ozarque ([info]ozarque) wrote,
@ 2005-12-05 14:34:00
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80-dollar jeans and morality.....
The discussion of the morality of buying 80-dollar jeans is getting a tad testy. Which is not surprising, because it's a discussion of a many-sided unanswerable question. I'm not foolish enough to think I have an answer to offer.

Suppose I refuse to spend $80.00 (or $150.00) on a pair of designer jeans. Not a single starving child or starving adult will be any better off because I've done that.

Suppose I refuse to spend $80.00 or more for a pair of designer jeans, and I buy a pair at a thrift shop for $10.00 and give the $70.00 I've saved to Heifer International, where it will go toward providing a hungry family somewhere [including poverty-stricken areas in the United States as well as all around the world] a cow or a pig or some chickens. I've helped one family a little bit -- not much, but a little bit -- and because HI requires those who are given domestic animals to give the first offspring of those animals to another family, I may have helped more than one family a little bit. But hey.... there are millions of people in desperate poverty. It's a drop in the bucket, right?

Suppose I insist on spending $20.00 for a pair of jeans at a store like WalMart so I'll have the $60.00 to give to Heifer International. Good for the family HI gives the animals to .... but whoever made those $20.00 jeans for WalMart is being paid far too little, and everybody knows WalMart is wicked, right? Now I've encouraged a wicked corporation by buying its products and helping it go on underpaying its employees (and giving them totally inadequate benefit packages) and destroying mom-and-pop stores all over the country. Never mind that I know people whose kids would have no jeans if it weren't for WalMart, and lots of people who'd have no jobs at all if it weren't for WalMart. Surely that's irrelevant.

And then there's the fact that, as my mother always (and often) said, it's not fair to punish rich people for working hard and making money and getting ahead in the world and looking after themselves. People who do those things are entitled to buy $80.00 jeans if they want to; it's their money, they've earned it by their honest labor, and they're entitled to spend it as wisely or as frivolously as they like. While other people were sitting around bitching because they only had a job at WalMart and were never going to be able to afford $80.00 jeans, those people -- the rich ones -- were out working 18-hour days and two or three jobs if that's what it took, and refusing to settle for staying poor. Why should they be punished for that? Plus, they have to bear the burdens that come with wealth (a topic I'll come back to another time, because things are already complicated enough in this post). They deserve 80-dollar jeans.

Some months back we had a heated discussion here about the idea that giving people fish feeds them for a day but teaching them to fish equips them to feed themselves thereafter. Which means that when I help Heifer International give a family a cow I'm really doing that family harm, because they didn't earn that cow, right? How will they ever learn, if people keep giving them things?

Where is the end of the string you pull to straighten out this mess? I don't know. I have a feeling that education (by which I do most emphatically not mean the "No Child Left Behind" program) is the end of that string, but that's just my guess; I may be totally wrong.

Still, tangled as I am in all this mess ... I sincerely thank you for your comments, and for being willing to participate in the discussion.


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[info]neonchameleon
2005-12-05 02:48 pm UTC (link)
Where is the end of the string you pull to straighten out this mess?

Fairtrade is the obvious one.

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[info]ozarque
2005-12-05 03:05 pm UTC (link)
You're blessed to be able to see anything in this mess as obvious.

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(no subject) - [info]neonchameleon, 2005-12-05 03:19 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]hagsrus
2005-12-05 02:53 pm UTC (link)
Which means that when I help Heifer International give a family a cow I'm really doing that family harm, because they didn't earn that cow, right? How will they ever learn, if people keep giving them things?

It seems to me this is pretty much equivalent to teaching the family to fish, assuming they will use the heifer to breed and give milk rather than butchering it for immediate food.

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[info]ozarque
2005-12-05 03:04 pm UTC (link)
I hope you're right. That's why most of my charity budget goes to Heifer International. For just that reason.

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(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-05 03:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kaytecat, 2005-12-06 12:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delurker, 2005-12-06 02:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]celticdragonfly, 2005-12-05 04:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]aerope, 2005-12-05 08:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-12-05 05:54 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]snippy
2005-12-05 02:58 pm UTC (link)
You've left out how spending $80 on the jeans makes jobs for people, too. Possibly better jobs, possibly not.

