Reconstructionism is a theology decidedly in the minority. Take the story of the unfortunate teenager Zack, unfortunate enough to be born to conservative Christian parents. He wasn't afraid that he'd be murdered; rather, he was afraid of being dispatched to a reeducation camp by his father. This isn't good. It would also be churlish to deny that this isn't murder.

When respected and supposedly respectable Muslim clerics like Dr. Yusuf al-Qaradawi feel free to publically advocate the murder of homosexuals in order to restore an antique purity to society, along with the limited domestic abuse of women, female genital mutilation, committing genocide against Israelis, and murdering apostates, it seems safe to conclude that a disturbingly large chunk of the world's Muslim population have very serious issues with pluralism. I don't think that it's a coincidence that Turkey, run by an aggressively secular regime for the past three-quarters of a centruy, that has the best human-rights record--on homosexuality, on human rights in general--of any large Middle Eastern state.

It all comes down to the question of whether I have as much of a right to exist as anyone else, even if in moral error. I wanted to believe that I did; I didn't think that I was naïve at the time. Forgive me for believing in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

What about people who don't believe I've such a right? Imagine that I said that I had no problem with Muslims living in Canada, even--like Choudhary with New Zealand's non-heterosexuals--happily cooperating with them when needed, but continued by saying that if Canada became my ideal polity we should send a research team over to investigate Oswiecim so as to apply that camp's principles domestically. It would be very hard indeed to pretend that I wasn't a vile bigot. Would my abhorrent views would suddenly become legitimate if I announced that they stemmed from religion? I doubt it. The "God says so" excuse is terribly weak. ("The Führer says that we should deport the Jews of Strasbourg to the camps" is wrong, but "God says we should burn all the Jews in Strasbourg" is strong?) By this standard, Choudhary and the Muslim women interviewed by Janet Rankin are terrible bigots. It would be unreasonable for me to ask for their approval, but it isn't at all too much to demand that they recognize that I have just as much a right to life as they. Bad things happen when people decide that others are useless eaters, or evil abominations. People who proudly proclaim themselves bigots and then say people shouldn't be allowed to criticize them confuse me: Why aren't they willing to take responsibility for their proudly-confessed beliefs? Surely they don't want people to pass over them in silence and pretend they're like everyone else.

There is a personal threat to me in this bigotry, though fortunately it's a distant one. By far the biggest problem with bigots in the Muslim community is that these are the very same people who want to be given power over Muslims, and in so doing, try to forge a community in their own image. Last October, I referred to Andrew Duffy's Toronto Star article, written before the Fortuyn imbroglio, about the ongoing collapse of interethnic relations in the Netherlands. Dutch hostility to the immigrants was certainly a factor. An equally important factor was bigotry in the Dutch Muslim community, for instance, pervasive homophobia, nested in a set of repellent bigotries--on gender roles, on religion, on public culture--deeply rooted in a particular interpretation of Islam. The homophobia is only one face of this. If we--and by "we," I mean anyone interested in avoiding a clash of civilizations--agree to let Islam be represented by power-hungry idiots making repellent threats, then the 21st century will be bloody indeed. Passing over a history of Islamic tolerance at least comparable to that found in the lands of Christendom and often superior does no one good.

What can we do to stop this? Over at A Fistful of Euros, Edward Hugh explores Amin Maalouf's In The Name of Identity, quoting the conclusion at length.

Within a given society, the moral contract would take the form of an agreement between members of the majority culture and those of minority cultures to treat each other as equals, and to take seriously the constitutive nature of the other’s culture. To this end, each must be prepared to give up his claim to cultural purity. Majority members must not predicate full-fledged membership on a complete abandonment by minority members of their cultural heritage; rather, they must be prepared to accept them as full members in light of--indeed, in celebration of--their cultural (or ethnic or religious) difference. For their part, members of minority cultures must be prepared to adapt, at least minimally, to the basic rules and values of the majority culture, even if this means abandoning some of their cultural practices.


The purs et durs won't like this. They never do like this sort of thing. But, the last time that the purs et durs were left to run unchecked in Europe, they reduced the population of Germany by a third. They shouldn't have the entire world as a playing field.

What should we do first? Getting everyone to agree on such basic precepts of human rights as the sancity of human life is a good place to start. It's telling that anti-Muslim bigots and Muslim fundamentalists both define Islam and Muslims as inherently bigoted and violent. Setting forth to disprove the bigots, whether in the blogosphere or in the real world, is an excellent first project.


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[info]pauldrye
2005-07-23 02:02 pm UTC (link)
For the love of Cthulhu, Randy, start sending these in to places that pay for words!

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-24 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Love? Surely, his vile tentacled hate.

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[info]danthered
2005-07-23 02:58 pm UTC (link)
Ikram Saeed commented that criticizing Muslims who believe their religion requires torture-killings is racism.

This kind of kneejerk accusation of "racism" is hugely counterproductive and damaging. Not only is it a facile, cheap way for the likes of Saeed to avoid considering a problem much more severe, systematic and urgent than who says what about whom, but it also blunts the impact of legitimate accusations when the racism is real.

