Randy McDonald ([info]rfmcdpei) wrote,
@ 2004-03-10 02:22:00
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Current mood:finished
Current music:the sound of silence

[REVIEW] Irshad Manji: "Israel, Islam, and Diversity"


I arrived at 7:50 pm on Sunday night, at Biosciences 1101.

The room is a vast auditorium, seating hundreds of people. I'd gone there Thursday, for Catherine Bell's networking seminar, and it was mostly full. This night, it was completely full--I was lucky to get a seat at the very back.

Two things of note happened before Irshad Manji began to speak.


  • Two of the student constables standing behind me, opposite the doors, began talking about her. One person said that she was a lesbian; that, in her opinion, was all right, but she couldn't understand how someone could be a lesbian and be involved in the Muslim faith.

  • Members of Queen's Palestinian Human Rights Association passed out small orange pamphlets, 6 inches by 4 inches, which detailed various of the rights violations committed in the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories (arbitrary checkpoints, economic privation, monopolization of scarce water supplies).







Ms. Manji was a dynamic presenter, thanks to her experience as a journalist (particularly for the City TV show QueerTelevision). It was a quick presentation of an hour's length, and you'd really have to have read the book to get the full impact of her argument, I believe, but it was quite compact and comprehensible.

She began by recounting the history of her own personal relationship with Islam, beginning at the age of eight when she was confused by her Saturday madrassa teacher's emphasis on the perfidy of the Jews and their conspiracies, given the lack of proof. (Of course, she laughingly told us later, she didn't realize that such world-embracing conspiracies as that of the Jews lack evidence by their very nature. Oh, and as some of her critics have said, she's also a Mossad agent, though she also made it clear that she's on unpaid leave from the Israeli security agency. I'll get to her sense of humour later.) On a more serious note, she did mention receiving multiple death threats for her writing.

Most of her argument about Israel was based on the premise that diversity--cultural, linguistic, religious, sexual--was always a positive good, requiring an active defense wherever it might be found. Travelling to Israel, sponsored financially by a Zionist organization but setting her own itinerary, she came back wuith a very positive evaluation of Israeli diversity, particularly as contrasted to the diversity of many Muslim countries. One thing that particularly stood out in her speech was her statement that Jerusalem, under an Orthodox Jewish mayor, plans on hosting one of the world's largest gay-pride events in 2005; no city in the Muslim world apparently lodged a bid in the international competition. Although she acknowledged that Israel had serious problems, she felt that its commitment to diversity gave it enough credibility to merit existence.

Manji then argued that the challenge for Muslims was not to unite to destroy it, as former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohammad suggested last year, but that they should try to emulate the spirit of free inquiry, of pluralism, and of freedom that Israel has achieved despite its difficult circumstances. She concluded by stating the universality of human rights, and their applicability beyond the West to all people--including, she was sure to mention, all Muslims.

I was pleased that all of the questions posed to her at the end of the session lacked the homophobia that often taints many critiques of her writing. I was impressed, for instance, by the young Iranian-Canadian man, a refugee from the Islamic Republic, who told of being educated to believe that the touch of a Jew was contaminatory, and mentioned how, after mentioning that he supported Israel's right to exist, he and his family received death threats for weeks. A Mi'kMaq woman gave a long and somewhat rambling speech, the gist of which was criticism of Canada's pluralism given continued problems for natives wanting to live traditional lifestyles; Manji responded well by pointing out broader societal differences, and the potential for greater pluralism in Canada's case. A girl of Near Eastern Christian descent asked Manji about Israel's responsibility in diminishing the ancient Christian presence in the Palestinian territories, by making life unbearable for them. And so on. I was quite proud of the Queen's community's maturity.





I do see some weaknesses with her argument, as presented Sunday night. (Keep in mind that I haven't read her entire book, only excerpts and various interviews.)

