get a grip, sparkleson! ([info]musesfool) wrote,
@ 2003-07-07 16:42:00
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Current mood: cranky
Current music:I Want You to Want Me - Cheap Trick

discussing AS Byatt's Op-Ed piece...
So Dot asked us what we thought about A.S. Byatt's piece on Harry Potter in today's Times</b></a>.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I think she's full of shit, but what do I know? (And Possession is one of my favorite books, btw, so I like Byatt.)

Anyhow, this is cobbled together from some emails Dot and I exchanged today on the subject, with her comments edited out, since I don't have her permission to share them.

I don't think HP stands with Lewis or L'Engle or LeGuin (to go with an "L" theme) as excellent literary writing, but I find the world itself very interesting and satisfying.

Yeah, it's pastiche, but it's well-done pastiche. Yes, there are writing issues, but the writing has gotten stronger in each book (though she still needs a firm editor, and I don't think she's got one), but I think it's also popular for 'literary' writers to bash popular works. And nothing is more popular than HP right now, you know? It's more *story* than style, and storytelling is never as respected by writers as literary thingies are. (And yes, that's the sound of my college professors groaning in unison as all litcrit jargon flees my tired brain.)

As for Dark Is Rising, well, I tried it (as an adult) and found it twee and unreadable, whereas my 'adult' brain slipped easily and whole-heartedly into Harry Potter's world on first reading. *shrug* The characters may be stereotypes (though that's changed, I think over the course of the books), but they're quite lovable.

And yes, again, literary comfort food, at least up until Cedric buys it in GoF. I think that was the turning point, and there’s no *way* you can tell me OotP is a comforting book. I think Rowling has done well to capture the adolescent anger at the whole “I’m living in a world I didn’t make” thing (ASSCAPS aside. see note about strong editing), as well as the distrust of authority (and Harry *ought* to distrust authority, considering how it’s treated him throughout his life, up to and including Dumbledore, who may claim to love him but is using him nonetheless, and worse, using the tragedy in his life to mold him into a weapon against Voldemort).

Yeah, the romance is a little juvenile, but gah. I remember my first kiss and my reactions to it and I didn’t think she was far off. Yes, I wanted to kick Cho (or put her in therapy), but Harry’s no prize (hello? 15yo boy), and he, like Buffy, has got a lot more important things going on than appeasing a girlfriend or catering to her.

Rowling has finally produced some interesting female characters (other than Hermione), which was my one major knock against her previously. But we had two really nasty female villains *plus* Luna, Ginny, Cho, Molly Weasley, Tonks and McGonagall in addition to Hermione (not to mention Lily’s brilliant moment) as opposed to Lavender and Parvati giggling all the time in previous books, and Hermione discounting her contributions (and I can’t emphasize enough how *much* her little speech in book 1 about how she’s just “books and learning” while Harry is bravery and nobility pisses me off. If Harry spent more time listening to Hermione and less time running around like a testosterone-fueled brat [like (god)father like son? *g*), the big tragedy of OotP could have been averted. That's not to say I wouldn't like to see Hermione be flat-out wrong sometimes, 'cause I would.).

And that was a tangent I didn’t mean to go off on. *g*

On the topic of the numinous:
Well, there *is* a sense of wonder early on, when Harry first finds out he's a wizard.

But part of what I like about it is how lived in the magic feels. Yes, it's not as ... awesome (in its original meaning, not its surfer dude devolution) as the magic in say, Earthsea (which is lived in but completely *foreign*) but I don't think it's *meant* to be.

It's more like a Star Wars or Buffy kind of magic. Cool, but you could see it being possible in our world.

As for there being no heavy issues or themes presented in the books, well, I think she's wrong, and if she's read PoA, GoF or OotP, she obviously hasn't done so very closely, because the books are teeming with issues, simplistic at first, but still - the issues are there.

Shall I list them? I shall:

1. racism (Muggles. Mudbloods. Half-breeds. Werewolves. A whole enslaved race of elves and a race of goblins who are clearly analogous on some level to medieval Jews - allowed to handle all the money but not allowed any true freedoms.)

2. classism/elitism (OotP is in particular a pointed criticism of the aristocracy. And even the 'really' poor families (i.e., the Weasleys) own their own home and seem to have enough food/enough money for education. The only truly poor person so far is Remus. Harry is only poor in Muggle money terms.)