That, of course, assumes the best of intentions on Saeed's part. It is also possible that Saeed and his ilk are being deliberately manipulative, deflecting the outrage away from Iran's behaviour by dint of Western guilt over racism in general.

One problem is the lack of a clear line of demarcation between what constitutes a mere cultural difference and what constitutes behaviour unacceptable in the 21st century. Ironically enough, given the source of the following quote, this is one of those "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it" matters.

Uncomfortable though it be for many Westerners to ponder, there is a great deal of plain evidence that Muslim theocracies like Iran fervently wish to carry on living in the 12th century. This gives rise to several even less comfortable questions:

1) To what extent does such societies' right of self-determination preëmpt increasingly globalised standards of basic human rights?

2) What should be the international community's response to societies who do not afford their citizens basic modern human rights?

3) To what extent should such societies be permitted to export their inferior human-rights standards? This touches upon the Dutch issue, and the similar Swedish one, as well. Those two countries have long had very permissive and inclusive immigration policy, based upon the assumption that immigrants would assimilate and become Dutch or Swedish. This assumption held largely true until the massive wave of Muslim immigrants who had no intention of doing so, and it is my understanding that the "Dutch hostility to the immigrants" you mention is a reactive factor, not an incitant one.

This also touches upon the continuing problem of Muslim terrorism specifically: To what extent should societies who wish a 12th-century existence be tolerated in their attempts at what might accurately be described as 12th-century diplomacy using 21st-century bombs?

It's telling that anti-Muslim bigots and Muslim fundamentalists both define Islam and Muslims as inherently bigoted and violent. Setting forth to disprove the bigots, whether in the blogosphere or in the real world, is an excellent first project.

I don't think I agree. Bigotry disproves itself, as it is predicated on absolutes to which fatal counterexamples can easily be found. I think the problem (qua "project") is much larger in scope. Islam as written may well be "a religion of peace" (if that hackneyed phrase can be said to mean anything), but far too many of its practitioners make it into a religion of torture, of domestic and international terrorism and of ritual killing. Islam certainly has no exclusive on this sad and destructive dichotomy; virtually all religions have their harmful extremist and fundamentalist sects, and the differences among their behaviours tend to be matters of degree rather than nature. I'm inclined to believe the problem is organised religion per se.

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[info]creases
2005-07-23 04:30 pm UTC (link)
"Getting everyone to agree on such basic precepts of human rights as the sancity of human life is a good place to start."

I don't think that's a good place to start. Your insistence that you "have" "rights" it is their duty to respect is as empty to them as their insistence that you have God-ordained punishments it is your duty to submit to.

You take for granted that you just "have" rights because they somehow inhere in your human nature. Where are they supposed to look to discover these rights?

Rights aren't facts. They're how we've resolved to treat one another. They're customs or habits, skills or techniques. We have adopted these customs because it is in our interests to do so. They make our societies more stable, more materially productive, more humane, and more pregnant with opportunities for happiness as we come to learn more about ourselves and what makes us happy as individuals. (I'm not talking about the specific rights enumerated in the UDHR, which as I've told you before I think to be incoherent, ambiguous and sometimes perhaps incompatible. I'm talking about the general principle of rights and freedoms to choose our own lifestyles.)

The people you're talking about don't give a shit about "more stable, more materially productive, more humane, with greater opportunities for happiness". They want a society that is more obedient, more indulgent of their bigotry, less demanding of them spiritually, a greater reflection of their Scripture-inspired utopian fantasies.

Some think that stability, prosperity, humanity, and happiness will just follow. If you are going to persuade anyone, it's them, and it'll be by showing in particular detail, using history and economics and political science as well as by showing as a living example, that this is impossible and that a secular lifestyle can be fulfilling. Then they'll have a choice: Either they make a commitment to the values we're upholding and that they intended, or else they'll sacrifice them for their totalitarian puritanical values.

Those who commit to those values are unpersuadable. They'll have to be fought.

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[info]queerbychoice
2005-07-23 08:45 pm UTC (link)
"All of the seven countries that treat homosexuality as a crime punishable by death are Muslim. Of the 82 countries where being gay is a crime, 36 are predominantly Muslim."