Firstly, there were two places in her speech were Manji didn't adequately explore Israel's problems with diversity:

  • Israel is a multilingual, multiethnic, multiracial, society almost beyond compare. That said, Israel does have continuing serious problems with its own domestic Arab minority which mar its commitment to diversity. The problems in the Palestinian territories have the serious potential of utterly ruining the whole Israeli project, if Israel continues to exercise a sort of negative sovereignty over the territories and alternative structures to deal with the Palestinian question aren't developed. Neither of these problems weakens her thesis. By mentioning them more emphatically, though, her case would have been stronger.

  • In her reply to the question of Christian emigration from the Palestinian territories, she seems to be false. The US State Department agrees that Christian Palestinian emigration is motivated mainly not by Islamic radicalism, but by deteriorating living conditions mostly directly relatable to the occupation. A case can be made that Israel is responsible for this diminution of diversity. However, Palestinian Christian emigration is only part of a wider trend in the Near East towards emigration, whether in comparatively stable Jordan, or in Lebanon and Syria with their ancient and substantial communities. Things, generally speaking, aren't good for many people in the Near East; Christians, though, are more likely to have relatives in the West than Muslims, and are likely to find assimilation easier than their non-Christian colinguals. Israel may be responsible for accelerating the trend in the case of the Palestinian territories, but it didn't start it.


Secondly, her mentioning of death threats levelled against her--including one particularly graphic example witnessed by a travelling companion at Trudeau Airport in Montréal--might have acted to make me more sympathetic to her arguments than I otherwise would be. I don't believe that it was a major factor, but I mention it out for the sake of completeness.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, in talking about Islam, she didn't make it clear what kind of Islam she was talking about. The reforms she proposed--including, most prominently, a reawakening of a spirit of critical inquiry, free of threats or reprisals by conservatives, the enfranchisement of female autonomy through Gameen Bank-style microloans, literacy, and education in empowering verses of the Qu'ran--can be fitted into an Islamic tradition of critical thinking and female autonomy. If one is motivated to try. If one isn't motivated to try--and particularly if one doesn't think that any sort of Muslim should listen to a lesbian feminist Canadian of Ugandan Asian background--then these traits can readily be disregarded as Western imports if you're a religious conservative. Which, in a way, they are; had Manji's parents fled Idi Amin and went not to Canada, say, but Pakistan, she probably never would have experienced the intellectual and personal developments she did experience.

But then, there's always the things left unconsidered.





If Islam is, as many of its detractors claim, incapable by its very nature of adapting to principles of liberal individualism, then it must be noted that so is Catholicism. Just look at the Catholic Encyclopedia's explanation of the Catholic Church's official dogma on liberalism:

Usually, the principles of 1789, that is of the French Revolution, are considered as the Magna Charta of this new form of Liberalism. The most fundamental principle asserts an absolute and unrestrained freedom of thought, religion, conscience, creed, speech, press, and politics. The necessary consequences of this are, on the one hand, the abolition of the Divine right and of every kind of authority derived from God; the relegation of religion from the public life into the private domain of one's individual conscience; the absolute ignoring of Christianity and the Church as public, legal, and social institutions; on the other hand, the putting into practice of the absolute autonomy of every man and citizen, along all lines of human activity, and the concentration of all public authority in one "sovereignty of the people". This sovereignty of the people in all branches of public life as legislation, administration, and jurisdiction, is to be exercised in the name and by order of all the citizens, in such a way, that all should have share in and a control over it. A fundamental principle of Liberalism is the proposition: "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself". This principle implies the denial of all true authority; for authority necessarily presupposes a power outside and above man to bind him morally.


And yet, no one nowadays talks about how Catholic individuals, Catholic communities, and entire Catholic societies, are innately hostile to liberal democracy, or freedom of conscience, or women's rights, or gay rights. If anything, the reverse is true. This despite such things as the current pope striking alliances with Islamic conservatives against, well, a Western liberalism innately devoid of specifically Catholic moral content.

Why?

