mattpayne ([info]mattpayne) wrote,
@ 2005-05-31 18:11:00
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Sorry, Your Excellency
The sparsely populated but lavishly funded Citizens For A Safer Minnesota brought a Catholic bishop to the Senate earlier this month in a feeble attempt to convince our legislators to vote against mainstream, common-sense shall-issue carry permits.

His remarks were on their expensive but poorly-designed web site, and I missed them until now.

I started reading his comments with as much respect for His Excellency as I do for any other man who has made a life's work of serving others, but I was quite disappointed by what I can only call his propaganda. I mean, doesn't a Catholic education include courses in logic?

I don't believe that the Bishop is that foolish; I can only conclude that he was dissembling.

Lying, even for what you believe to be a just cause, is still lying, and I think their Bible says something about that.



From the Repeal-Conceal-Citizens-For-Repressive- Anti-Freedom-Laws-End-Gun-Violence-By-Taking-Guns- Away-From-Everyone-But-The-Criminals.com
web site:

Testimony of the Most Reverend Richard E. Pates,
Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of St. Paul & Minneapolis
Minnesota State Senate
Crime Prevention & Public Safety Committee
Senator Leo Foley, Chair
May 2, 2005
Subject: Proposed Handgun-Carrying Law


Good morning Mister Chair and members of the committee. I am Bishop Richard Pates, of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, and I am a member of the Board of Directors of the Minnesota Catholic Conference which is the statewide public policy organization of the Roman Catholic Bishops from each of the six Dioceses in Minnesota. Thank you for providing me with an opportunity to share our perspective on this matter with you this morning.

We Bishops adamantly oppose any law which would increase the number of handguns carried in our communities and this proposed law will result in exactly that.

Why do you oppose more non-violent people carrying handguns?
At the very least, we believe that an individual who desires to carry a loaded deadly weapon in public must have a legitimate job-related need or a demonstrated personal safety reason to do so.

Do we not all have a right to personal safety? And do we all have crystal balls to tell us when we may be victimized?
And, we further believe that our law enforcement personnel must have the discretion to deny handgun-carrying permits to individuals within their communities who they deem may pose a public safety risk to others if they were granted what is, in our opinion, the extraordinary privilege of carrying a loaded deadly weapon in public.

Here in the U. S. of A., we call it a "right," sir.
It is our contention that the now-existing handgun permitting law adequately provides for these considerations.


So why, under the old law, were there 44 times more permits per capita issued in Beltrami County (that's up by Bemidji) than in Hennepin County? Is it really that much more dangerous up there?

(I'm not making this up. Grab a calculator, look up permits issued at the BCA web site and populations at the state demographer's web site and see for yourself!)
We Bishops joined together to challenge this law after it was first passed two years ago, and with our support and encouragement, a local Catholic parish from each of our six Dioceses across our state, serving as representative parishes for all of our Catholic churches in Minnesota, joined together with congregations from other faiths as plaintiffs in the Ramsey County lawsuit which successfully challenged this law in our Minnesota Courts. We chose to do this because it is our duty and obligation to confront a culture of violence and build a culture of peace.


Whoops. Bad move, Bishop. You just declared, publicly and on the record, that you aren't concerned about United States Constitutional issues of separation of church and state, or even the Minnesota Constitutional issue about single subjects, the very bases of your lawsuit. Instead, you are merely attempting to use the courts under that pretext to impose your theology upon everyone in the state.

Very, very bad move. We won't forget.

In our 1995 statement Confronting a Culture of Violence, our national organization of Catholic Bishops advised that:

Violence in our homes, our schools and street, our nation and world is destroying the lives, dignity and hopes of millions of our sisters and brothers. Fear of violence is paralyzing and polarizing our communities. . . . A nation born in a commitment to ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’ is haunted by death, imprisoned by fear and caught up in the elusive pursuit of protection rather than happiness.


It's pretty fuzzy-headed to imagine that you can be happy if you're not safe.

This bill is born of the fear of violence of which we spoke

Are fire extinguishers born of the fear of fire? Or are they maybe just a sensible precaution in a world where fires sometimes burn?
and if this bill becomes law, we believe that it will not only further polarize our communities but it will make us all less safe.

You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but have you ever considered looking at, you know, facts? Shall-issue doesn't increase crime, mayhem, violence or even athlete's foot.
Thirty years ago -- in 1975 -- our United States Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a statement entitled Handgun Violence: A Threat to Life. In this statement, we explained,

We are deeply committed to upholding the value of human life and opposing those forces which threaten it. One of these factors is the easy availability of handguns in our society. Because it is so easily concealed, the handgun is often the weapon of crime. Because it is readily available, it is often the weapon of passion and suicide. . . . . The unlimited freedom to possess and use handguns must give way to the rights of all peoples to safety and protection against those who misuse these weapons. We believe that effective action must be taken to reverse this rising tide of violence.

Keep calling for less freedom, sir. That'll convince us.

Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear how law-abiding citizens are going to contribute to this "rising tide of violence."
We believe that this proposed handgun-carrying law is but one example of a troubling trend in our society to reject the common good through the adoption of laws and public policies that place a distorted emphasis upon individual rights.

Wait a sec... You do know which country you're in, right? You would deny what you acknowledge to be a right because a small minority will abuse it?
Moreover, we believe that this proposed handgun-carrying law fuels our existing culture of violence by encouraging individuals to respond to violence -- or a perceived threat of violence -- with yet more violence.

Um, yeah. Meeting violence with passivity is a good way to end up dead.
It doesn’t have to be this way. It wasn’t always this way. We must all carefully examine the messages we are sending and the lessons we are teaching our children with the public policies we enact.