The oddest part of it is that homosexuality is overwhelmingly more common in most Muslim countries than in the U.S. or Canada, not (most definitely not) in the sense of people identifying as gay people, with lifelong preferences for the same sex, but yes (most definitely yes) in the sense that the majority of people, especially males, do have sex with members of the same sex at some point in their lives, especially when young and not yet married. As noted here:
In the case of the two teens hanged in Mashhad, "They admitted having gay sex (probably under torture) but claimed in their defense that most young boys had sex with each other and that they were not aware that homosexuality was punishable by death," according to the ISNA report as translated by OutRage.
The areas that Islam has taken root in are areas where many of the pre-Muslim cultures, and in some cases the contemporary non-Muslim cultures still living alongside the Muslim ones, have been extraordinarily devoid of heterosexism. For example, in the contemporary Pathan (non-Muslim) culture of Pakistan and Afghanistan, it's taken for granted that everyone is attracted to members of both sexes, and from childhood all boys are taught to expect that the normal thing to do when they grow up is to have both a wife and a male lover or two, simultaneously, for their whole lives long. I don't know of a contemporary, still-surviving non-Muslim culture so devoid of heterosexism in Iran, but the old, pre-Muslim cultures were fairly similar (good sources of information on this are the books Islamic Homosexualities: Culture, History, and Literature by Stephen O. Murray and Will Roscoe and Sexuality and Eroticism Among Males in Moslem Societies by Arno Schmitt) and although Islam has successfully instituted severe homophobia throughout Iran, the viciousness with which it persecutes queers is influenced by a persistent, barely-acknowledged awareness that Iran's history is actually extraordinarily full of queerness, and that same-gender sex remains, to this day, an awfully common experience, even though it's been successfully relegated to the kind of thing that people are now expected to "outgrow" when they're old enough to get married, and even though the Iranian government is obviously working hard to relegate is still further to the type of thing most people never dare do at all, just like most people here never dare do it at all.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 12:30 am UTC (link)
in the contemporary Pathan (non-Muslim) culture of Pakistan and Afghanistan

Could I trouble you to clarify this? As far as I know, the entirety of the Pathan population converted to Islam long ago. Are you aware of a remnant that did not?

The areas that Islam has taken root in are areas where many of the pre-Muslim cultures, and in some cases the contemporary non-Muslim cultures still living alongside the Muslim ones, have been extraordinarily devoid of heterosexism.

A better example would be this (http://www.time.com/time/asia/features/ontheroad/indonesia.gangsters_sb1.html).

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[info]queerbychoice
2005-07-25 02:52 am UTC (link)
Sorry, you're right, most if not all Pathans are Sunni Muslims now. It's interesting that that doesn't seem to have put an end to their non-heterosexual family structures though.

Some websites like this one claim that all Pathans are Muslims now, but others like this one say only the majority are. I think it may depend on how the term "Pathan" is defined (by religion or by language and culture). Since the Pathan culture existed long before they were Muslim, it seems odd to me to make Islam a defining characteristic of who's considered Pathan now.

Thank you for the link.

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Anti-Muslim Bigots?
(Anonymous)
2005-07-24 10:40 am UTC (link)
It's telling that anti-Muslim bigots and Muslim fundamentalists both define Islam and Muslims as inherently bigoted and violent.

If the Muslims themselves promote their faith as a violent and bigoted one, how is it bigotry for others to say so? It seems to me like you're trying to say that Islam is a thing which can be separated from the beliefs of those who adhere to it, a peaceful thing susceptible to being "hijacked", which strikes me as an untenable position, for all its attraction to the generous-minded.

I look around the world, and I just don't see this religion of peace and tolerance that politicians and opinionators assure us exists: looking at Nigeria, which I'm very concerned about for obvious reasons, I see a triumphalist faith seeking to impose its medieval strictures on Muslims and non-Muslims alike, with stonings not just for homosexuals but also for women who are raped, religious vigilantes roaming the streets whipping people for drinking alcohol, thieves having their hands amputated, riots and mass lynchings (yes, lynchings) being instigated at the mere whiff of a rumor of abuse of the Koran, Christian preachers' houses being routinely burned down, etc, etc. I'm not about to go down the "Nuke 'em all" route of a certain online contingent, but I have to say that when I hear people insist on making a distinction between mainstream Islam and some hypothetical "fringe" of fanatics "distorting" the faith, everything I know from past experience and see going on around me impels me to pull a Dale Peck and scream "Lies! Lies! All lies!"

Abiola Lapite.

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Re: Anti-Muslim Bigots?
(Anonymous)
2005-07-24 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Islam, like any other religion, has all sorts of levels and types of adherence. Some adherents believe that the only way you can be a true Muslim is by following sharia to the letter, except for the "respecting other people of the book" bit. But you and I and anyone interested in the topic KNOWS peaceful, kind, and generous Muslims who do not think that being Jewish or gay should be punishable by death. The problem is that both the Muslim bigots and the anti-Muslim bigots ignore the non-violent Muslims entirely. They do exist, they are just not funded through the wazoo by the Saudis or obsessive enough to organize or, in fact, unemployed enough to travel to Pakistan for months at a time.

Of course, it's stupid to be repeating that "Islam is a religion of peace", (Norwegian-Blue-)parrot-like. It's just equally stupid to suggest there is something intrinsic to Islam that make Muslims more violent than anyone else. Every religion can be a religion of peace or a religion of stoning and decapitation, depending on who's doing the preaching.