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[info]ozarque
2005-12-05 03:03 pm UTC (link)
Of course. You're quite right. I've probably left out as many things as I've put in, and that's a perennial symptom of the confusion around this issue.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mermaidjeans
2005-12-05 03:20 pm UTC (link)
Usually not. You would think those $80 jeans would be made here in the States, where factory labor is usually union labor which means better wages and benefits, but they aren't. Not even the nice hemp jeans I wish I could afford. *snerk* So you've got someone in a third-world country making pennies a week to sew these things, and I'm afraid the CEO and the shareholders of the jeans company are the ones making most of the money. If setting up factories in the Third World really lifted people out of poverty, well, it's been twenty and thirty years and more since some of those were set up--some of Mattel's toy factories, for instance. Guess what? Third Worlders are still poor.

This goes back to what [info]ozarque said about how getting rich is a result of working hard--well, it really isn't. It's more a combination of luck and being smart with what money you have, and even then that doesn't always work. It's easier to get ahead in life as a welfare recipient in this country if you learn how to be smart with your money than it is to do that in, say, Mexico. A lot of it's where you're born, in what social class, and just how much money you have to be smart with.

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(no subject) - [info]babalon_it, 2005-12-05 03:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mermaidjeans, 2005-12-05 04:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beckyzoole, 2005-12-05 06:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ethesis, 2005-12-06 02:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]babalon_it, 2005-12-08 03:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]babalon_it, 2005-12-08 03:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]orangemike, 2005-12-12 08:26 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]interactiveleaf
2005-12-05 03:05 pm UTC (link)
People who do those things are entitled to buy $80.00 jeans if they want to; it's their money, they've earned it by their honest labor, and they're entitled to spend it as wisely or as frivolously as they like. While other people were sitting around bitching because they only had a job at WalMart and were never going to be able to afford $80.00 jeans, those people -- the rich ones -- were out working 18-hour days and two or three jobs if that's what it took, and refusing to settle for staying poor.


That's a whole mess of unsupported and quite possibly invalid assumptions you've got in there.

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[info]crossfire_
2005-12-05 04:16 pm UTC (link)
No more unsupported and quite possibly invalid as any other assumptions about rich people.

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(no subject) - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-12-05 05:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]crossfire_, 2005-12-05 06:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Terms, and sides.... - [info]ozarque, 2005-12-05 06:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]urox, 2005-12-05 07:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bimmer1200, 2005-12-05 07:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-05 07:51 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-12-05 07:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]orangemike, 2005-12-12 08:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fibermom, 2005-12-06 12:30 am UTC (Expand)

[info]polypolyglot
2005-12-05 03:14 pm UTC (link)
You raise some excellent points that are food for thought. Thanks!

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[info]wolfangel78
2005-12-05 03:33 pm UTC (link)
No one *deserves* 80$ jeans, not in the same way they deserve food and shelter and clothing and to not be abused. But that doesn't mean it's wrong to buy them. Do I really need a stand mixer? I could mix things by hand, after all. Do I really need a high pair AND a low pair of winter boots? (Well, probably yes.) Do I need to have two umbrellas? Do I really need to buy so many books? I could donate all that money to the library! (They won't accept just any book; there's a space crunch.) Do I really need to buy more expensive cheeses? Why cheese at all, if other foods are cheaper? I don't really need to travel. Etc.

I think it's absurd to buy 2000$ jeans, sure. And I think it's wrong not to give money to charity. But I also think it's *more* wrong to attack someone else's every luxury, as if no one has the right to spend a penny more than they absolutely have to on anything given that some people don't have enough. (I will grant someone the right if they can show they don't spend any money on luxuries or time-savers, at all. I'll think it's obnoxious, but at least it's consistent.)

Further, and unrelatedly, I don't think people are rich because they've worked more or harder than people who are poor. Fundamentally, I think they're *luckier*. Your other side of the argument is argued not as strongly as it could have been.

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[info]undauntra
2005-12-06 01:15 am UTC (link)
Um... I don't see where people /deserve/ food and shelter and clothing, either. You earn those things - they don't get handed to you for free.

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(no subject) - [info]wolfangel78, 2005-12-06 03:44 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]undauntra, 2005-12-07 03:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-12-07 11:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ab_xnfp, 2005-12-07 06:35 am UTC (Expand)

[info]neonchameleon
2005-12-05 03:36 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and a good start is that the way you measure how civilised a society is is by how it treats the weakest rather than the strongest.

