28 July 2005 @ 01:04 pm
When is fanfiction not fanfiction?  
When is Fanfiction not Fanfiction?

I actually meant to post this a while back, but flat forgot. The above title is a question that came up as a tangential point in some previous comments (not all in my journal), and one thing led to another ...

At what point does fanfic cease to be fanfic?

Obviously, the answer to that depends a whole hell of a lot on how one defines "fanfic," itself. And by that, I don't necessarily mean versus "profic." Profic is fiction for which one's been paid, including media tie-ins. A media tie-in amounts to 'professional fanfic,' the difference being that the story must meet criteria submitted by the owning entity (studio, person, whatever). (There is often a list of things one can't do in a media tie-in, as part of the contract. And in fact, some tie-in authors aren't fans of the source material, may never even have seen/read the source material before accepting the contract. Media tie-ins simply sell well and authors (and their agents) know that.)

But what, exactly, IS fanfic? Part of the problem with professional writers condemning fanfic is that they often display a fairly limited view of it. Yet the problem of defining fanfic is that people write it for a variety of reasons, which obviously impacts what we think it IS -- and where/when we think a story has stopped being fanfic to become something else. So I'm kinda curious what others think on this matter.

For myself, I believe I'd define fanfic as 'Stories that utilize the characters and/or world of another creator.' That's the simplest, broadest definition. Aside from more common fanfic types, this definition also allows fanfic that may be set in a fandom world, but employs all original characters. It allows fanfic that may employ recognizable characters, but not set in the world we expect them to inhabit (whether as a crossover or an elseworlds). It also allows for AU (alternate universes -- stories that twist canon in some notable way), and even fanfic that doesn't necessarily honor the source material, but may be highly critical of it (whether or not one thinks that's polite is quite apart from whether it would qualify as "fanfic"). Last, it allows for the insertion of one genre type into another. That is, the fanfic genre may not reflect the genre of the source material -- one writes a murder mystery set in the world of an SF series. The story 'behaves' like a mystery, utilizing those genre conventions, not the conventions of SF. Genre crossing can be very fruitful for creativity, although it can also lead to problems when readers expect X and get Y instead, and wind up irked. (This is why publishing houses are a bit leery of genre-straddlers; when they work, they're often wildly successful, but when they flop, they flop.) Probably the most common genre cross in fanfic is genre Romance conventions imported into fandoms of other genre types.

In any case, my above definition, broad as it is, does have some parameters. The story must employ the fictional world and/or recognizable characters (usually both, but particularly the characters). If the characters aren't recognizably themselves, that's where I'd draw the line and say, "That's not fanfic." It's original fiction with familiar names and faces. Obviously, the one writing would disagree. (g) That may be because her understanding of the characters differ -- but it may also be because her definitions of fanfic differ. They may not feel constrained to keep the characters "in character."

But even that phrase "in character" is at least part of the equation, enit? What's "in character" for me may not be "in character" for you. That said, I think there are agreed-upon characterizations that most fans would recognize as "so-and-so" -- even allowing for individual divergence. And the corollary to that assumption is that a fan writer can push a character too far outside the bounds so that s/he is no longer that character. Characterization may be somewhat individual, but it's not "anything goes." Yet because that line of characterization IS so blurred, fans may differ (even differ radically) in what they're willing to accept.

Using a personal example, I've had readers write to me about Special to remark how very much Scott Summers still seemed to be Scott Summers, regardless of the shocking background I gave him there. In fact, part of the original challenge of that series WAS to transform him from such a radical background into the canon character we know as Cyclops (hence the subtitle 'the Genesis of Cyclops'). But certainly, some readers did find the background too far out there to buy, and he wasn't Cyclops to them (and they let me know it (g)). For those readers, my little experiment failed. And I think some of that assessment also comes down to definitions.

For me, characterization is about the essentials of personality, rather than all the details of a character's background. Others would include background details to a greater degree. For them, Scott as an ex-hustler is not Scott because that's not his canon history and/or their perception of the character wouldn't allow him to have done such a thing. This argument isn't limited to fanfic, of course. Consider the very different opinions of how Grant Morrison handled Scott Summers during his run on New X-Men. I have people on my Flist who very much liked Morrison's handling, and others who thought he twisted the character out of recognition. I'm closer to the latter than the former, but I acknowledge that why I think so has a lot to do with my perceptions of the character . . . just as other readers can't imagine a hustler-Scott, even as a desperate teen.

So by no means is "in character" a cut-and-dried class of criteria, and I recognize that.

I also recognize that "out of character" twists can be a simple function of bad writing. The 14-year-old X-Men Evolution fan writing a story on fanfic.net, who has Charles Xavier speak like a teenager, not a past-middle-age academic, is writing him that way because she's young, and has no ear yet for dialogue. All her characters sound the same ... just like her. That's an extreme example, but many cases of bad and/or inconsistent characterization are just a function of youth and/or lack of writing ability.

But that's not the only reason. There are other reasons. A second cause for character bending stems from a clash of genre conventions. I already mentioned above that the fanfic genre may not be the same as that of the source material. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but if the conventions of one cause serious permutations of the source material -- including characterization -- we can wind up with a mess (at least to my mind).