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Re: Anti-Muslim Bigots?
(Anonymous)
2005-07-24 09:25 pm UTC (link)
But you and I and anyone interested in the topic KNOWS peaceful, kind, and generous Muslims who do not think that being Jewish or gay should be punishable by death.
Sure they exist, but then again, so did peace-loving fascists, Jew-loving Nazis and kulak-loving Communists, The question isn't whether these tolerant Muslims exist, but to what extent they're typical of their fellow religionists, and on that score there's plenty of disturbing evidence.
It's just equally stupid to suggest there is something intrinsic to Islam that make Muslims more violent than anyone else.
Why? Are you trying to argue that ideas don't matter, and all religions are equivalent? Let me translate your sentences for you into a slightly different scenario so its falsehood can be seen more clearly:
"It's just equally stupid to suggest there is something intrinsic to Nazism that make Nazis more violent than anyone else. Every political philosophy can be a political philosophy of peace or a political philosophy of lebensraum and gas chambers, depending on who's doing the advocating."
It ought to be obvious to you that this structurally similar claim is a load of b.s. The fact is that there's no a priori reason to assume that any belief system is as peaceful or violent as any other, and wherever we look around the world today, it's Islam that's the main religion pushing violence, terrorism and murderous intolerance in general.

Abiola.

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Re: Anti-Muslim Bigots?
(Anonymous)
2005-07-24 09:56 pm UTC (link)
I would argue that a political philosophy is different from a religion, Abiola. You choose your philosophy. At least 9 times out of 10, your religion is what you were born into/grew up with. (And when you CHOOSE the religion the way the rest of us choose our political philosophies, you are likely to be nuttier than the average person who was born into that faith. John Walker Lindh, call your office.)

Looking back at the Inquisition, for example, we know that the issue was not Catholicism per se. It was the political and financial ambitions of Spanish Catholics. Neither Catholicism nor Spanish-ness (Spaniosity?) is intrinsically about sticking-hot-pokers-up-yer-bum.

The problem is not the religion of Islam. The problem is the political philosophy of Islamism.

Angua

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Re: Anti-Muslim Bigots?
(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 12:00 am UTC (link)
"I would argue that a political philosophy is different from a religion, Abiola. You choose your philosophy."
And you're equally free to choose your religion, whichever one you happen to be born into. I was born into Anglicanism and early on chose of my own free will to cease believing in it or anything else, so I don't buy the notion that one has no choice in such matters. In any case, this is irrelevant: political philosophies and religions are both belief systems, and there's absolutely no justification for assuming that differences in either kind of belief system don't translate into differences in the propensity of their adherents to engage in violence. Lots of people were born into Nazism too, and the Hitler Youth were hardly less fanatical for it, were they?
And when you CHOOSE the religion the way the rest of us choose our political philosophies, you are likely to be nuttier than the average person who was born into that faith.
Evidence, please? Millions of people change their religions all the time, not just in America but in Africa, East Asia and Latin America, and they don't become homicidal lunatics upon doing so: Mormonism and Pentecostalism are growing rapidly, but they aren't sending wave after wave of terrorists into the world.
Looking back at the Inquisition, for example, we know that the issue was not Catholicism per se. It was the political and financial ambitions of Spanish Catholics. Neither Catholicism nor Spanish-ness (Spaniosity?) is intrinsically about sticking-hot-pokers-up-yer-bum.
You're wrong: the Catholicism of the era of the Inquisition was about torture, holy wars and expelling Jews and Muslims from "Christian" soil; the big difference is that today's Catholicism has been so neutered by the Enlightenment and the accompanying general decline in religiosity. If Catholics today still believed as fervently as they did in those days, it's a sure thing that you, I and Randy would soon be twitching from the flames lapping at our feet. The definition of "Spanishness" at the time was also about intolerance and violence, which is why Spain exported all those conquistadors to wreak havoc in Native America.

To say that some ideological notion is part and parcel of a belief system is not to say that said belief system can't change. For example, there once was a time when the concept of the "American voter" didn't extend to blacks or women, but obviously that's no longer true.
The problem is not the religion of Islam. The problem is the political philosophy of Islamism.
This is a meaningless evasion of the facts: "Islam" is whatever Muslims believe, and we have many international polls which clearly tell us that very large percentages of Muslims across the globe believe in what you'd like to call "Islamism", i.e. stoning women and rape victims, amputating the limbs of petty thieves, killing apostates and "blasphemers", carrying out suicide attacks on the "sons of pigs and dogs" and their infidel supporters, etc, etc. These are part and parcel of the belief systems of very substantial percentages of Muslims everywhere in the world today, and you have as much basis for passing the buck to "Islamism" as a non-believer like I would for saying, for instance, that observance of the commendment against working on Shabbat isn't part of "real" Judaism but rather some separate entity called "Orthodoxism."

You can keep trying to avoid facing the facts, but I refuse to go along with meaningless pieties about "real" Islam being all about peace, love and happiness when more than a full third of British Muslims can openly admit in polling that they'd love to tear down the "weak, corrupt" society around them, other of their brethren in Iran choose a hardline hater as President, and yet other of their co-religionists in Nigeria freely elect fanatics who promise to impose Sharia in its full rigor. Judging by the policies and rhetoric they choose to back, if the majority of the Muslims of this world had their way, nearly all of us commenting on this board would not be long for this world, while every last Jewish Israeli would be frogmarched to the nearest open pit to have his or her throat slit.

Abiola.