Quite simply, it's because Catholicism exists and thrives, as a great supranational culture, beyond whatever the organizational church. It's in the nature of any large-scale ideological system, once it leaves the tightly organized confines which produce it, to mutate. These ideologies come up against local traditions, against individual consciences, against other ideologies; and very rarely do they go unchallenged. Or, that is, very rarely do they go unchallenged in societies and polities where it is possible to challenge them, just a little at first, and not necessarily without significant personal suffering at first. But then, you see change, in one society after another: France, Belgium, central Europe, Québec, Italy, Spain, the Lusophone world, Ireland, one after another. To say nothing of what happened in Catholic minority enclaves. The end result? Andrew Sullivan can call himself Catholic and not be substantially wrong.

I find it very difficult to believe that in the absence of any coherent transnational institutional structure, or that many common dogmas, or much common culture, Islam will prove any more resistant to the pressure of people who want change. Islam is just as much a diverse supranational culture, existing in forms often quite variant from official dogmas, as Catholicism. The people who would misuse Islam to pressure women into wearing the hijab based on the lie that it's the only form of modest dress that Muslim women can wear, or the people who would misuse Islam to threaten people into voting for a particular political party, and misuse that ancient religion to oppose political reforms that a majority of the electorate might want, should be called on their misidentification of their civilization as something unitary and homogeneous. (Of course, this unitary homogeneity matches their vision precisely. Convenient, that.)

Islam isn't a monolith. Islam shouldn't be treated as a monolith, given the widely differing destinies of its diverse components. People from within that community who want to reveal this diversity, and fight against the people who'd like to suppress it all, should be aided. Including, even--or perhaps especially--people like Irshad Manji.

I enjoyed myself quite mightily.



NOTE, 2:22 AM : My client wouldn't allow me to put in links or much formatting, so I stripped all of it. I can provide the links on request; hopefully, I'll be able to fit them in when it actually works.

UPDATE: 2:24 AM : Coverage from another Queen's blogger here.

UPDATE: 5:13 PM : Hyperlinks added again. Go wild.



(Post a new comment)


(Anonymous)
2004-03-10 04:12 pm UTC (link)
From Conrad:

Randy, I looked forward to this review with interest and enjoyed reading it. It certainly provided some more context about where she is coming from. My initial thoughts on what you have summarised are briefly:

1) there seems to be a lot of concentration by her on the obsession with Zionist conspiracy theories etc and the hold they have on the ‘Muslim mind’. This is fair enough and it is a problem but I wonder whether all the problems of many Islamic societies can be traced back to this; I mean Turkey is a good example of a Muslim state that has good relations both at the state and societal level with Israel but still can’t be described as a pluralist or liberal society. I would imagine that it isn’t all that a great place for non-hetereosexuals either. Moreover, while there has always been a strain of classicial anti-Semitism in the Islamic world, the consensus position as I understand it is that Jews enjoyed much more security and protection here than they did in the Christian world. Obviously things have changed and I can’t help wondering whether a lot of this is not due to the incursion of Zionism into the ME – no doubt resorting to fantasies about Zionist global plots is a sure sign of epistemic failure but this hardly is surprising considering the nature and evolution of the conflict.

