Jo Walton ([info]papersky) wrote,
@ 2005-02-05 10:08:00
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Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell
Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell is clearly written from an alternate universe where the great fantasy-defining genre-starting book of the twentieth century, after Dunsany, was not Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings but Hope Mirlees Lud-in-the-Mist. It's not a great deal like Lud-in-the-Mist, but it's much closer to it than it is to anything else, or than Lud-in-the-Mist is to anything else.

I loved Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell. I expected to. I've been waiting for a novel from Susanna Clarke since reading her story "The Ladies of Grace Adieu" in Starlight 1. "Grace Adieu" is set in the same world and has some of the concerns of the novel. I think it would be a pretty good guide for anyone liking one liking the other.

It's written in an elegant witty true omniscient, a true omni that makes me think I should just crawl under the bed with a bucket on my head for ever thinking I could do it. (Incidentally, if you liked the voice in Tooth and Claw, which is actually SF by my definition below, you'll love JS & MN.) It's an omni that can get away with the most wonderful things, though unfortunately most of them are spoilers and thus unsuitable to quote. It is written in such a way that one longs to read it aloud. It made me laugh frequently, just with the beautiful way it puts things.

It's set at the beginning of the nineteenth century, in an England that is the same but distorted by the operation of magic on history, and it concerns the bringing back of practical English magic.

What it's about is the tension between the numinous and the known. The helical plot, which ascends slowly upwards, constantly circles a space in which the numinous and the known balance and shift and elements move between them. It's a truly astonishing feat and I've never seen anything like it.

Fantasy approaches the numinous, that's my definition of it, that's what, for me, divides it from SF and historical fiction. There's a problem in writing about the numinous, especially about magic that works, denizens of faerie you can converse with, in that as you approach it, it becomes mundane. It approaches Clarke's Law from the other side, and magic risks becoming nothing but technology. The terrible enemy dissolves into an old cloak. (The Dark in Hambly's Darwath books are the easiest example of this.) There are ways of dealing with this, which have been laboriously worked out and laboriously copied -- Tolkien does it by sheer use of language, other people have explored what it would mean for magic to be technology. Magic has costs is one typical answer, seen well done in Hobb's Farseer trilogy and Kay's Fionavar. There's Dean's Dubious Hills answer, of what is numinous when magic is as everyday as making dinner. But part of the problem is the difficulty of approaching the numinous directly. Fantasy typically tries to edge around this and approach it from different directions.

Clarke goes straight at it in the structure of the novel and the balance of the novel and the plot. It's the fulcrum of the whole thing. It's quite incredible that she makes it work, but there it is, as one thing moves from the numinous to the known, another appears in that direction, and the whole thing pivots around the space in which this is happening, never losing anything in either direction.

I think this is the most significant thing done with this in years. It's as if we've all been building sandcastles in the shadow of a cliff and suddenly Clarke has raised a great castle out of the sea with a strange light shining through the foam-water windows.


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[info]bellinghman
2005-02-05 03:54 pm UTC (link)
I'm inclined to agree. Clarke writes with wonderful assurance, too - I love the way she drops an entire short story is as a four page footnote at one point. But most of all, it's driven by the characters of Strange and Norrell who don't really mesh in the way that a more conventional writer would have had them do. This made the story follow a less predictable path.

I did love Strange's Peninsula War dealings. There was some rather wonderful humour coming from his 'minor' oversights.

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[info]daegaer
2005-02-05 04:05 pm UTC (link)
I have JS &MN sitting waiting for me to begin - and I've been holding off, afraid that everyone is fibbing and I'll be horribly disappointed. I think I might start it now, though!

For omniscient voice, have you read Michel Fabre's The Scarlet Petal and the White? It starts with the narrator/book addressing the reader on Victorian England as an alien civilisation, and goes on to weave in and out of the lives of characters of all classes. It's excellent.

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Just to pick nits
[info]oursin
2005-02-05 04:15 pm UTC (link)
Faber, and Crimson (quote from Tennyson's 'Maud' - 'Now sleeps the Crimson Petal, now the White'). Yes, an excellent (almost olfactory!) creation/recreation of a society.

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Re: Just to pick nits
[info]daegaer
2005-02-05 04:29 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! I was confused by the Michel - I spent a long time calling him "Michael Faber" until corrected, so I obviously made him even Frencher! And I've had "scarlet" on the brain ever since a class became a discussion of Gone with the Wind last week.

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To confuse the matter still further...
[info]oursin
2005-02-05 04:33 pm UTC (link)
Faber is Dutch-Australian (and thus was not eligible for the Booker...)

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Re: To confuse the matter still further...
[info]daegaer
2005-02-05 04:50 pm UTC (link)
That's a pity (er, about his non-eligibility, not his ethnic background) - I want that book to have won every prize going, I love it so much.

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Re: Just to pick nits
[info]supergee
2005-02-05 04:39 pm UTC (link)
You mean the British don't do that with all words? Centre, litre, Fabre....