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Re: Anti-Muslim Bigots?
(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 01:08 am UTC (link)
I guess I see it kind of like Judaism vs. Zionism. There is nothing intrinsically Zionist about Judaism -- in fact, traditional Judaism is all about NOT gathering together in Jeruslaem until the messiah comes. Just because, these days, most Jews are Zionist, does not mean that Zionism is necessarily a Jewish thing.

I guess I am trying to be fair, because of the ignorant bigots *I* have to put up with. Israeli != Jew != Zionist != Christ-killer != "some guy with a hooked nose controlling Bush through evil mind-waves while shooting Palestinian infants for target practice". If you want to hate me, then hate me for *my* sins, not the perceived sins of "my kind".

So, similarly, Muslim != "a guy who wants to create a 12th century califate via a program of suicide bombing, homosexual-beheading, and FGM".

Or, at least, I sure hope not, otherwise we are all in serious trouble.

Angua

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Re: Anti-Muslim Bigots?
(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 01:40 am UTC (link)
guess I am trying to be fair, because of the ignorant bigots *I* have to put up with. Israeli != Jew != Zionist != Christ-killer != "some guy with a hooked nose controlling Bush through evil mind-waves while shooting Palestinian infants for target practice". If you want to hate me, then hate me for *my* sins, not the perceived sins of "my kind".
But "Israeli" is a nationality, not a religion or a belief system (though a shared cultural conception of "genuine Israeliness" would certainly be the latter). Besides, I'm not advocating that we judge all Muslims as mere representatives of a group rather than individuals, merely that we be honest with ourselves about where these violent and intolerant tendencies spring from; as long as the pretence goes on that support for terrorism and the killing of homosexuals, apostates and rape victims is some sort of marginal thing to be attributed to a few extremists, the majority of Muslims who *do* support at least some of these things (especially when directed towards a certain tiny part of the Middle East) will have little incentive to re-examine their views - after all, aren't all these Westerners always reassuring them that this "Islamism" stuff has nothing to do with them?
Or, at least, I sure hope not, otherwise we are all in serious trouble.
It's a bit late in the day to be hoping, because we already are: in just the last week alone we've witnessed terror in Britain, Israel, Egypt and Iraq, and angry Muslims attacking the Ayah Pin movement in Malaysia, not to speak of the never ending bloodletting in places like Sudan, Kashmir and Chechnya - we're talking about all three continents on which Muslims are to be found in large numbers here, and a single week.

Abiola.

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Re: Anti-Muslim Bigots?
(Anonymous)
2005-07-26 12:43 am UTC (link)
Abiola,

You should correct your facts before preaching your feelings on a matter. Islam is in practice, while afforded the bastard stepchild of Abrahamic society, a fundamentally insular religion. Unlike Judaism or Christianity, the "mysteries" are open and exposed, and thus, while Islam keeps itself to itself, it is exposed to one's neighbors. Modern Islam follows the teaching of Mohammad who, among other things, advocated slaughter in the name if jihad, and within periods, murder of idolators; for those who simply do not believe, they are given to Allah. Judaism, on the other hand, offers very similar, called "Wrath of God" horrors on those who are not followers. There's about as much blood and guts in the first five books of the Bible as there are advocated in the Qu'ran.

As for Israel being a nation, it is a nation in as much as the people of Israel (those descended from Jacob, who was renamed Yisrael) exist as a collective, no matter if they have territory. I will be American by my nationality whether or not there is an America. I cannot be a Canadian even if I were to claim citizenship, and while I am Danish, I am not a Dane; or Irish as in my blood, though my family comes from immigrants to England.

Incidentally, though Muslim men are given praise in reward for destroyer their enemies, jews are hardly blameless for both sustaining, and antagonizing, the conflict that the two seem embittered in. If they didn't there would not have been expansion of territory at any point (Israeli settlers moving into Sinai, for example, or claiming Muslim-held territory by establishing settlements in the Gaza, then to claim they could not be removed, and writing graffiti to antagonize Muslims).

Equivalence of blame? Yes. No one side in a fight is free of the responsibility of fighting, and cause is made on both sides to start a fight, else one side would have just rolled over and died. Should I smack you in the face and you walk away, are you fighting? Only if you turn and hit back.

Headden

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Re: Anti-Muslim Bigots?
[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-25 04:29 am UTC (link)
If you want to hate me, then hate me for *my* sins, not the perceived sins of "my kind".

I hope that I made this clear in my post.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 01:55 pm UTC (link)
From Ikram

Oh geez. This is a dogs breakfast. Suffice it to say, Randy, that I never said that critizing homophobia amogn Muslims was racism. And I certainly never used the word 'racism'. I said that Chaudhry was unequipped with the sophistry necessary to rationalize his beleuf that the Koran was inerrant (the necessary beleif to be a muslim) with liberal norms.

Actually Randy, this post is pretty offensive mischaracterization of my views. I would ask that you correct it.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-25 02:24 pm UTC (link)
Suffice it to say, Randy, that I never said that critizing homophobia amogn Muslims was racism. And I certainly never used the word 'racism'.