2) Re: Israel this is all very fine about linguistic and social diversity but then these exist in other societies as well. I mean SE and South Asia along with much of SSA have this kind of kaleidoscope as well and some states such as Brazil and ZA have made big steps towards instituionalising this kind of pluralism in their political and social structures. I find it odd that Israel is taken to be the exemplar here, particularly if one is trying to reach a Muslim audience, it might not necessarily be the best choice to take. Moreover, religious pluralism is quite constrained from what I understand in Israel- I mean there are diverse religions but in a state designed for Jews, there will obviously be constraints on issues like proselytisation, missionary activity etc. it is not a secular state as I understand it. Not that secular states don’t have problems here as well, as the moves to try and ban conversions in India demonstrate – but at least the existence of the problem indicates that some freedoms are allowed. The policy towards say Christian missionary proselytisation by the state can’t differ in Israel from that of many other ME Islamic countries – though of course Christian minorities might be better treated. Also I am unsure about this but my impression also was that the move towards greater tolerance and liberalism towards non-hetereosexual minorities in Israel was a relatively recent one much of which occurred in the late 1980s when full legal and policy protection was extended to them (I could be wrong here, so would appreciate any correction). Again, I am unsure what this is meant to say about anything; after all many conservative Christian churches in SSA have an extremely intolerant approach to the issue and homophobia is hardly uncommon across some ruling African elite – viz. Mugabe and his rantings about gays in the British cabinet.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2004-03-10 08:43 pm UTC (link)
1) there seems to be a lot of concentration by her on the obsession with Zionist conspiracy theories etc and the hold they have on the ‘Muslim mind’. This is fair enough and it is a problem but I wonder whether all the problems of many Islamic societies can be traced back to this; I mean Turkey is a good example of a Muslim state that has good relations both at the state and societal level with Israel but still can’t be described as a pluralist or liberal society. I would imagine that it isn’t all that a great place for non-hetereosexuals either.

You can describe it as more pluralistic and liberal than most of its Middle Eastern neighbours, despite its failings from the European perspective. There's open GLBT networking in Turkey, for instance, and a surprisingly prominent role for transsexuals. Iran, say, has a fairly repressive legal treatment of non-heterosexual behaviour focussing heavily on whipping, and a near-total atomization of individuals.

[T]hings have changed and I can’t help wondering whether a lot of this is not due to the incursion of Zionism into the ME – no doubt resorting to fantasies about Zionist global plots is a sure sign of epistemic failure but this hardly is surprising considering the nature and evolution of the conflict.

Reading Culture Wars, I was surprised to find that one way that the Catholic Church, Catholic groups, and individual Catholics reacted to pressures for social change (democratic republicanism, civil marriage, enfranchisement of religious minorities) was by appealing to the influence of great Satanic conspiracies aimed against the Catholic faith and the preservation of souls from damnation. Jews featured prominently, but all other manner of transnational combinations (from socialists to Protestant imperialists) also featured.

2) Re: Israel this is all very fine about linguistic and social diversity but then these exist in other societies as well. [. . .] I find it odd that Israel is taken to be the exemplar here, particularly if one is trying to reach a Muslim audience, it might not necessarily be the best choice to take.

I think what she's doing is aiming for a frontal assault. If she can demonstrate to other Muslims that, all things considered, the situation of your average Israeli Arab is better than that of your average Syrian, or Iranian, then it could serve as a spur for change. Possibly.

Moreover, religious pluralism is quite constrained from what I understand in Israel [. . .]

True, but for conservative Muslim population, the way things exist in Israel might well be preferable--from the perspectives of religious liberty generally--than the French model of laicity, say.

Also I am unsure about this but my impression also was that the move towards greater tolerance and liberalism towards non-hetereosexual minorities in Israel was a relatively recent one much of which occurred in the late 1980s when full legal and policy protection was extended to them (I could be wrong here, so would appreciate any correction).

I think that's right. Still ahead of what's in most Muslim countries, Turkey aside.

Again, I am unsure what this is meant to say about anything; after all many conservative Christian churches in SSA have an extremely intolerant approach to the issue and homophobia is hardly uncommon across some ruling African elite – viz. Mugabe and his rantings about gays in the British cabinet.

I think her point was that homophobia is present and supported in the core of the Muslim world in a way that it isn't in the core of the (nominally) Christian world, or the Jewish world for that matter.

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-11 09:25 am UTC (link)
I think what she's doing is aiming for a frontal assault. If she can demonstrate to other Muslims that, all things considered, the situation of your average Israeli Arab is better than that of your average Syrian, or Iranian, then it could serve as a spur for change. Possibly.

I'm rather dubious about that as an effective way to get people to open up and look at their own societies. Instead, you're likely to find that they are going to close in and support their own group.