3. fascism (Umbridge and her inquisition)

4. appeasement of evil (Fudge=Chamberlain)

5. consumerism/yuppie materialism (the Dursleys)

6. governmental corruption and inertia

7. police brutality/habeas corpus/death penalty (Sirius's whole story line, up to and including the dementors - what kind of government uses such methods of incarceration or allows the use of deadly force without question, as Barty Crouch allowed the Aurors? How was Sirius imprisoned without a trial?)

8. power/authority and its uses and abuses (from Lupin's inability to stop Sirius and James from their nasty bullying to Snape's behavior as a teacher toward his students to Dumbledore's manipulations of children to gain his ends to Lucius Malfoy's buying up the government and Umbridge's takeover of the school and the teachers' rebellion against her, and Harry's own struggles with authority and who to believe and who has rightful authority and who doesn't? to Voldemort seeking power over death to the way wizards without second thought cast memory charms on Muggles left and right...)

9. the bankruptcy of celebrity culture (not only Harry's fame but Lockhart's)

10. free press v. goverment-controlled press

And all of that's without even touching on issues of adolescence and growing up and school stuff (though of course, some of that is included in the above), *or* dealing with grief and tragedy as a youngster.

These threads are all *there*, though admittedly, Rowling may not be doing a great job with all of them, and some of them are drawn rather simplistically. I may choose not to read any of that stuff into it, and just think they're cracking good stories. Otoh, I'm sure if I were so inclined (which, anyone who's read this LJ for any length of time knows I'm not, lit degree aside), I could do a Marxist (or some other 'ist') reading of the books and find textual support.

So while I don't think the books are great literature* (kid or adult), per se, I don't think they're easily dismissable as prepackaged and toothless.

To sum up, people are gonna knock it, but I like it regardless, and I think it keeps getting better.

*At some later date I may go into what *I* think *is* great literature, but to put it simply for now, the writing ought to match the subject matter in depth and grace, and Rowling's writing doesn't. She's a good storyteller, but her writing is ... workmanlike at best, though I envy her facility with action scenes.

Edited to add Tonks to the roster of cool female characters, just for [info]harriet_spy. *g*



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[info]harriet_spy
2003-07-07 02:25 pm UTC (link)
Hey! What about Tonks! Don't leave off Tonks from the female-characters list! I heart Tonks!!!

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[info]musesfool
2003-07-07 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Whoops!

Sorry 'bout that. *g*

Tonks didn't make much of an impression on me. I'm all about loving loony Luna. And McGonagall, of course. I wanna be her when I grow up.

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[info]ide_cyan
2003-07-07 02:53 pm UTC (link)
Not to put too fine a point on it, I think she's full of shit, but what do I know?

You're not alone. Jessa Crispin, of Bookslut.com, said the exact same thing.

So while I don't think the books are great literature* (kid or adult), per se, I don't think they're easily dismissable as prepackaged and toothless.

I'd like to quote, at length, from Nicola Griffith regarding this point...
There's an implied assumption that you can divide fiction into two neat piles, one labeled "Good quality, unpopular, unsensational" and the other "Bad quality, popular, sensational." When did provoking the senses become a bad thing? As Pauline Kael said, "If art isn't entertainment, then what is it? Punishment?" The notion of binarism in art is bizarre--about as meaningful as believing race can be split cleanly into black and white, sexuality into gay or straight, or behavior into right or wrong.

However, instead of going on a rant, I'll behave and say only that one of my aims (and joys) when I write is to unite traditions, conventions and styles usually seen as opposites: literary and genre, urban and pastoral, noir and confessional, hard-boiled and lyrical.

I don't like fiction that does only one thing, that spends its time, to quote Kael again, this time on Rain Man, "humping one note on a piano for two hours and eleven minutes." I don't like fiction that is mean-spirited. I don't like fiction that is safe. Many apparently risky novels are really manifestations of the writer desperately trying to hide herself. Often, if I read that a work is "daring" or a "tour-de-force" it turns out to be the creation of a frightened writer twiddling away with form or structure in order to avoid revealing anything of herself in the story. I like writers who don't hide and don't apologize.