It's true you didn't use the word "racism." You actually said the below:

If the test of a good Muslim is one who agree the Koran is wrong, there are no good Muslims in the world. There's your LGF conclusion.

Unless your opinion of Little Green Footballs has improved remarkably, I feel justified in treating your reference as a synonym for racism. More's the pity.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 04:27 pm UTC (link)
From Ikram

No I'll hold to my comment, but I think you aren't getting my point. Let me try again:

If you, Randy, think that a good Muslim is one who thinks the Koran has mistakes, then you will find no good Muslims in the world. Becuase pretty much the only thing in common to al Muslims, and the one thing that makes a person into a 'Muslim', is the inerrancy of the Koran. (analogy: If you think Jesus neve existed, you can't very well be a Christian.)

What I'm saying, Randy, is that your line of argument very quickly drives you to the conculsion that there are no good Muslims. That's what I call the 'LGF conlusion' -- thugh if the term offends you we can find another one. You ought to agree with Abiola.

I don't, because I don't think a religious person needs to read a 'text' in any particular way. Reglious belief is mutable, and words can pretty much mean anything you want them to mean. The sophistry (and I don't use that term pejoritively) Mollpeartree used is the type always used to make a religion come into line with the preferred mores of a time and place.

I hope you understand my argument better, randy. I'm not saying gay-bashing is acceptable. I'm saying that you can't win over a religious person by asking them to deny the basis of their religion. What you do, instead, is show how their faith is consonant with the views you want them to hold.

(Gorver Norquist has put a lot of time into getting US Muslims to agree that Islam demands low taxes. It's a stupid line of argument -- for a lot of reasons -- but he's been somewhat successful becase he knows how to talk to a religious person, and how to use thier language.)

In any case, I most definitely do not hold the views you attribute to me in the first sentence of this post. I ask again that you correct the post -- you can quote my original comments if you like.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-25 06:37 pm UTC (link)
As I said elsewhere, "God says that the Jews of Strasbourg must be burned" is no better an argument for genocide than "The Führer commands that the Jews of Strasbourg be taken and shot."

If certain Muslims want to cling to an explicitly literal reading of certain contested traditions calling for the mass murder of the class of people in which I find themselves, fine. It's a pity that they don't follow me in recognizing the right of all people to life, but, eh.

They, however, have no grounds to complain--and you have no grounds to complain on their behalf--when people operating on the basis of a belief system based in part on the sanctity of human life call them bigots based on their explicit disrespect for that principle. Why should they care? I'm operating from a belief system that they don't recognize as legitimate, as a person who they don't believe has an inherent right to life. Why do you object to this label? There's questions of outreach, yes, but I'm not sure if I could ever engage in outreach with people who believe what they believe.

Alas, you did call people trapped under ideologies that they couldn't escape from "wimpy," sad to say. I've the links and everything. I will say one more thing: You do Islam a great, great disservice by arguing that the only way to be Muslim is to be violently bigoted. I'm not the one who's sitting down and agreeing with anti-Muslim bigots on this.

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[info]creases
2005-07-25 07:21 pm UTC (link)
How is what Ikram has said different from what I've said, here and in the past?

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[info]creases
2005-07-25 07:23 pm UTC (link)
Never mind. "Last words", of course. Sorry.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-25 09:50 pm UTC (link)
You've said that a universal basis is lacking. You didn't say that criticism should be impossible, or illegitimate.

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[info]creases
2005-07-25 11:11 pm UTC (link)
From what I read, neither did he.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-25 11:29 pm UTC (link)
I disagree.

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[info]creases
2005-07-25 11:38 pm UTC (link)
I'm not in the habit of giving my opinion unless I think I'm (at least implicitly) asked, and I can't tell if this is a brush-off or an invitation/challenge to comment. If you're sick of the subject, we can let it drop.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-26 12:15 am UTC (link)
Sorry. The latter, I guess.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 08:00 pm UTC (link)
From Ikram

Randy -- As should be obvious over the years we've known each other, I'm as much of a Muslim as Razib.

And that's why I still hold that Canadian adults who refuse to confront social pressure are wimps. What do you call a 20 year old Canadian gay man that continues to live in the closet because he's scared his parents will disown him? A wimp. Same goes for Muslims unwilling to defy community convention. Canada is very supportive of nonconformists. If you still are scared to be yourself, you have no-one to blame but yourself.

(I've also argued for increased government support for nonconformists. The state can often step in where family fails.)

If certain Muslims want to cling to an explicitly literal reading of certain contested traditions calling for the mass murder of the class of people in which I find themselves, fine... There's questions of outreach, yes, but I'm not sure if I could ever engage in outreach with people who believe what they believe

You've shifted a bit -- thinking the Koran is absolutely true, an essential Muslim belief, is not the same as a 'literal reading', a non-essential viewpoint.