The most common culprit here, I think, is the imposition of Romance convention on non-Romance source material. Romance has a set of plot/character expectations (called 'conventions') that are more or less strictly followed by professional writers of the genre -- and failure to follow them can result in not getting published, at least, not in Romance. In fanfic, if one attempts to impose those conventions on characters who would not behave in those ways, the end result is the inevitable distortion of the characters. The ones I'm probably most familiar with seeing this done to were Mulder and Scully from the X-Files. Mulder is not a Romance Hero, and Scully is not a Romance Heroine, and trying to turn them into such twists their personalities until they're no longer themselves -- at least, in my opinion. This applies, by the way, to slash just as much as to het couples.

I should add that Romance is something very specific, and a story with romance (or sex) in it isn't necessarily a Romance -- hence my use of the capital to denote the publishing genre. Also, there are some fandoms in which Romance conventions can be successfully employed -- Lois and Clark, for instance. The show itself employed them. Problems only occur when crossing genres so warps the characters that it ceases to work, and Romance, while probably the most common example, isn't the only one. If one wishes to write a thriller in which a gentle character becomes a maniacal killer, that won't fly, either, for the same reasons.

Finally, there's at least one other reason I think characters are not always recognizable -- and it has nothing to do with writing ability or genre conventions. I've read stories that were quite well done that nonetheless had characters acting in ways I thought out of character. Some of these stories were even penned by professionals (e.g., actual writers of the source material -- comics, TV episodes, etc.). (g) That doesn't stem from an inability to write, but from an inability to write a certain type of story.

To my mind, the essential requirement of fanfiction is to be able to borrow someone else's characters and world and maintain them. I think any writer of any sophistication will add unique elements to the characters s/he borrows. Thus, fanfic authors can do things like the "My ___" meme wherein we discussed our version of a canon character -- and each description was a bit different from someone else's. Personally, I find those things fascinating, how so many different people can come up with unique and -- to my mind -- absolutely valid readings of the same character. But there are cases where I think the author has simply changed the character too much, and it's no longer that character.

The ability to do "the chameleon thing" is not a skill every writer has, even every good writer -- and that includes a handful of good authors in fanfic. They may write well-honed stories, but I always feel as if I'm reading their characters rather than canon characters that they've fleshed out. Again, some of this is character perception. As noted above, not everyone likes or accepts my view of Scott (or Jean, or Ororo ...), and some of them are probably reading this journal. ;> Just as a good writer of SF may be a lousy writer of mysteries or mainstream, likewise being a good writer doesn't necessarily mean one will be a good fanfic writer.

So my own answer to the "When is fanfic not fanfic?" question boils down to the ability to portray familiar characters (and worlds) in a recognizable fashion -- to make a world come alive that is not entirely of one's own creation.

Now, I ask the rest of you -- when do you think fanfic has stopped being fanfic?
 
 
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Redhawk[info]redhawk on July 28th, 2005 06:18 pm (UTC)
Interesting Thoughts...
And while I don't remember the name of it, Harlequin actually does have an imprint in the SpecFiction area (SF).

An entire imprint for the Laura K Hamiltons and her ilk of the world. Genre-crossovers.

Redhawk

Minisinoo: faith (Jeff)[info]minisinoo on July 28th, 2005 06:22 pm (UTC)
Re: Interesting Thoughts...
Harlequin actually does have an imprint in the SpecFiction area (SF).

Yes, they do. And for a reverse example: Catharine Asaro. She writes Romance Hard SF, which sounds like a VERY strange mix, but she can make it work ... in part because Catherine is also a professor of physics. (g) The stuff she writes about involve theories in her own academic publications. But she's a fan of Romance, and so she puts the two together. Drives (some of) the male hard SF writers nuts. LOL!

Genre crossovers sometimes work really WELL. I'm rather fond of them, actually -- and one could certainly say that what I do in fanfic is genre mixing, since most of the conventions I employ are those of mainstream imported into a fandom based on SF source material (space opera, in particular). But genre crosses do introduce a very particular set of problems, and writing them means one has to be very aware of the potential pitfalls. Even then, the straddler may not work.
Redhawk[info]redhawk on July 28th, 2005 06:37 pm (UTC)
I keep hearing good things about Asaro...
Never managed to pick up any of her stuff.

And romance + hard SF sounds like it'd be right up my alley!

How hard's the SF, and how many bodices were ripped in the romance end of things?

There's a long and honorable tradition of academics writing SF. Bob Heinlein, Asimov, Ben Bova, Vernor Vinge...

Redhawk

Minisinoo: comics Jean X[info]minisinoo on July 28th, 2005 06:52 pm (UTC)
Re: I keep hearing good things about Asaro...
No bodices ripped, that I recall. Mostly, she uses the "love at first sight" and "meant for each other" type of conventions, plus the stories always begin with the meeting of Hero and Heroine (although they don't necessarily end with a marriage or similar).