From a different perspective, some people like to make comparisons between specific aspects of Israeli society and Nazi Germany. However, in my experience, that didn't serve to make usually quite moderate Jews open up and admit that there are failings in contemporary Israeli society (even if they usually were willing to do so) but rather to rally around the flag, and defend Israel against comparisons to Nazi Germany.

While I certainly don't want to draw analogies between Israel and the Third Reich, there are analogies between the demonization of the Third Reich within Israel, and of Israel within much of the Arab and Muslim worlds. Using another country to goad change is far more likely to succeed in convincing people in the Middle East.

Alexander

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[info]rfmcdpei
2004-03-11 12:13 pm UTC (link)
[T]here are analogies between the demonization of the Third Reich within Israel, and of Israel within much of the Arab and Muslim worlds. Using another country to goad change is far more likely to succeed in convincing people in the Middle East.

In the Middle East, I'd tend to agree, though Jonathan would tell you (more capably than me) about the ways in which Palestinian expectations for governance have been shaped by (and not only in reaction to) Israeli actions. Outside the Middle East, though, in non-Arab areas and in First World immigrant populations, it might be a different story.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2004-03-11 02:09 pm UTC (link)
Jonathan would tell you (more capably than me) about the ways in which Palestinian expectations for governance have been shaped by (and not only in reaction to) Israeli actions

I agree.

Outside the Middle East, though, in non-Arab areas and in First World immigrant populations, it might be a different story.

I disagree. While anti-Zionist feelings may be weaker in non-Arab parts of the Islamic world, they still exist. Immigrants to the first world may have a more nuanced point of view -- pushing for a two state solution instead of "push the Jews into the Sea", but they are far more aware of Israeli atrocities than the general (American) public, and far more willing to ascribe them to deliberate policies of the Sharon government rather than to dismiss them as bureaucratic ineptitude or a few bad apples.

I haven't spoken in enough detail to non-Americans to feel comfortable comparing their views to those of the rest of the Western world which tends to think that the US has given the Israelis a blank check, but I don't get the same feeling of emotional connection to the issue when Europeans, for example, tell me how awful American foreign policy is. Perhaps, part of the difference is on my part -- I'm more than willing to accept that most American foreign policy is inept (with a few glowing exceptions, like the Marshal Plan, and our handling of 1989) while I'm not willing to accept that Israel is the sole problem in the Middle East; I tend to see that conflict as one that each side has it's share of the blame.

Alexander

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]rfmcdpei
2004-03-11 02:22 pm UTC (link)
I disagree. While anti-Zionist feelings may be weaker in non-Arab parts of the Islamic world, they still exist. Immigrants to the first world may have a more nuanced point of view -- pushing for a two state solution instead of "push the Jews into the Sea", but they are far more aware of Israeli atrocities than the general (American) public, and far more willing to ascribe them to deliberate policies of the Sharon government rather than to dismiss them as bureaucratic ineptitude or a few bad apples.

Quite possible. I guess that Manji's argument depends on three things: convincing her Muslim audiences that Israeli atrocities don't differ in degree from comparable atrocities committed by many other Muslim governments; convincing her Muslim audiences that Israeli atrocities don't differ in kind; finally, convincing her Muslim audiences that in ways unconnected to these atrocities, Israel is in fact superior, not merely in terms of technological or economic development but in terms of social structures.

I haven't spoken in enough detail to non-Americans to feel comfortable comparing their views to those of the rest of the Western world which tends to think that the US has given the Israelis a blank check, but I don't get the same feeling of emotional connection to the issue when Europeans, for example, tell me how awful American foreign policy is.