But generally, what you say above is exactly the point I was making in my first comment -- and that is what I called the LGF position (obviously the wrong term). There's no point in talking to someone who beleives what I think they believe.. It's a tough call, as I noted in a very old Abu Aardvark thread

http://abuaardvark.typepad.com/abuaardvark/2004/07/qardawi_in_lond.html#comments

[Martin] Kramer is right in the narrow sense -- Qaradawi is no liberal. I wouldn't want him running my country. But I would still go with the Aardvark -- engaging those willing to talk, despite their illiberality, is the way to go. Of course, this ought not to be at the expense of real liberals in Egypt, Pakistan, whatever.

The Aardvark-Kramer discussion is one that can be found in any context. Should anti-Isreali militants refuse to engage any Israeli or should they reach out to the folks at PeaceNow? Should Canada reach out to 'soft' Quebec nationalists or take a hard federalist line? You pick'em.

(It's worth reading what AA says about Moderate Islamists, as well as Martin Kramer's rejoinders)

The "Kramer position" -- if you prefer to call it that -- is valid. What is to be gained by talking?. I'm somewhat sympathetic -- I don't like talking to separatists. That doesn't make me a racist, but it does make me ineffective in combatting seperatism.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 08:39 pm UTC (link)
What is to be gained by talking?. I'm somewhat sympathetic -- I don't like talking to separatists. That doesn't make me a racist, but it does make me ineffective in combatting seperatism.

Equating Quebecois Separatism, a democratic movement, acting constitutionally, that has never used or threatened violence, to someone like Qaradawi or Radical Islam in general, who advocate killing gays and Israeli civilians, is extremely disturbing. Sometimes enemies are for fighting against, not talking to.

[Christians and Jews] wiggle around the edges and explain why the words on the page don't mean what you think they mean. [...] Choudhry's crime is that he is unskilled in religious sophistry

I'm sorry, Islamic jurispudence, or Islamic Rationalization, or Islamic Sophistry, is as old as Islam itself. No religion can function without an arbiter class that rationalizes religion, and Islam certainly hasn't. Muslims simply haven't chosen as of yet, at least not in comparison to other abrahamic religions, to rationalize their religion in a way that reconciles the values of the modern world. I don't know that Islam is inherently more fundamentalist.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 08:53 pm UTC (link)
Equating Quebecois Separatism, a democratic movement, acting constitutionally, that has never used or threatened violence, to someone like Qaradawi or Radical Islam in general, who advocate killing gays and Israeli civilians, is extremely disturbing. Sometimes enemies are for fighting against, not talking to.

Comparison is not equating, Danny, and you know it.

Muslims simply haven't chosen as of yet, at least not in comparison to other abrahamic religions, to rationalize their religion in a way that reconciles the values of the modern world. I don't know that Islam is inherently more fundamentalist.

I would say that it is more fundamentalist. You can't get away from the text in islam. But I agree that the jurisprudence / rationalization / sophistry has not yet been sufficiently undertaken. But even where it has, guys like Choudhry would be utterly unaware of it.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 09:19 pm UTC (link)
But even where it has, guys like Choudhry would be utterly unaware of it.

Guys like Choudhary would be unaware that recommending death by stoning for a minority is monstrous?

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 11:09 pm UTC (link)
Comparison is not equating

OK, wrong word. What I dislike about your line of argument is the implicit good cop / bad cop image in it, that since OBL is the bad cop, then Qaradawi, who by any objective standard is a homophobic antisemitic medieval nutjob, is the good cop. They're both bad cops, and to hell with both of them.

-Danny

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 08:40 pm UTC (link)
That was from me.

-Danny (danpinkus@hotmail.com)

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-25 09:49 pm UTC (link)
And that's why I still hold that Canadian adults who refuse to confront social pressure are wimps. What do you call a 20 year old Canadian gay man that continues to live in the closet because he's scared his parents will disown him?

I was thinking, a victim. Details, please? As it happens, we weren't talking about young adults in the closet back then, but rather about people forced to live in conservative subcommunities within Canada governed by shari'a law for want of an ability to leave. Shirin Ebadi opposed the law for partially this reason; you, it seems, favour it despite.

You've shifted a bit -- thinking the Koran is absolutely true, an essential Muslim belief, is not the same as a 'literal reading', a non-essential viewpoint.

No, I've not. All texts are interpreted and interpretable, yes, even the Koran.

There's no point in talking to someone who beleives what I think they believe.

1. They're quite clear about what they believe.

2. Who said anything about not talking to them? I don't recall saying nothing about that.

What I am saying is that in talking to them, we should make it clear that they're bigots. Since when is telling the truth incompatible with conversation? If anything, the two work together.
I'm somewhat sympathetic -- I don't like talking to separatists. That doesn't make me a racist, but it does make me ineffective in combatting seperatism.

If, as Danny said, Québec separatism was in fact a violent movement whose members believed that they had the right to massacre all Anglos and ethnics within their country's frontiers, you might have a point. As things stand, you reflect either your ignorance or your prejudices, and quite probably both.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-25 09:53 pm UTC (link)
In summary, your special pleading on behalf of homophobic Muslims who cling to an interpretation of Islam justifying the mass murder of homosexuals is ineffective, possibly immoral, and certainly embarrassing. Argue for this elsewhere, if you want. Don't do it here.