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(no subject) - [info]dpolicar, 2005-12-05 05:20 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]toshfraggle
2005-12-05 04:30 pm UTC (link)
I'll add in that if you spend $10 at a thrift store when you could afford the $70 you are also doing two additional things:

1. Now someone who could not afford the more expensive jeans can't even buy the ones you selected because you have them (and while there are plenty of jeans in the world, there aren't always a lot of nice shirts etc. at such stores)

and

2. You've failed to contribute to the big bad economy in the way you are expected to, which could in turn somewhere down the road cause somebody to lose their job and become the poor person. If people don't spend money the economy suffers. If people spend too much money and artifically inflate the economy it suffers. It's a thin line to walk. I pay $30 for my jeans, personally. :)

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(no subject) - [info]beckyzoole, 2005-12-05 06:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]toshfraggle, 2005-12-05 06:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]urox, 2005-12-05 07:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]urox, 2005-12-05 07:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]thecert, 2005-12-06 12:29 am UTC (Expand)
Add in "buy the $20 jeans at Costco"
[info]tibbi
2005-12-05 05:05 pm UTC (link)
now you are supporting a company that does well
by its employees. Not to mention Wall Street dislikes
Costco for showing people can be treated decently,
like human beings, and yet still do well in the marketplace.

Or you can buy at a place like Bi-Mart, which is employee
owned. That balances things a little more as well.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Add in "buy the $20 jeans at Costco" - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-12-05 05:49 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Add in "buy the $20 jeans at Costco" - [info]crossfire_, 2005-12-05 06:17 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]marykaykare
2005-12-05 07:19 pm UTC (link)
I bought a $75 pair of Ralph Lauren jeans because it was the latest of an endless series of cold grey rainy days and they were bright bright yellow which made me want them, or their color, desperately. And they fit.

As it turned out, they were comfortable, durable, and well constructed. I have since bought other RL clothes, though mostly on sale, and have been happy enough with them that I usually look at their section when I clothes shop. I admit I have no idea who makes their clothing but it seems high quality stuff. I wear large sizes so I'm going to pay more than average for my clothes to start with so I might as well get quality.

MKK

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[info]bimmer1200
2005-12-06 12:15 am UTC (link)
I just saw this commercial.

If you ask me, the girl earned the 80.00 jeans from her father. She provided him with information about a trend. Enough that he bought 100 shares of the stock of the company making the jeans. If you notice, he also sits down and takes the time to explain what he's doing and why. Let's just take the closing price for Ralph Lauren today of $51.70 as the price as it is the first designer clothing brand that I know is publically traded. The S&P 500 average ROI for a year is a little over 7%, so we'll use that as we're just ballparking here. At the end of the year that's a profit of around $360.00. The $80.00 for her jeans represent 25% of his profits. Seems to me to be a fair consulting fee and a good way to teach her a little about the market. That's one way of looking at it anyway.

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[info]fibermom
2005-12-06 12:34 am UTC (link)
I want to add this comment because I feel sure that it represents a point of view that will not otherwise be represented. A girl that I work with says that she buys $80 jeans because they make her look really good, thus increasing her chances of marriage, which is her personal career goal. Cheap jeans, she says, don't make your bottom look that good.

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(no subject) - [info]ladyvorkosigan, 2005-12-06 01:31 am UTC (Expand)

[info]desert_born
2005-12-06 02:04 am UTC (link)
While other people were sitting around bitching because they only had a job at WalMart and were never going to be able to afford $80.00 jeans, those people -- the rich ones -- were out working 18-hour days and two or three jobs if that's what it took, and refusing to settle for staying poor.

There is a huge fallacy here, and one I often encounter among people who have been well-to-do all their lives. It is certainly true that hard work will get you further along the road to riches than sitting and bitching will, but the implication of that statement is that hard work is the primary or only factor in acquiring wealth. But oftentimes, poverty has little to do with effort (similar fallacy: all poor people are lazy.) and much more to do with circumstance, environment, persistent health problems, lack of intelligence, lack of motivation, lack of language skills, lack of access to appropriate information, nutrition, health care, culture, etc.