The Hard SF is quite serious stuff with theories of actual warp travel, etc. Catherine actually works on that stuff, and the science in it pretty much works, at least at a purely theoretical level. You may or may not like her style. I'm not, myself, a great fan of Romance, so sometimes the Romance conventions are a bit too thick for my taste -- same as in the work of Judy Tarr, who's a fantastic writer of historical fantasy (the history is real). It's just that the romance/women's fiction overtones, and the Perky Female Heroine, are sometimes more than I can handle. (g) Both are very good writers, though, and I'd recommend them to folks who are fond of either sub-genre + Romance. (The Romance in both isn't as silly as it can sometimes get, in the genre.)
Redhawk[info]redhawk on July 28th, 2005 06:56 pm (UTC)
Re: I keep hearing good things about Asaro...
I handled the romance angles in Guy Kay just fine, I think I can hack Asaro.

Hrm.

Got some new names of people to read. That's always useful.

Redhawk

PS - It's going to be a good winter for books. Jordan and Martin both have novels coming out. :)
Katt[info]xenokattz on July 30th, 2005 03:34 am (UTC)
Re: Interesting Thoughts...
Mental note to pick up some of Catharine Asaro's books. Thanks.
Wyzeguy[info]wyzeguy on July 28th, 2005 07:11 pm (UTC)
I like your broad definition of fanfic, Min, as it covers quite a bit and excludes a few notable ill-fits. I've often wondered just what the boundaries are, because sometimes they blur.

For instance, the makers of the popular MMORPG "City of Heroes" openly encourage fanfiction and other fanworks. They're not shy about requesting submissions from players and fans to fill content on their website and at the back of their monthly tie-in comic book. Yet these fanfic submissions often involve characters created by the players/writers for the game, based in the game's world and utilizing the canon-made characters (NPCs like Statesman, Manticore, et. al) often slightly or not at all. So by most definitions of fanfiction, CoH fanfic wouldn't be fanfic because the source creators welcome it, canon characters are scarce (that I've seen), and the game's world and its general trappings are the only noticeable carryovers. I mean, it's not often one sees a fandom like that (unless one looks in roleplaying fandoms in general) ... but by your definition, it's still fanfiction.

Mileage can vary, obviously, and it's hard to people to agree on what constitutes fanfiction and what doesn't ... especially when the standards are based more on fandom group politics/dynamics.

But my idea of where it stops being fanfic? It's when the writer's opinions are louder than the story itself, to the point that the story is based entirely on the writer's ego. Example: fanfics with a title to the effect of, "What SHOULD Have Happened in [Insert Name of Canon Episode/Issue Here]" How does the fanfic writer get to judge that? Unless he/she had been the original creator of the storyline before it was derailed by outside interference, a fanfic writer can't determine what's SUPPOSED to happen in the canon itself. Especially when the resulting fan story veers the story and characters off into a direction that suits the writer's whims but not the story itself.

Another example (somewhat similar): hatefic. "I HATE this character, so I'm going to write a story that abuses him/her and/or exposes the character for what he/she is!" Okay, so you're (general "you") not a fan of that character. I get that. But what I can't figure out is how the character you wrote in the fanfic is supposed to resemble the original. You've written a bad caricature by focusing exclusively on the negative traits, and the result mirrors the original in much the same way broken funhouse mirrors compliment the original figure. Worse, your reason for writing it is usually because the character you hate is romantically linked to a character you like, so you turn the one you like into a caricature -- a positive one, but a caricature nonetheless.

That probably sounded overly ranty, but I've encountered a lot of fanfiction like that, and not all of them on FF.Net, either.
Minisinoo: comics Jean X[info]minisinoo on July 29th, 2005 03:35 am (UTC)
Yeah, the character assassination is just another kind of character warping; I'm glad you mentioned it. It really annoys me, so I mostly avoid it. It annoys me even with character I don't, myself, like much, because it's character distortion. I realize, that as with other kinks, it's just what some people want to write and read, but it's not anything *I* want to read.

As for the "It should have been ...!" Ugh. OTOH, I can sort of understand, as I'm currently having that reaction to X3! But more often, if something really tanks, in my estimation, I quit writing for it altogether (as with Ult X-Men; Millar finally just killed it for me).
DarkMark[info]darkmark on July 29th, 2005 04:06 am (UTC)
I don't know that I could agree with the assessment of "It should have been." Two of my faves of my own work are just that: "Kara and the Dreamsmith", which is the cornerstone of just about all my DCU work, and "Or Maybe the Story Ends Like This", which is a branch-of-time in which the Gen13 kids triumph and survive the disaster that killed them in Canon. The Powers That Be don't always get things right...witness the disasters that have befallen Spider-Man in recent decades, and how they've had to retcon just about *every single one* of them...and if ficcers want to "revoke" such travesties, who can blame them?