One of my favorite quotes comes from Federico Garcia Lorca: "Senza duende, nada." Without passion (risk, heart, truth), nothing. That, for me, is the kernel of a good fiction. I would much rather read a book with the occasional clumsy sentence but a burning passion and an engaging story (plot is neither here nor there, but I'd prefer it didn't insult my intelligence) than a seamless, beautifully constructed novel with an empty heart. I don't think it makes sense to talk about fiction in terms of Real Life, but if I had to, then I'd say it should be larger than life, rather than smaller. I like fiction that gives me a variety of context: social, personal, historical, psychological, cultural, intellectual, emotional and so on. For that, it has to be able to change scale, switch focus from the interior to the exterior. I like books where Stuff Happens and Things Have Consequence on as many levels as possible. And then I want to be able to draw my own conclusions from the characters' insights. A novel doesn't have to have everything but it does have to have a certain balance, and it must have some joy, if only a drop. Joy is the point.*
...because I agree with her.

Also, I loved the improvements to the rosted of female characters in OotP too. Much more satisfactory now.

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[info]musesfool
2003-07-07 08:41 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I certainly agree that art ought to be entertaining and enjoyable, and that heart trumps technical excellence without emotional content every time.

I just happen to think the marriage of technical excellence *and* heart is what elevates some writing to the realm of truly great.

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[info]ide_cyan
2003-07-07 08:54 pm UTC (link)
(roster, dammit. stupid typos.)

I just happen to think the marriage of technical excellence *and* heart is what elevates some writing to the realm of truly great.

*plugs Nicola Griffith again*

;-)

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[info]musesfool
2003-07-08 07:29 am UTC (link)
(roster, dammit. stupid typos.)

Eh, no worries. I knew what you meant.

And thanks for the rec. *g*

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[info]maidenjedi
2003-07-07 03:19 pm UTC (link)
First off, Fudge=Chamberlain. !!! I thought I was the only person who saw this parallel. It leapt off the pages at me in the end of GoF.

Secondly, bravo. Byatt's one to talk, incidentally - her books aren't exactly accessible, and for all that I love Possession, I'm the first to admit that it's a difficult, weighed-down read. Harry Potter might not be "literature", it might have writing issues, etc., but in an age when storytelling is often slighted in favor of literary innovation, I don't think it's a bad thing.

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[info]musesfool
2003-07-08 07:33 am UTC (link)
First off, Fudge=Chamberlain. !!! I thought I was the only person who saw this parallel. It leapt off the pages at me in the end of GoF.

Oh, we've got this whole HP-WWII analogy worked out, though no one has yet come up with a good FDR-analog.

Secondly, bravo. Byatt's one to talk, incidentally - her books aren't exactly accessible, and for all that I love Possession, I'm the first to admit that it's a difficult, weighed-down read. Harry Potter might not be "literature", it might have writing issues, etc., but in an age when storytelling is often slighted in favor of literary innovation, I don't think it's a bad thing.

Oh, I agree. I think the preference for fancy narrative gimmicks is what gets a lot of 'literary' writers into trouble - they're so interested in the dog-and-pony show of being innovative that they forget that the aim of writing is to *communicate* and to move the reader.

I don't mind some measure of difficulty, and I didn't find Byatt inaccessible, per se, though she's not an easy read. I just really dislike the idea that something must be bad because it's popular, and that something is good quality only when it's difficult.

You shouldn't need a spoonful of sugar to get your reading done. *G*

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[info]marag
2003-07-07 04:13 pm UTC (link)
In a quick skim through Byatt's piece, I find exactly one thing I agree with: that Terry Pratchett is underappreciated.

Good heavens, how dare the HP books be escapism? What are we thinking, allowing our children to read books that feature the kind of fantasy they've probably thought of in their own heads? How dare Rowling write her child characters as if they were ::gasp:: children?

::grumble:: Psychoanalytic rubbish.

Vic, I agree with you, the HP books are not great literature. But not every book has to be great literature! There's nothing wrong with having some fun following interesting characters through a world that may not be entirely shiny and new. Maybe I just never grew up, but I find the familiarity comforting myself.

I'm usually the first in line to point out that Diana Wynne Jones does it all vastly better, but that won't stop me from enjoying the HP books for a single instant. Nyah.

And I repeat my contention that any author who can get millions of kids to stay up all night to read a 900 page book is okay with me.

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[info]jerel
2003-07-08 05:53 am UTC (link)
love the icon.

And I'll just add a big ditto here. I was kicked out of my master's program because I was more interested in storytelling than "literature."