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Re: Just to pick nits
[info]daegaer
2005-02-05 04:47 pm UTC (link)
Heh, no. Nor do the Irish ;-)

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[info]papersky
2005-02-05 06:54 pm UTC (link)
I haven't read it. The Trollope List had very mixed views on it. I think they have it at the library. I should pick it up.

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[info]zadcat
2005-02-05 04:32 pm UTC (link)
I hadn't been particularly going to read JS&MN but Lud-in-the-Mist is an old favourite of mine, so maybe now I'll look out for it. Thanks!

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[info]rivka
2005-02-05 04:38 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I adored that book. It was marvelous. And very frustrating, because now I want to read another dozen books that are very similar to it, and, as you point out, there aren't many to choose from.

I'm glad that you wrote about it.

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A slow start
(Anonymous)
2005-02-05 05:21 pm UTC (link)
I felt bereft when turning over the last page of this novel. That said, I fell asleep 3 times during the first 50 pages and struggled to get into if for the first third. The somewhat episodic nature of the novel makes it easy to put down for a bit. I also had to accept that this is not a novel one reads to get somewhere, but a novel one reads to be somewhere. I ended up loving JS&MN, and just wanted to assure any others who might find it hard going in the begining that it turns into a delight.

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[info]marykaykare
2005-02-05 05:49 pm UTC (link)
I adored this book as well, though it took me a very long time to read it, though not because it is long. I found it read rather quickly actually, but I because of the nature of the world it inhabits, it was necessary to read it in bites of at least 100 pages at a time. And I began reading it just before World Fantasy Con and so it was majorly interrupted by my election work and my disappointment/depression at the election results. When I was able to get to it again though, I had no trouble whatsoever getting back into it and finished it up quite quickly.


As your anonymous correspondent notes it takes some work to get into but that is not because the book is lacking but because we are. I had to learn the conventions and background of the time and place where it happens. I expect I will be reading it again this spring as I'm pretty sure it'll be on the Mythopoeic Fantasy Award list. Indeed, I have nominated it myself.

It is a book which makes me smile whenever I think about it.

MKK

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[info]papersky
2005-02-05 06:53 pm UTC (link)
I didn't find the beginning hard going, but I suppose I'm already there with the conventions and background of the real time and place, so I could just get into the fantasy thing right away.

It ought to win the Mythopoeic and the World Fantasy and whatever else we have to give it. A Hugo maybe, since we're giving Hugos to fantasy now.

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[info]wild_patience
2005-02-05 11:41 pm UTC (link)
I nominated it for the MFA, too. Although to be honest, I thought McKillip's Alphabet of Thorns was a better book. (I nominated that too, of course. And I was pleased to see the McKillip is now out in paperback.)

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[info]marykaykare
2005-02-05 11:45 pm UTC (link)
As soon as I shut down the computer, I'm going to the library to pick up the McKillip. So I'll be able to discuss it someday soon.

MKK

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[info]pegkerr
2005-02-05 05:54 pm UTC (link)
Now I'm even more eager to read it.

I haven't read any Dunsany. *hangs her head in shame* Where should I start?

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[info]papersky
2005-02-05 06:48 pm UTC (link)
There's a British Fantasy Masterworks collection called Time and the Gods which is a really good set of his short stories, some of which are just astonishing. There were also some old Lin Carter collections, which can still be found around second hand, which are also good.

His best, and also easiest to find, novel is The King of Elfland's Daughter.

Dunsany is a bit like very strong spirits, for me, a little nip now and again is strengthening and intoxicating, but too much leaves me reeling.

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[info]krfsm
2005-02-05 10:55 pm UTC (link)
Chaosium, the role-playing game company, published a collection of his Pegāna stories (it's an omnibus of The Gods of Pegāna, Time And The Gods, and Beyond The Fields We Know) in 1998, titled The Complete Pegāna: All the Tales Petaining to the Fabulous Realm of Pegāna. Edited and introduced by S.T. Joshi.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-06 11:41 pm UTC (link)
There's also a Penguin collection of Dunsany's short fiction now out in the US, which is probably going to be easier for you to get hold of than the British Fantasy Masterworks one. And his two best novels, The King of Elfland's Daughter and The Charwoman's Shadow, are in print. (Del Rey has given the laterr a completely inappropriate schlock horror cover. Just pretend it has a lovely Pre-Raphaelite reproduction like the former, which is far more fitting.)

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[info]nanne
2005-02-05 08:08 pm UTC (link)
I adored this book! I remember starting to read more slowly after the first half, afraid I would run out too soon. A friend of mine compared it to Jane Austen and I think I can see that, but I definitely didn't feel that when I read it, perhaps because the female characters tend do be in the background; it misses the female perspective, I guess. What would your reaction be to the comparison with JA? I think I will need to read it a second time to really understand the work, especially in terms of the plot.

I'm reading Quicksilver right now; I cannot seem to get myself away from the 1700s ^_^

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[info]papersky
2005-02-06 01:53 pm UTC (link)
I expect your friend hasn't read very much set in that period and written in true omni, so that was the comparison. I don't think it's otherwise very much like Austen at all, I can't really think of any shared concerns or perspective. It seems to me an obvious comparison but not a useful one, if you see what I mean.