BTW, I dunno, but you might find something of interest in my fanfic blog atg http://dark_mark.tripod.com/darkmarkfanficblog/ . Don't know if you're aware it existed. Now you are.
Wyzeguy[info]wyzeguy on July 29th, 2005 06:20 am (UTC)
Hey Mark,

I think this is definitely a dicey area, to be sure. I wasn't trying to claim that all fanfics that're "maybe it could have happened this way" are crimes against fanfiction; I personally got into fanfiction because it was a way to hit a rest button on some canon story or series that went astray for whatever reason. But I think "Maybe it Could Have Happened This Way...", from a semantics standpoint, is a different animal than, "What SHOULD Have Happened In..." The latter is an absolute statement that leaves no room for alternate interpretations (including the canon source) and humility; the former is an open statement that recognizes that a certain story event could end any number of ways, and different interpretations are valid. For instance, I've written movie treatments based on Fantastic Four, X-Men, and Spider-Man that were nothing like the actual movies that came out (mostly because both movies were in different stages of development and production), and more in line with the way I'd have done them if it had been up to me. But rather than title them something like, "The Way the [X-Men; Spider-Man; Fantastic Four] Movie SHOULD Have Been", I just called them something to the effect of, "My [X-Men; Spider-Man; Fantastic Four] Treatment" -- the idea being that this was my way of going about these films, but I'm not making judgments about whether my approach is better than anyone elses. That's for the readers to decided.

Though I suppose even that particular titling logic might seem egotistical to some people. As I said, it's a dicey area.

(My apologies if I'm butting in and your post was meant to respond to Min's post exclusively rather than mine or anyone else's; I just thought it might be a good idea to clarify.)
DarkMark[info]darkmark on July 29th, 2005 06:23 am (UTC)
Nope, you aren't butting in, and your comments are just fine. Myself, I'm glad to see a response! Thanks.

I agree that sometimes the "alternative" stuff can seem like arrogance. Then again, if the creators have screwed up so royally even we can do better, why shouldn't we be a little arrogant about it? ;-) And we all know of times when they have!
Minisinoo: amused scott drinking[info]minisinoo on July 29th, 2005 06:35 am (UTC)
Then again, if the creators have screwed up so royally even we can do better, why shouldn't we be a little arrogant about it? ;-) And we all know of times when they have!

Hee. True. But that's also typically opinion, and I try to recognize as much when I'm "re-writing." As I was saying to Wyze, right now, I'm feeling very cynical about X3 to the point that I'm hiding in Grail and have come to see it as "my" X3. Yet it wasn't actually begun as a "rebuke" to TPTB, and in all honesty, Grail wouldn't work that well as a superhero flick. I know that. It's best suited to the narrative, rather than the visual, medium, and when I started it, saw it only as an "alternative" instead of a substitute.

Nonetheless, I haven't made any secret of the fact I thought Mark Millar royally screwed up his OWN characters in his reboot, Ultimate X-men. Of course, I say that fully prepared to defend it, as well. His characters weren't consistent, and he has a terrible time satisfactorily concluding his own plots, rushing them through or using inexcusable deus ex machina to end things, and then moving on as if nothing previously happened, so his characters don't really grow (even while they also don't seem to remain predictable). Do I think I can do it better? Yes. But I also have to admit that Marvel isn't hiring me to do so. (G) And Millar is a fairly popular comics author, so obviously a number of writers like him. Could I command the same popularity? I don't know ... but I doubt it. (I don't think I'd be a very good comics author, honestly. I suspect most comics readers would find me wordy and overly complex.)
DarkMark[info]darkmark on July 29th, 2005 06:39 am (UTC)
Well, I've done the comics scripting bit for real, and I can tell you it ain't as easy as it looks. But I was improving and did have two series scheduled as regular scripter before the publisher went belly-up. Very few writers are good enough to do professional comics, and of those, only a handful are good enough to really please the fans. Most of them just do maintenance.

(puts soapbox away)
Minisinoo: dark phoenix[info]minisinoo on July 29th, 2005 06:45 am (UTC)
Very few writers are good enough to do professional comics, and of those, only a handful are good enough to really please the fans.

Well, I think in this case it's a matter of genre. I've been writing professionally a while. ;> But writing narrative is a bit different from writing comics -- or writing scripts or plays, for that matter. I can write narrative and write (stage) plays, things that depend on words and dialogue. I'm not as good with mediums that assume/depend on the art or scenery to carry a lot of the message.

So I think one has to keep in mind the medium, not just capability. A writer able to do one thing isn't necessarily able to do another. I'm not sure you meant to, but the quoted sentence seems to imply that those who can write for comics are "better" writers than any other kind. I'd be very careful about that, as it invites games of genre one-upmanship, and that invariably turns ugly.
DarkMark[info]darkmark on July 29th, 2005 06:48 am (UTC)
Nope, that isn't what I meant. I was more or less referring to the wannabe writers of comics out there...actually, I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote it. Sorry.
Minisinoo: cat at computer[info]minisinoo on July 29th, 2005 06:59 am (UTC)
No problem; I just wanted to clarify, as I think it's important. One of the reasons I haven't ever tried to pitch a comic is precisely because I don't think I'd be very good at that medium (and I'm honest enough to recognize it, flattering as it is when readers ask (g)).
The RCK[info]therck on July 29th, 2005 02:49 pm (UTC)
I can think of two types of stories that are generally classified as fanfic that I tend not to consider to be fanfic. The first is stories based on table top, LARP or other face to face role playing games that use stock settings but original characters. That is, I don't consider a story about somebody's Amber character, Vampire character, GURPS whatever character, etc., to be fan fiction. It's not precisely orginal fiction, either, but it's closer to being that than to being fan fiction. (Though it can move closer to fanfic if it leans heavily on npcs created by the game designers.)