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[info]marag
2003-07-08 04:59 pm UTC (link)
Thanks. I :heart: my Indy icon. And you cite the reason I wasn't an English major. They'd have made me read "literature" instead of studying the stuff that interested me. ::shudders::

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[info]musesfool
2003-07-08 07:35 am UTC (link)
Vic, I agree with you, the HP books are not great literature. But not every book has to be great literature! There's nothing wrong with having some fun following interesting characters through a world that may not be entirely shiny and new. Maybe I just never grew up, but I find the familiarity comforting myself.

Oh, I agree that not everything has to be great literature. I would even go so far as to say that not only great literature is of value - as long as kids are reading, I'm okay with that.

I think Byatt's essay smacks of literary snobbery at its worst and the idea that 'good cannot equal popular' or 'good must equal inaccessible/difficult' is such a fallacy.

Personally, I blame James Joyce.

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[info]amandajane5
2003-07-07 07:50 pm UTC (link)
Wow, the first thing that struck me about Byatt's piece is that she is crazy mad jealous. Really. She's clearly only skimmed the actual books, given her thin grasp of the actual plotlines, and anyone who claims that Susan Cooper deserves vast superiority just needs a head check. I adore Susan Cooper, but I think her best novels are "Seaward" and "King of Shadows." And Diana Wynne Jones is marvelous, fantastic, and probably my favorite writer. But she's never managed to write an actual sequel - a story that lasts for more than one book. Rowling's obviously done that and done it well.

I don't know the author of the Times piece, although I seem to gather she's a writer. What I do know is that I adore and collect children's literature, and I too was reluctant to start the series, which was recommended to my by my grandmother. I picked it up in an airport while stuck because of the recommendation. But the recommendation was fantastic, as are the books. Did she really read OoTP? So many issues were raised, and she didn't seem to notice.

Anyway, I agree, full of shit.

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[info]musesfool
2003-07-08 07:46 am UTC (link)
Wow, the first thing that struck me about Byatt's piece is that she is crazy mad jealous.

Yeah, it definitely has that feel to it, that, "Well, *my* book is better even if it didn't sell three trillion copies, and the hoi polloi just have no undertanding of what real writing is".

Bleh.

She's clearly only skimmed the actual books, given her thin grasp of the actual plotlines

Yeah, I can't say she impressed me with her understanding of even the basic facts of the books in this essay.

And Diana Wynne Jones is marvelous, fantastic, and probably my favorite writer. But she's never managed to write an actual sequel - a story that lasts for more than one book.

I've yet to finish a DWJ book, but that could just be me. Fantasy is not my first choice of reading material.

Did she really read OoTP? So many issues were raised, and she didn't seem to notice.

Exactly. I think you'd have to be a moron to have missed the issues in GoF and OotP especially. I mean, I can see kids not getting the analogies, but any reasonably well-read adult ought to come away with some understanding that Rowling is tackling more than just 'a boy's life', though how well she's doing it is, of course, up for debate.

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[info]fairy_tale_echo
2003-07-08 12:13 am UTC (link)
((applauds wildly)) This was a great defense and I agree with all of it. I think it's also obvious she's barely even skimmed the series since she gets so many big things wrong.

I also especially take offense to her contention that the reason adults like "childhood reading" is for comfort. Um, shut up. You don't know what the hell you're talking about. The last three years I worked as a YS librarian and even though I've returned to school now (so that I can return to working as, yeah, a YS librarian.) I still read up and keep current with as much as I can in the Children's/Young Adult literature scene. Here's a shocker: adults like reading these books, Potter and other Children/YA selections, because they're good. GASP! I know, who would have imagined it about something for children?

Attack Of The Pretentious British Novelists! I sorta figured this was coming. I just wish they'd admit they don't like Harry Potter and not try to make it about "latency" and "regression" and "derivative motifs" and every other five dollar word they can manage. I also hate the implication that I should be reading BookA by Author1 instead of Potter. You assume, dear, that I haven't already, or that I cannot enjoy anything other than Potter. But really, I don't count this as quite as pretentious and pseudo-intellectual enough: I mean she does get five points for invoking Diana Wynne Jones (do you think, if asked of the top of her head, she could name ONE book by her?) and an extra five for throwing out Susan Cooper's name. (so, tell me, A.S. do you think Cooper or Alexander in the Pyrdain Chronicles did a better job integrating Welsh mythology in the larger story?) Maybe I'll even give her a few bonus points for Le Guin. But forgetting to emptily name check Pullman and His Dark Materials? Naughty, naughty! Ahh, A.S. are you jealous that Pullman won the Whitbread and you never have? How dare he! He only wrote a book for children. Or should I say...a childish adult like me?