I think she's going for a confrontational approach. The long-term wisdom of this approach remains to be seen.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


(Anonymous)
2004-03-12 06:42 am UTC (link)
convincing her Muslim audiences that Israeli atrocities don't differ in degree from comparable atrocities committed by many other Muslim governments;

While I don't disagree with this, I just don't see it as a necessary step. It involves taking the long road rather than the short road to more liberal and open societies.

convincing her Muslim audiences that Israeli atrocities don't differ in kind;

Here, I think that she's on shakier ground. While there certainly is discrimination against ethnic minorities in other Middle Eastern countries, Israel suffers from a peculiarly Western view. Even countries as brutal as Saddam Hussein's Iraq gave the Kurds an out: suddenly discover that you were mis-identified as Kurdish but are really Arab, and we'll stop persecuting you. In Israel, "suddenly discovering" that one is a Jew isn't an option for the West Bank and Gaza Strip Palestinians.

finally, convincing her Muslim audiences that in ways unconnected to these atrocities, Israel is in fact superior, not merely in terms of technological or economic development but in terms of social structures.

Once again, while I don't disagree with this, I just don't see why one needs to take the long and difficult road. Jumping back to my earlier analogies, if I want to convince the Israelis to build a national road system, I'd use the US as a model, not Nazi Germany, even though the Germans built theirs first, and arguably built a better one than we did. By using Nazi Germany as a model, I'd be introducing a whole slew of other issues, completely unrelated to road construction, and the Israelis whom I'd be trying to convince to build roads would be preoccupied with those issues rather than the road construction that I purport to be advocating. The same thing happens whenever one goes for the confrontational approach. If the actual goal is to convince one's audience, rather than merely to become a celebrity for saying shocking things, one needs to speak in language that makes sense to one's audience. Even if you disagrees with your audience on many other subjects, if you can build common ground with them on this one issue (whether it's road construction, democratization, or the importance of space exploration) one can build a coalition with them based upon the commonalities. One catches more flies with sugar than vinegar.

Alexander

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Anonymous)
2004-03-11 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Iran, say, has a fairly repressive legal treatment of non-heterosexual behaviour focussing heavily on whipping, and a near-total atomization of individuals.

Funny when you think about all that Persian love poetry; held by some Saffronists to have introduced the, uh, 'Islamic perversion' of homosexuality into South Asia. This probably didn't extend beyond a certain tolerance for Persian-speaking nobles to have a retinue of catamites, but still does show that attitudes were not always so monolithic.

Reading Culture Wars, I was surprised to find that one way that the Catholic Church, Catholic groups, and individual Catholics reacted to pressures for social change (democratic republicanism, civil marriage, enfranchisement of religious minorities) was by appealing to the influence of great Satanic conspiracies aimed against the Catholic faith and the preservation of souls from damnation. Jews featured prominently, but all other manner of transnational combinations (from socialists to Protestant imperialists) also featured.

This is a pretty standard reaction amongst those who are reacted badly to rapid social change on a mass scale - it almost invariably is a sign of failure and that the group that has such beleifs will be incorporated into a changing environment on terms that are not their own and so will be disadvantaged by such changes. Not a good sign that the saffronists have started waffling on about this - the so-called 'foreign hand' theory that conveniently can either be Sino-Communist, Islamic or Christian depending on the context. Also not good that some elements of contra mundis thinking has crept into some Zionist political discourse increasingly of late as well, but then we have covered this ground before.

I think what she's doing is aiming for a frontal assault. If she can demonstrate to other Muslims that, all things considered, the situation of your average Israeli Arab is better than that of your average Syrian, or Iranian, then it could serve as a spur for change. Possibly.

I don't really buy this - I mean given how strong nationalism and religious feeling can be in the ME and amongst many Muslims generally; taking the example of a state that has dispossessed a large number of them, reduced the remainder within its borders to a second-status (albeit stable) citizen-ship status and indulges in quite indiscriminate violence from time to time is not going to be reassuring. The other problem is that most Muslims and Arabs are going to identify with the Palestinians and look at what is happening to them rather than the Israeli Arabs - who ironically are starting to do the same as well. It strikes me that this is a counter-productive path to go down; particularly as many of the Arab regimes don't exactly enjoy a high level of popular legitimacy anyway - their citizens know very well what liberties and opportunities they are being denied.

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-11 04:36 pm UTC (link)
cont.