The second is the radical AU. By this, I mean the sort of story that takes the characters' names, physical descriptions and a few behavior tags and pastes them over an otherwise original story. The characters don't have histories anything like what's in canon, nor do they have the same sorts of (dis)abilities or relationships with each other. An example-- Charles Xavier is a feudal lord in a medieval setting (lets add magic, too, since we'll be taking away powers). Jean is his orphaned niece who's betrothed to Magneto who's rebelled against the king. Scott is a handsome prisoner of war sent to Xavier by the king for safe keeping. Logan is the guard the king sent with Scott to make sure he doesn't escape. Add other characters in supporting roles as desired and let the hijinks and sex ensue.

It *is* possible to take the famliar characters and stick them into a completely alien setting without losing who they are. Moving Xavier's school to another time and place, for example, is quite possible, and working out the logical differences in how the characters would act and interact as, say, members of a ninja clan in medieval Japan could be fascinating. It would also, however, take a lot of work to get it right and not slip into silliness.
Minisinoo: Dr. Pepper S/J (Khaki)[info]minisinoo on July 29th, 2005 05:36 pm (UTC)
Oh, good additions. Yeah, I'd agree with you. I haven't come across the former, myself, but I think I'd say that's not fanfic. If anything, it's like that series of fantasy books by ... I'm losing their names. Anyway, back in the ... mid-80s?, I guess it was. A writer team of Margaret Weiss and the name I'm forgetting came out with a fantasy series that was more or less a narrative Dungeons and Dragons. I remember thinking it was rather odd, at the time -- but also hugely popular ... nonetheless, I sure wouldn't call it fanfic.

The other, yeah. (Did you actually read that story you summarized or make it up on the spot? LOL!) I think I'd just call that a BAD Elseworlds mixed with the "pushed the characters too far to be the characters" thing. (GGG) So yeah, not fanfic, either. And I agree, that a really good Elseworlds is hard to do because one has to maintain enough for the character to be themselves. I think I'd call Marvel's Age of Apocalypse somewhere between an AU and an Elseworlds.
The RCK[info]therck on July 29th, 2005 06:03 pm (UTC)
I made the fic up. I've seen similar stories in other fandoms, but I didn't want to cite any specifically, so I took a couple I remembered from Gundam Wing and X-Files as vague models and then stuck various X-Men characters into a bad romance plot. I thought it would make a better example if I used characters I was certain you knew well and that other folks passing through were likely to know. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if somebody, somewhere, had written something similar...

I'm a bit of a fannish dabbler. I'll read in just about any fandom, and I read all types of fics (though I tend to prefer different things in different fandoms). My knowledge of X-Men fanfic is *extremely* limited, mostly from links posted to [info]crack_van or to various sites listed on [info]recsrainbow. My knowledge of X-Men canon is rather broader (though still far from complete). I read my husband's back issues when we got married 12 years ago, and he continuted to buy them (and I to read them) for several years, stopping about five or six years ago (and then picking up again with some of the recent new titles).

The D&D based books you're referring to were by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman (I may be misspelling the author's names). I remember them being wildly popular with my gaming friends when I was in college, and my husband still has about a dozen of them somewhere. I found them frustrating to read (I forced myself through four of them so I could talk to my friends about them) because I couldn't engage with the characters.

What I was thinking of more in my first example was the tendency in many table top games (at least in my group of friends) to encourage players to write journals for their characters or to write stories about their characters' pasts and then share them with the game master and/or post them online. The process can add a great deal of depth to the role playing experience and gives the game master feedback about what the player thinks about events in the game and what the player enjoys. As with any amateur writing endeavor, the quality of what's produced varies wildly.
Minisinoo: earth[info]minisinoo on July 29th, 2005 06:24 pm (UTC)
Ah! I see what you mean, on the RPG stuff. And yeah, I wouldn't call that fanfic at all. In fact, I know some fantasy writers who more or less got their start after playing a lot of D&D or related, and then took characters off into their own worlds. The worlds were (too often) what sometimes gets labeled "blue bolz" fantasy -- not either very deep or very original ... fantasy cliches left and right -- but it was still *original* in that it wasn't based on anyone else's creative work. There's a difference between "stock characters/situations" and actual *fanfic*. I'd only call an RPG-based story 'fanfic' if the RPG itself was based on someone else's world in the first place. E.g., there are quite a lot of X-Men based RPGs, etc., and even if most of these are AUs in some respect, they're still based on that world, so fiction stemming from them is still fanfic (e.g., the story on my site "Playing House"). But like you, I wouldn't call a purely RPG-based story 'fanfic' in the usual sense.