For some people, no matter how hard they work and how much they try to save, they will never be rich. They have too many factors that are detrimental to getting rich and staying there. In fact, one might argue that the whole "wealth" game is rigged in favor of the already-rich and the nearly-rich, because those are the ones who have the best chance of vaulting into the fabled "land of rich".

The other half of this fallacy, is, of course, that "work" is the way to get rich. As anyone with more than $100,000 to their name will tell you, investment is the way to true wealth. The richest people make 95% of their money from investments. But investing is a rich-person's game to start with -- you need to have money to spare to invest properly.

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[info]ethesis
2005-12-06 02:27 am UTC (link)
As I noted, fast internet connections, extra rooms, other issues.

But, the most important thing to do is to think. There is not enough time, there is not enough ... it is not our duty to change that, but instead to do what we should be doing in that context, to find our balance.

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[info]nancylebov
2005-12-06 02:37 am UTC (link)
The only reason there are nice clothes in the thrift shop is that someone bought the clothes and gave them away while they were still in good condition.

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[info]wizwom
2005-12-06 05:57 am UTC (link)
What it comes down to is what is fair value, I think.

The material to make a pair of jeans is about 2.50, retail. The equiptment is also pretty cheap - $250 buys a nice Singer commercial model quite powerful. The time invested in the making of the jeans is trivial - if it takes 10 minutes to put together a pair on the assembly line, then you're too slow, I would suppose. But even if it's a full hour, where are we?

Perhaps, even made in America, we're talking $5 as a reasonable raw cost of the product. The time to design a pair of pants - even with fancy swirls, or something - can't be too long, I've seen a whole costume put together in half an hour (not for comemrcial production, but still).

We've got a HUGE amount of profit involved in that pair of jeans - and a huge amount of mark-up to pay for fancy stores and clueless help and bright lights. And advertisement.

And still, the designer jean companies need to sell an outrageously few number of pairs to make a profit. Levi Strauss does, too. heck, even those brand new Wranglers at Sears are going to be overpriced, in the end.

Americans - and America, in genreal - has lost a sense for what things really cost. Companies don't even blush at charging $5 for a box of cereal that has $0.10 of grain in it and $.05 cents of sugar. Yes, refusing the "need" for an $80 pair of jeans is a step in the right direction; but the valuable lesson that needs to be given to children is just how grossly over reality America seems willing to pay.

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(no subject) - [info]nancylebov, 2005-12-06 06:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2005-12-08 02:12 am UTC (Expand)

[info]nancylebov
2005-12-06 06:31 pm UTC (link)
If the problem is that hard and that vague, maybe it's because what you buy isn't a good point of leverage for helping poor people.

Also, just as a general point, the occasional $80 pair of jeans probably isn't that big a deal if you can afford them. Looking at your whole clothing budget for whether it makes sense might take you farther.

You might be amused or bemused by this: http://www.bagborroworsteal.com/. It's a company structured like netflix for borrowing designer handbags.

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[info]ab_xnfp
2005-12-07 06:54 am UTC (link)
Here's my monkey wrench. How about those poor little rich kids like Paris Hilton? Sure, she's earned a little money by doing some TV. But face it the bulk of her wealth will be inherited.

But, don't forget, well-to-do and educated people end up on the street every day. Stunned, usually. It's easy to lose one's toe-hold in this society and the people who could make the difference hide behind their rationalizations. Once upon a time alot of them tithed and those monies largely went to charity. But...

The charities have to save their funds for the worst off, and often a huge difference could be made in the whole shebang if those who are in the process of 'slipping down' could be caught and given a boost up.

Our Depression Elders treated credit like the plague. I am proud to say that other than debit cards, I have never had a credit card (I'm 42) and it's true I've never had a new car to my name, but I've never hurt for one. Daddy (who grew up in the car business) would never buy a new car. He always bought 1 and 2 year old cars because 'they had the bugs shook out'.

Alot of things are out of whack, but the only thing we can fix is ourselves. That and VOTE.

ok, nuffsed.

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[info]nancylebov
2005-12-07 04:40 pm UTC (link)
I'm just going to throw in one more category of people--those who inherit enough money that they don't have to work so long as they maintain a middle class or lower lifestyle. I know several such people and I suspect there are quite a lot more. Some of them work for money, some don't.

They're inconspicuous--I've never seen them mentioned in or out of fiction.

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