True, but for conservative Muslim population, the way things exist in Israel might well be preferable--from the perspectives of religious liberty generally--than the French model of laicity, say.

This is the problem though isn't it and this is why I dislike Manji's line of reasoning. Israel for me is certainly not a particularly ideal standard of a democracy or a nationalism to adopt and anybody interested in egalitarian and real pluralist democratic change in the should look further. In other words, I think it is not good enough to go just as far as Israel has but to go further - many of the potential obstacles faced by ME states won't be the same: they won't be struggling to impart Hebrew as a national language but to preserve minority ones like Kurdish, Turkmen etc. they won't be seeking to subsume multi-ethnic identities into some greater form of ethno-nationalism as Zionism has done with the Mizrahi and other non-Ashkenazi Jews but to incorporate their own sub-national ethncities in a multi-cultural and pluralist fashion without eroding their identites. These important differences in the nature of nation-construction and state-building lead me to think that there is not much one can learn from Israel in this regard and the lessons available are not the right ones - of course I am speaking from a secular pluralist-nationalist perspective but this is I think the best model for Arab states in the region as well as politically the most progressive.

I think her point was that homophobia is present and supported in the core of the Muslim world in a way that it isn't in the core of the (nominally) Christian world, or the Jewish world for that matter

You mean, not now, in secularised Christian states/societies; it certainly is where older or more evangelicial forms of Christianity are still dominant - attitudes towards sexuality aren't all that different. Also I guess that outside the 'core' attitudes are a bit more tolerant; as in Indonesia (from what I can remember anyway). Still, I feel this is a social problem, rather than mainly a religious one; though conditions in the Arab ME must be different. There is also a lot of hypocrisy about this whole issue as well - the most popular stereotype of the village Mullah in South Asia is that of a pederast who abuses his young male students and even under the Taliban there were man accounts of warlords and commanders keeping attractive male concubines for themselves.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Anonymous)
2004-03-10 04:13 pm UTC (link)
(cont.)

3) A fair point about Mahathir’s little diatribe but surely she misses the basic rationale behind this kind of anti-Israeli rhetoric. In the ME at least, it is obvious that for many corrupt petro-fuelled regimes it is less an article of faith than a way of deflecting attention from domestic stangantion of political and economic liberties. What is needed is not a recognition of Israel per se, but a big push on the domestic reform agenda – after all Israel had a good relationship with the Pahlavi regime and this didn’t exactly mean that civil society was flourishing in Iran at the time. Of course it didn’t do too well after the 1979 Revolution either, but it is important to note that the current impatience and desire for reform within Iran has strong autonomous and cthonic roots – Iranian pro-democracy activists don’t need to look to Israel to know how they are being stiffed, they can see it right for themselves. I have to say I think she has got things the wrong way around and seems to think that the relationship between the Islamic world and Israel or the West if it changes will allow internal regeneration – in my opinion this linkage is a robust one but I would reverse the flow of causality. It seems bizarre to suggest otherwise.

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[info]rfmcdpei
2004-03-11 06:06 am UTC (link)
3) A fair point about Mahathir’s little diatribe but surely she misses the basic rationale behind this kind of anti-Israeli rhetoric. In the ME at least, it is obvious that for many corrupt petro-fuelled regimes it is less an article of faith than a way of deflecting attention from domestic stangantion of political and economic liberties.

What is needed is not a recognition of Israel per se, but a big push on the domestic reform agenda – after all Israel had a good relationship with the Pahlavi regime and this didn’t exactly mean that civil society was flourishing in Iran at the time.

Of course it didn’t do too well after the 1979 Revolution either,

I'll be contrarian and say that it did. Certainly the reforms promoted by the Islamic regime, extending literacy, managing to give women relatively more autonomy, and effacing traditional provincial and local loyalties, did a better job at creating an Iranian civil society than the Shah's spend-everything strategy.

but it is important to note that the current impatience and desire for reform within Iran has strong autonomous and cthonic roots – Iranian pro-democracy activists don’t need to look to Israel to know how they are being stiffed, they can see it right for themselves.