(And on a tangential note, if you ever want info on X-Men fandom developments for any reason [especially movieverse], poke me. I've been in it almost 5 years now, and I know a bit about the comic fandom that was around before that, though I'm not genuinely one of the 'old timers.' On the comic side, there are a lot of folks who've been around longer than me. :) )
The RCK[info]therck on July 31st, 2005 01:31 am (UTC)
I wouldn't necessarily call stories based on a game set in someone else's world fanfic. Part of that is because just about every game system has an established world (sometimes more than one) as part of the package that would-be players and game masters buy. Not all of those worlds are borrowed from other media (though some, like Star Wars or Stargate or Amber, are). White Wolf's World of Darkness games, for example, have a very specific world with specific social structures and threats and so on, and they use a very specialized vocabulary that's instantly recognizable to anyone familiar with the setting. Most games use variant versions of the World of Darkness, however, because different game masters like different aspects of the setting or choose to discard things that they consider inconvenient or ridiculous (or add new elements in an effort to surprise players who've read all of the game supplements).

Some of my ambivalence about labeling game fics as fan fiction may well come from the fact that my first experience of game fics came while playing Amber. That game is based on Roger Zelazny's series of books by the same name, and writing about one's character is explicitly part of the game system (It's not required, but one can get extra character creation points for it). Generally, players create characters who are not from Zelazny's canon, but the rulebooks also talk about the possibility of playing versions of the characters Zelazny created. I feel that that's running into a very, very gray area. Each campaign might almost be considered a fanfic. Each piece of player writing derives from the campaign rather than from the original work, making it a fanfic of/for a fanfic. How many steps can one take from the original source before what one's writing isn't fan fiction anymore? (In some ways, I'd argue that game sourcebooks based on materials created in other media are more like official but non-canonical media tie-in novels than anything else. Which makes things even more tangled in my head...)

With regard to X-Men fandom, one thing I'd be very interested in is pointers toward essays explaining a little bit about the canon (either comics or movies). I maintain a fic rec page on my website that has grown surprising large, and I'm starting to try to have links to places that explain canon for some fandoms. It's a new idea for me, inspired in part by finding a good essay about current canon for the DC comics supers universe (the essay in question isn't perfect by any means, but it told me a lot I didn't know before). I've been thinking that there might be more people willing to try stories in different fandoms if I can offer a link or two to background information that might make the fandom feel more accessible to a newcomer. (I'm one of those weird people who's perfectly happy to read fics without knowing anything about the canonical source, and sometimes, I *rec* stories without having any clue about the canonical material.)
The RCK[info]therck on July 31st, 2005 01:34 am (UTC)
Oh, and one more point about game based writing-- Most of the authors don't consider what they're doing fan fiction. I think that may be the most important point for me, emotionally. Some of them are even people who find the idea of fan fiction creepy or weird, and I'm hesitant to stick a label on their work that might upset them.

Even if it is accurate.
Minisinoo: comics Jean X[info]minisinoo on July 31st, 2005 04:39 am (UTC)
Actually, [info]crack_van has two very good (but separate) entries on X-Men canon. [info]devildoll did the movieverse version, and [info]poilass did the comicverse version, which is that rare things -- both hysterically funny (without being overly sarcastic) as well as boils down DECADES of (sometimes contradictory) canon into a single entry. Given the complicated, convoluted and plain bizarre canon history of (especially) the older characters, that's quite a feat. (The Summers Family history alone is enough to give anyone a headache.)
Minisinoo[info]minisinoo on July 31st, 2005 04:40 am (UTC)
Oh, I forgot to specify, the links to those entries are on the main Crack Van page, on the lefthand side under "Active Fandoms."
The RCK[info]therck on August 2nd, 2005 12:46 am (UTC)
I'll have to check that summary. I really should have thought of the Crack Van as a source of informational essays. After all, I do follow the community, and I've seen some very good summaries there. I guess I just wasn't thinking. Thanks for reminding me.

And I remember bits of the Summers Family history... Confusing does not begin to describe it.
[info]tyrsis7 on July 29th, 2005 04:42 pm (UTC)
As usual, you tend to say most of what I think more concisely and better than I could word it myself.

The only thing I'd add is that I'm often drawn to fanfic when I feel the original writer has somehow "messed up" a character in my mind. There are so many times I've been following a series, whether tv, book, what-have-you, and suddenly one of the characters takes a turn that is SO incredibly out-of-character for him or her that it leaves me wanting to go to fanfic just to get it corrected.

One example that comes immediately to mind is the Star Wars universe (probably because that's where I've written the majority of my fanfic). There you have a whole series that has continued after the last movie and each book is written by a different author. Frankly sometimes a particular author just doesn't seem to "get" a character. Then I find myself wanting to rewrite their story or do some kind of spin-off to correct what I (and many other fans) see as a mistake.