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[info]schizmatic
2005-07-26 10:45 pm UTC (link)
I'm only going to jump into this thing very, very briefly. To some extent, I tend to be of the opinion that the problem with getting the government to help out people living in a manipulative family results in a cure that is worse than the disease.

OTOH, I think that you are being intemperate in your description of people subject to family pressures. It's one thing for a 19 year old Anglophone whose father disowns her as a vile fornicatrix to simply tell the father to get bent and head for greener pastures. A woman who speaks little or no English and cannot read, though, who is also subject to religious prohibitions on interacting with men who aren't her relatives and really with anyone not of her faith doesn't know what her rights are.

It is one thing to be brow-beaten by family and perhaps threatened with physical violence (though usually there's no need to go that far) when you know your rights. It is an entirely different thing when you don't know your rights. How is someone who has no clue that there even *is* a charter of rights and freedoms, to say nothing of being able to read said documents going to be aware of her right to tell the male members of her family to shove it (if she wants)?

I actually don't have an answer, since like I mentioned earlier, the cure to such things tends to be worse than the disease. You should at least acknowledge the category of people for whom Randy is showing concern.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Found your blog via GNXP.

The more interesting question to me is whether there's a disproportionate amount of homophobia (begging the question of definition of homophibia) in Muslim societies and communities vs. non Muslim societies and communities that are of similar statuses. It's hard to assess that fairly without considering the effect that the wealth, history, institutional structure, political traditions, etc. of a country has on the way homophobia plays out--e.g. the impact of authoritarianism in stemming the kinds of civil society measures that would allow queer rights to progress. Without that kind of broader analysis, it's difficult to tell whether your post should, as it is, be placed in a religious framing, or if it should be placed in some other frame (e.g. wealthy Euro- and Euro-descended cultures vs. the rest of the world--India and Singapore also have a British-derived law on the books banning homosexuality). Also, relying on laws is somewhat suspect--the U.S. Supreme Court only struck down Texas's anti-sodomy law (for straights and queers alike :) in the last few years. But, again, it's fair game to criticize anyone calling for the death of a queer or the rape of a woman or the deportations of people on largely religious grounds, taking into account the broader political climate--particularly if you feel personally affected by it. There really shouldn't be any oppositionality between critiquing homophobia or racism or eurocentrism or other such things.

-saurav

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-25 09:13 pm UTC (link)
It's hard to assess that fairly without considering the effect that the wealth, history, institutional structure, political traditions, etc. of a country has on the way homophobia plays out--e.g. the impact of authoritarianism in stemming the kinds of civil society measures that would allow queer rights to progress. Without that kind of broader analysis, it's difficult to tell whether your post should, as it is, be placed in a religious framing, or if it should be placed in some other frame (e.g. wealthy Euro- and Euro-descended cultures vs. the rest of the world--India and Singapore also have a British-derived law on the books banning homosexuality). Also, relying on laws is somewhat suspect--the U.S. Supreme Court only struck down Texas's anti-sodomy law (for straights and queers alike :) in the last few years.

Hi, saurav!

I agree entirely. I do think, however, that the current interpretations of Islam do readily lend themselves to a particularly severe homophobia. India and Singapore outlaw gay sex, yes, but they do so using the sort of constitutional language once current in the West, and using the same sort of penalties. Not so in Iran.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 11:44 pm UTC (link)
Well, the reality is that different societies are going to define their norms differently--I'm not saying that's good or that we can't criticize them for different things, but that's the way it is. There are many different issues intersecting here, from colonialism, U.S. and Soviet meddling, authoritarianism, how democracy and civil rights are built, etc. If you're going to critique a society like Iran's or Pakistan's (as opposed to just particular acts that their governments commit that are clearly abhorrent) for systemic homophobia or gender bias, it would make sense to actually approach people who are from there and have direct experience with it to find out more (perhaps you've done this already) rather than relying on secondary sources. For example, here's a blog that presents a Pakistani queer perspective: Venial Sin (http://www.venialsin.com/). I had a very different understanding of what queerness (and other political issues) in India was like until I met a lot of queer folks from there and I actually went there and met people still there and talked to them--and I still don't know $hit. Political cultures in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Iraq, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Malaysia, Qatar, and other places are not the same. At a time when lumping "Muslims" together is a popular thing to be peddling, it's important to be careful about your analyses--especially if you're a member of a disempowered group and critiquing.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2005-07-26 12:16 am UTC (link)
Actually, I did. She was happy she was in Canada, a "country where there are laws," where she didn't have to worry about getting drugged by her parents or gang-raped by the neighbourhood boys.

Agreed about the need for greater precision. As I said, I do think that there are some compelling commonalities uniting homophobias in different Muslim societies, particularly as the Islamic world--like the rest of the world--becomes globalized.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-25 04:40 pm UTC (link)
Randy, please, keep this all in perspective. The Iranian mullahs are ANTI-BUSH. That's the important thing. If someone stands with the Reality-Based Community against Chimpy McBushitler*, I'm prepared to give them a free hand with respect to criminalization of homosexuality. Everyone should!

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