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[info]txanne
2005-02-05 08:17 pm UTC (link)
And speaking of the numinous: It's as if we've all been building sandcastles in the shadow of a cliff and suddenly Clarke has raised a great castle out of the sea with a strange light shining through the foam-water windows.

Wow.

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[info]niall_
2005-02-06 02:19 am UTC (link)
Now there's a book review that really makes me want to read it. :)

By the way, you said: It is written in such a way that one longs to read it aloud. While not as well-read as many of the other commentators here, I find previous few books I could read to others easily, that would flow nicely. They read-along wonderfully, but read-aloud awkwardly. Maybe I have had bad luck in books, though.

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[info]papersky
2005-02-06 01:58 pm UTC (link)
I've done a lot of reading aloud, and a fair bit of being read to. I've had the experience you describe -- most notably with Heinlein. I love Heinlein, but he reads-aloud awkwardly for me. Things that worked best tend to be children's books, travel books, Ursula Le Guin, and The Lord of the Rings. I've read LOTR aloud all the way through twice, before [info]zorinth was old enough to read it for himself.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-02-06 08:59 pm UTC (link)
There's an unabridged audiobook of it, which is 32 hours and 2 minutes long. =>

I haven't gotten to reading the book yet, myself, but I'm looking forward to it.

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[info]calanthe_b
2005-02-06 11:02 pm UTC (link)
Who reads it, do you know?

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-02-06 11:05 pm UTC (link)
Simon Prebble, who is apparently well-regarded in the field.

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[info]calanthe_b
2005-02-06 11:08 pm UTC (link)
Ah. Not a name or a voice I recognise, I'm afraid. You'd have to have the right sort of voice to pull off a recording of that book...I hope he has it!

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-02-06 11:14 pm UTC (link)
Very short review:

http://www.audiofilemagazine.com/reviews/showreview_pub.cfm?Num=20432

If you go to audible.com and find it (they have a weird URL system that doesn't appear to allow direct linking), and have Real Player, you can listen to an excerpt.

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[info]calanthe_b
2005-02-06 11:18 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the link! Sounds like he does a good job.

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[info]maviscruet
2005-02-06 03:16 pm UTC (link)
I like JD and MN in fact i've been lending out my copy and trying to talk people into getting it since reading it. However, I've got to say that I don't think it's go that good an ending. Don't get me wrong the rest of the book is so good that makes very little difference... Felt almost like I was reading a neil stephenson book....

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[info]calanthe_b
2005-02-06 11:00 pm UTC (link)
I think you have managed to say here everything I wanted to say about Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell but couldn't find the words for because of being too stunned by how good it is.

Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell is clearly written from an alternate universe where the great fantasy-defining genre-starting book of the twentieth century, after Dunsany, was not Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings but Hope Mirlees Lud-in-the-Mist.

Yes. Exactly. Dunsany and Lud-in-the-Mist are just it.

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[info]peregrinuscanus
2005-02-13 09:08 am UTC (link)
I read JS&MN in a few days because the scenario was so well-developed and the key characters so interlocked, but overall I thought there were less impressive aspects to the book. The language is quite repetitive, and sometimes quite arbitrary as to the 'olde' spellings so that you stumble over 'chuse' and 'sopha' when they appear rather than them flowing with the text. The Peninsular War episodes are overlong and laboured and the discernment of Lady Pole's problem overlooked again and again. The famed multiple footnotes initially prove as interesting and sidetracking as faerie paths, but become wearisome towards the end of the book where they are used more as devices for reminding us of characters/books of magic that the author has mentioned before 600+ pages before.

There are far too many named characters - one-page incidentals who are given a few sentences for their life-circumstances/history and then dropped. And for all of these, the name I really wanted was that of the 'thistle-haired' faerie - it didn't seem reasonable in the context that we were not given his name. Even the 'nameless' John Uskglass was more defined.

It also seemed that the author seemed to have a personal axe to grind on the theme of religion v. magic (her father is a Methodist minister) - the raising of Lady Pole is almost an exact replay of the healing of Jairus' daughter (minus faerie magic), and variously the author includes both Moses and Aaron *and* John Wesley amongst those who have had faerie-aided lives.

I loved the ending as much as anything in the book - the madness, the unending tower of night, the realignment of practical magic in the isle, the coming together of Jonathan and Norrell, the saving of Arabella (bit too vague how it was done though). Despite my grievances with it, I am eager for a sequel - for more on the magicians and Childermass/ Vinculus and the Raven King.

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[info]lethargic_man
2007-08-05 10:26 am UTC (link)
the name I really wanted was that of the 'thistle-haired' faerie - it didn't seem reasonable in the context that we were not given his name.

He says in chapter 8, "I have been the servant and confidential friend of Thomas Godbless, Ralph Stokesey, Martin Pale and of the Raven King. Assuming he's telling the truth (and were he not, why would Norrell have summoned him), I get the impression if you were to go through the book with a fine-toothed comb, making careful record of the fairies referred to in the main text and the footnotes, you could work out who he is: it's a puzzle for the dedicated reader.

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it...

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