So yes, as far as I'm concerned, the original authors may not always be the best judge of what's "in character" despite the fact that they're the ones who've been paid. LOL

I never really thought about trying to define fanfic until now. It's a little more complicated than I would've thought! :)
Minisinoo: woman underwater[info]minisinoo on July 29th, 2005 06:01 pm (UTC)
On "out of character" ... funny you should bring that up, as I originally had a paragraph or two in there about that with regard to original fiction, but cut it, because it seemed tangential to the actual discussion.

Okay, here's how I personally view that situation ... I prefer to apply "out of character" only when the character is "external" to the writer -- that is, not their own creation. So it applies to fanfic, to media tie-ins (which would include those Star Wars books), comics, TV shows and (arguably) historical fiction. Anything where the one writing the character didn't originate the character, but is trying to "capture" the essence of the character (with or without further character development).

Now when it comes to a creator handling his/her OWN characters, I wouldn't use "out of character," and that's probably splitting hairs, but I like to make the distinction, just to be completely clear. Instead, the word I use there is consistency of characterization, or sometimes believability. The reason I avoid the 'out of character' term in general (although, yeah, occasionally I'll throw it around) is because the creator is actively building that character and there is no "external" against which to measure characterization, per se ... although there IS previous behavior. That's why I use "consistent." If a creator has his/her character behaving in jerky fashion so that it seems unpredictable, based on what's previously been shown, then s/he has a problem with character consistency (and thus, characterization in general). That also, I've noticed, tends to generalize. That is, creators who're unable to maintain character consistency are often unable to do so for all or most of their characters. By contrast, a writer may write one or two characters "out of character" because (for whatever reason) they don't "grok" the character, while other characters may be just fine. This assumes a certain level of ability to write in the first place, btw. I'm thinking in terms of professionals writing media tie-ins, TV episodes, comic runs, whatever. Characterization is a skill that not ever writer, even every professional writer, has (Mark*cough*Millar). So the writer may be great at action, world-building, pacing, etc., but crappy at keeping his/her characters consistent.

Anyway, this is obviously my own terminology for things and I don't assume everyone else would use it, but since you brought it up and as I'd originally digressed in that direction in the original, I thought I'd throw it in.
The RCK[info]therck on July 31st, 2005 01:58 am (UTC)
Inconsistent characterization in source material actually bothers me more than consistent fanfic characterization that's not in keeping with canon does (and I react badly to inconsistent characterization in fanfics, too).

The example I'm most familiar with (and thus most annoyed by) is The Pretender. (This is the TV series that got me seriously exploring fan fiction, so it has a special place in my heart.) The plot of the series centers around a couple of characters who are both trying to find answers to questions about their past. They're in a more or less antagonistic relationship (one hunts the other, attempting to capture him), but they also have a very strong connection of shared history. The series lasted four seasons, but in my opinion, it fell apart because none of the important dynamics were allowed to change. The acting remained good, and the episodic writing was also good (as stand alones, I like several episodes from the last season quite a bit), but the characters weren't allowed to change how they interacted with each other or with the world around them. They never found any answers that weren't either snatched away before they could be fully revealed or discarded in later episodes in favor of heightened mystery.

This sort of thing frustrates me because it kills the story that could be and gives us instead a perpetual treadmill of this-stuff-will-sell-because-it's-as-close-as-we can-make-it-to-what-you-loved-about-last-season. There's only so long that a story can remain static, so many times that the same events can repeat without having any effect, before the readers or viewers stop caring and turn away.
Minisinoo: Comics Scott angry[info]minisinoo on July 31st, 2005 04:51 am (UTC)
That's a good example, though I'm not sure I'd call it "inconsistent" so much as "undeveloped" or "static"? It's inconsistent because it's TOO consistent. (g) The characters remain so MUCH the same, it's part of the problem. When I think inconsistent, I think of Scully's characterization in the final season (or two seasons) of the X-Files, where she went from being a a fairly strong-willed and competent character to being a weepy and unpredictable character -- basically when David Duchovny went to part time, then was out, and they brought in a new character, they "migrated" Scutlly's personality to be the "new Mulder" while the new character became the "new Scully." Which is interesting in theory, but I found the change too abrupt, and never quite bought it. Throughout the show, Scully had gone from a skeptical, depend-on-logic character to one more inclined to believe (like Mulder), but she was always the anchor on Mulder's fantasies. In the final seasons, that essential part of her character altered fundamentally, and she stopped being (to my mind) really recognizable. It was, indeed, character growth, but it both happened too fast, and seemed to go in a direction that I never entirely bought.

Another, better, example of the same was Mark Millar's handling of almost all his characters (except Charles Xavier) in his run on Ultimate X-Men. Although they were "canon" characters, he created them for the "reboot" of the new comic series, but the displayed both the tendency not to show any impact on their personalities from previous (highly traumatic events), and so were rather static, but also could be wildly inconsisent from one story arc to the next. E.g., at the outset, Scott was presented as a fairly mature, shrewd, competent team leader (books 1-6). But just one story arc later, we're told he's a D-student and he's shown as repeatedly gullible. Does Not Compute. (g) But Millar's focus was on action and political intrigue (as well as social commentary) ... not characterization (or, really, adequate resolution of his plot lines; he both used deus ex machina to the extreme and tended to leave dangling plot threads).
Katt[info]xenokattz on July 30th, 2005 03:52 am (UTC)
I've been stuck for a while on the description of fanfic as modern mythologies where the audience has taken a character/world into its collective consciousness to the point where thye (mwaning us) don't see the characters as belonging to a certain author/corporation but belonging to them.