This was a great post, Victoria. Thanks so much! I'm off to my LJ to rant further.

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[info]musesfool
2003-07-08 07:54 am UTC (link)
This was a great defense and I agree with all of it. I think it's also obvious she's barely even skimmed the series since she gets so many big things wrong.

::blushes::

Thanks.

I also especially take offense to her contention that the reason adults like "childhood reading" is for comfort. Um, shut up. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Yes, because Narnia and Alice and Huck Finn and The Outsiders and Bridge to Terebithia are *so* *comforting*.

::rolls eyes::

I just wish they'd admit they don't like Harry Potter and not try to make it about "latency" and "regression" and "derivative motifs" and every other five dollar word they can manage. I also hate the implication that I should be reading BookA by Author1 instead of Potter. You assume, dear, that I haven't already, or that I cannot enjoy anything other than Potter.

Yes, this binary thinking is quite ridiculous, really. I mean, I can't like *both* Byatt and Rowling, Rushdie and King? WTF?

(so, tell me, A.S. do you think Cooper or Alexander in the Pyrdain Chronicles did a better job integrating Welsh mythology in the larger story?)

Ooh, Prydain Chronicles... I *adore* those books, especially Taran Wanderer - so sad. And hey, Taran wanted to be a ... potter.

Huh.

Anyhow, I didn't make it through the first Dark Is Rising book, so I can't comment on those, but yes, I can't believe I forgot Lloyd Alexander. *g*

This was a great post, Victoria. Thanks so much! I'm off to my LJ to rant further.

*g*

I'm always happy to provide rancor. *g*

Rant on.

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[info]coconutswirl
2003-07-08 05:35 am UTC (link)
I think it is unfair to label Byatt as a Pretentious Writer just because she writes such a mish-mash as the potter piece. In my book, Byatt is one of the best writers alive today no matter what language or topic. However, the Potter piece just reeks of a quick, lazy write-up on a subject she has no real interest in writing about, but feels (prolly for financial reasons) forced to write about.

What I just want to know is how it all relates to Byatt's own interest in and use of fairy tales? Hmmm..? That is the real question.

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[info]musesfool
2003-07-08 07:37 am UTC (link)
Oh, I like Byatt. I think she's a fine writer.

I also think the essay smacks of literary snobbery and the worst sort of jealousy ("HP has sold millions so it must not be any good. My books are appreciated by a select few intelligent readers").

What I just want to know is how it all relates to Byatt's own interest in and use of fairy tales? Hmmm..? That is the real question.

Yes, that *is* a good question. Didn't Byatt write a book of short stories using fairytale tropes?

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[info]coconutswirl
2003-07-09 05:31 am UTC (link)
Didn't Byatt write a book of short stories using fairytale tropes?

Oh, she uses fairy-tales and story-telling in most of her books. From the top of my head:

Possession: Christabel wrote fairy-tales (one included), plus folkore used in poems

The Djin In the Nightingale's Eye: collection of contemporary fairy-tales

A Whistling Woman: A Tolkien-esque oral story-telling becomes a best-selling YA/Adult book

Angels & Insects: The first of the two short short stories (Mondo Sistro?) features a long and elaborate fairy-tale

The Biographer's Tale: Pervasive use of Nordic folkore

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[info]fairy_tale_echo
2003-07-08 10:52 am UTC (link)
Oh, I didn't mean that I especially dislike Byatt as an author, I mean, I'm human, I liked Possession too, but that's the only thing by her I've ever been able to truly get lost in.

I just found the criticism to be pretentious. I think she showed a real lack of the storyline in Potter and I hate, hate, hate it when they toss around other children's/young adult authors as if that somehow makes their case. I find that to be pretentious, be it in criticism for adults or children or monkey food. It always smacks of: "Well, darling, *I* read _______ and it was quite a bit better than _______!" That's your taste and your opinion and while you, as a reader, are entitled to it, never makes for the kind of critique that is very useful or informative.

Hope that clears things up a little :)

((and WORD to Victoria for mentioning the snobbery...yeah, that was also a huge vibe of the criticsm for me.))

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