I think she's aiming for a broader audience.

I have to say I think she has got things the wrong way around and seems to think that the relationship between the Islamic world and Israel or the West if it changes will allow internal regeneration – in my opinion this linkage is a robust one but I would reverse the flow of causality. It seems bizarre to suggest otherwise.

I believe that in this respect, her argument might be as much shock as its straightforward position. I'm not sure how effective it would be, but still.

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(Anonymous)
2004-03-11 04:48 pm UTC (link)
I think she's aiming for a broader audience.

Yeah but who exactly? I can’t see that anybody involved in pro-democracy movements in the Arab ME needs this kind of education – and a lot of these people, just like their counterparts in the West will be not necessarily be all that progressive or liberal on issues like homosexuality. I can’t see here pointing out any of the broader structures at work – what about the political economy of the region? The strategic neccesity of oil, role of arms sales, petro-dollars etc? US foreing policy hasn’t exactly been progressive and has played a major role in propping regimes that disseminate this kind of crap – it has in fact been key in doing so. There is also the problem of nationalism and democracy – it is all very well to have greater democratisation as well as a more fleixble and broad-based nationalism but this could escalate conflict and not reduce it – as we noted wrt Iraq and Kuwait, the incorporation of which has been a long-standing nationalist demand which enjoys substantial popularity. Similarly, popular democratic regimes would not necessarily be anymore benevolently disposed towards Israel as long as the IP conflict continues – I am reminded of the Weimar republic politiciances like Rathenau and Streseman who were lauded in the West as moderate Centrists of liberals; in contrast to the more intemperate Rightwing nationalists or the Left. What this ignored was the fact that virtually the entire German political elite had a consensus on revising the 1919 settlement in the East; including ostensible liberals like Streseman; the latter simply were willing to delay this and use peaceful ends to achieve it but its seriousness and desirability were never questioned as a goal of foreign policy. Similarly we cannot assume that mere social liberalisation or political democratisation will resolve or reduce the intensity of antagonism in the region, they will in all likelihood increase or perpetuate it – but channelled through democratic politics this could be much more violent and serious than ebfore given the greater mobilisational capacities of democratic regimes for modern warfare. A peace settlement must proceed concurrently or precede these kinds of moves –either that or follow them rapidly; but Manji seems to be uninterested in these problems. And a bit too interested, if I might say so, in point-scoring, which while a nice enough way for someone in her position to bolster her credentials and pass her time; is not going to provide any real constructive solutions.

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Flight of Ancient Christians from the Middle East
(Anonymous)
2004-03-11 11:49 pm UTC (link)
The Middle East is emptying of its many ancient Jewish and Christian communities. Haifa, Betlehem, Nazaret are nowadays extremist Muslim towns, as are Beirut and Aleppo. I cannot imagine why or how Israel could be behind these ethnic cleansings. Should 250 millions NE Muslims owerpower the 5 million strong Jewish community of Israel, you will find me too in asking for a Canadian visa.

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It seems that someone has paid a lot of things that enable her to speak nasty.
(Anonymous)
2004-10-19 09:10 pm UTC (link)
Strangely, for someone who claimed to want to make things better, she said a lot of fowl things that made things worse. It's said that you can't change others and you can only change yourself, I guess that's a lesson many people don't want to learn.

She speak things negatively, then some people will react negatively, most people are capable restraining themself (God's love is the only reason on why she isn't dead yet), but some don't. If she couldn't understand this simple matter, it's either that she didn't have brain or didnt understand the natural law of action and reaction. Or maybe that she understand, but it's just like Yoda said, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny".

But if she talk kindly and nice about things, I doubt that 'they' would allow her to talk at all. 'They' only interested of allowing people talk nasty about many things (anything! Qur'an, Talmud, Bible, and so on), what 'they' are not interested is for people to said nice truthful things that will make people together.

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