I can ramble about legalities, history of folklore etc. but I really havne't gathered that much material for the thesis ;). In a nutshell, I consider even the most out-there AU's fanfics. Even those who *cough* vehemently state things like "it SHOULD have been this way" pass, IMHO, because there was something about that character/world that drew the writer in to begin with and made them a fan albeit one I'd like to have a long, loud discussion with.

To me, fanfics stop being fanfics when it's being written out of hate for a character/writer because that's the opposite of being a fan. The line's awfully thin with the vehemently-SHOULD-have group as well as the wildly AU but I try to think of it this way: does the writer still enjoy reading/watching the original source? If so, then they're still a fan and thus still write fanfiction.
Minisinoo: serious scott[info]minisinoo on July 30th, 2005 04:26 am (UTC)
Oh, that's an interesting take -- defining via the term "fan" in particular. I've often thought of fanfic as being folk art. You also mentioned stories that are written to trash a character as not being fanfiction, but for a different reason than Wyze did above (although I think at the root of it, it's the same basic reason -- it doesn't honor the characters and doesn't indicate 'fan' status -- although the definitions are slightly different).

How would you regard a story that uses the names and basic situations, but the characters are unrecognizable? Theoretically, those writers ARE fans, but I've often wondered what they're fans OF. What I mean is easiest to explain giving an example, and I'll pick movieverse Scott/Logan because I've seen several stories of just this distinctive type using that particular pairing, though I think this generalizes to a lot of different pairings (and this particular thing IS almost exclusively pairing related, although I've seen it in both het and slash). [In fact, I've seen kind of the same thing in comicverse, but using Logan and Remny, instead.]

Writer X pens a story in which Scott and Logan fall in love. Their names and the details of their mutations, etc., match the film, but they act completely (and I do mean completely) out of character. What I've seen most often is a weepy, weak "girlish" Scott, with little or no command ability, in need of Logan's protection and advice, while Logan is presented as the Big, Strong Man who takes care of him and professes seeing Scott now as his "permanent mate" (or variation of animal terminology). Yes, of course, it's the worst of Romance genre cliches (often poorly executed). (g) But before you ask, it's not necessarily written by young girls. I've come across at least two of these that I know were done by women in their mid-20s - 30s.

It seems to me the writer is actually a fan of Hugh Jackman (primarily) and James Marsden (secondarily), and Romance novels. I'm not really sure she's a fan of X-Men, except tangentially, and so I wonder if these stories wouldn't work better if the names and X-connections were ditched in favor of a gay Romance using Jackman and Marsden as visual templates? So I suppose the stories still qualify as "fan" fiction, but I'm not sure they're X-Men fanfiction, if that makes any sense? Given your definitions, how would you characterize that type of story?
Katt[info]xenokattz on July 30th, 2005 05:44 am (UTC)
First, let me shudder at that description of Scott & Logan.

*shudders*

Okay, over it now.

In those cases, I'd look again at the author's original materials. Are they reading more X-Men comics because of the movies or are they tracking down more of Jackman & Marsden's stuff? This might translate into what other fics they write: are they writing more X-Men fics or have they moved on to a couple Second Noah, Gossip, and The Notebook?

The former, I'd call a budding X-Men fanficcer. The latter, a James Marsden fan who doesn't want to write RPF.

Of course, if that's the only fic they ver write, I think I'll just smile, nod, and back away slooooooowly.
Minisinoo: Grail Scott (Pugui)[info]minisinoo on July 30th, 2005 06:27 am (UTC)
Those are good questions; I can't answer them in all cases. In one case, the author writes exclusively slash only in the movieverse, and reads no comics, although she seems to have gained a passing familiarity with some comics characters, mostly in terms of names and powers, not personalities. She does have other fandoms, but they don't involve Jackman or Marsden (that I can tell). I'm not familiar with the other fandoms enough to say whether her characterizations there are any more on target but I did read through a short example in another (you had me curious) and it seems to be basically the same characters with different names and faces and a different setting. So I suspect she's a fan of a particular Romance template and simply switches out the roles depending on what actors she finds "hot" in particular fandoms?

But again, that's just one example, so it's dangerous to assume it's representative of other writers who write that kind of story.
Katt[info]xenokattz on July 30th, 2005 05:47 am (UTC)
P.S. Why do I never see typos until thirty minutes AFTER I post something? apologies for them.
Minisinoo: cool scott[info]minisinoo on July 30th, 2005 06:28 am (UTC)
Not a problem. I wind up with lots of them, sometimes funny ones, too. In fact, one measure of my comfort level with people involves the amount of typos. (G) I tend to proofread my posts in strangers' journals or in reply to strangers in my journal, more carefully. If I "know" you, I figure you'll forgive my slippy fingers. LOL!