"Your life is worth preserving, and mommy and daddy are willing to fight for it." Yeah, that's a pretty awful message.
We can choose to turn away from violence and towards building communities of greater peace.

True!
We can choose to begin this work together today by rejecting this bill.

Whoops, false. One more time: Shall-issue does not lead to increased violence. Not here, not in the 38 other states. Never.
Let us hear and act together with new urgency on the words of Jesus Christ, "Blessed are the peacemakers; they shall be called the children of God" (Matthew 5:9).

Well, I don't think that the Christian Bible should be a basis for policy decisions, but as long as we're quoting Jesus:

"He said to them, 'But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.'" (Luke 22:36)
A non-partisan coalition of distinguished Minnesota statesmen, including former-Vice President Walter Mondale and former-Governor Arne Carlson, with whom I am proud to be associated, have pointed out that this proposed law is a retreat from our cherished values and our prized quality of life.

If leaving the people defenseless is a cherished value, we need to get some new ones. Oh, yeah, we did get some new values: Don't punish the law-abiding for the sins of the criminals.
Moreover, we believe that it is imperative for us all to seek to responsibly balance the so-called private right to bear arms with our individual rights associated with personal and private property including those of Juridic persons and all parts of our properties including our churches, parking lots, grounds and our other religious organizations and facilities.

With you, I have seen the destructive forces of guns in our communities including:
  • The overwhelming tragedies of the Red Lake and Rocori High School shootings;

...In which no one had a means with which to resist the violence! Fortunately, the shooter at Rocori laid down his gun when told to by a teacher. The shooter at Red Lake killed seven people at the school, because everyone inside was unarmed.

  • In North Minneapolis where a peaceful group of Visitation Nuns assert that the persistent and all-too-common volley of gunfire makes a typical summer weekend sound like the fireworks on the Fourth of July;
All of them permit holders? No? Then how will defeating the permit law stop the illegal firing of guns within city limits? More fuzzy thinking.
  • Where in the last month, the Minneapolis police department reported that Minneapolis is a safer city because their officers have recovered dozens of guns from that city’s streets; and

Well, concentrating on rounding up illegally owned guns is a fine idea.

It's like emptying the Atlantic Ocean with a teaspoon, but it's a fine idea.
  • Personally experiencing the pain, profound anguish and unspeakable suffering of a family who lost an exemplary 20-year-old son who was the victim of a handgun on our streets.
Was he shot by a permit-holder? No? Well, then, what does that have to do with this?
We must ask, are we endangering the most basic human right of all -- the right to life -- by extending a so-called personal right from its explicitly-stated purpose that emerged in a far different era and culture which, in fact, was even more violent than ours?
Ah, the old Constitution-is-outdated argument. Shall we dispense with the First Amendment too? You don't really need a constitutional guarantee for freedom of religion these days, do you? I mean, it's not like the King of England is still bullying us or anything. Nope, dated. Let's just throw it all away.
Sadly, it appears that the members of this legislature might ignore our pleas and the will of the majority of the citizens in our state and enact this law. With that in mind, let me take a few moments to address just a few of our serious objections to this bill.

Ø Individuals with a record of violence should not be allowed to carry loaded deadly weapons in public; anyone with any felony conviction or a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor conviction for any violent crime -- such as domestic violence, stalking, terroristic threats or assault and battery -- should never be eligible for a permit.

That's in the new law, not the old one that you found so adequate.
Ø No guns in schools; guns must be prohibited in all K through 12 schools, childcare centers and daycare facilities including parking lots and grounds.
That, too, is in the new law, not the old one that you found so adequate.
Ø Alcohol and guns don’t mix;
That's quite true. The new law prohibits carrying while intoxicated. The old law, which you found so adequate, did not.
[G]uns should be prohibited from bars and other places that sell or serve alcohol and permits should not be valid when the permit holder is consuming any amount of alcohol.
So when I go to TGI Friday's with the wife and kids, I should be prohibited from protecting myself because they are serving beer to other people? I think we can agree that a blood alcohol concentration of .04 is not impaired, can't we? Or do you get too sloshed to preach from that sip of sacramental wine?
Ø Local control; local governments should have the authority to ban guns from their buildings, parking lots, grounds and parks and athletic fields.
So you're good with local control as long as it's more restrictive? How about if it's less restrictive? Do you really want different laws about carrying in church in each city and township?

Ø And, as you may expect, no guns in our churches, parking lots, grounds and our religious organizations and facilities; all religious institutions and organizations should be totally exempt from the law.

Sure, after all, you're exempt from zoning laws, building codes, fire and safety codes, health codes...

Oh, really, you're not? Tough luck. I know you think your churches are something special, but they're just another private nonprofit in the eyes of the law. And that's the way it should be.
My fellow Bishops and I thank you for your consideration and we urge you to vote “NO” on this bill.
Well, of course the legislators showed more sense than that.


I find it most ironic, and not pleasantly so, that the very church leader who challenged the law on the basis of separation of church and state is in reality looking to impose the church's values on the state.



(Post a new comment)

Nice!
[info]exoticmatter
2005-06-02 02:27 am UTC (link)
Nice! They want separation of church and state...

...until it's inconvenient for their PERSONAL desires.

Don't you love how most people's religion coincides with whatever their own personal beliefs and desires are?

(Reply to this)


[info]wombat_socho
2005-06-02 02:58 am UTC (link)
It's guys like him that make it hard to be a Catholic. Well, the other guys with a thing for teenage boys, too, but the people who have Marx and Lenin confused with Jesus give me a migraine.

(Reply to this)


[info]vfrdirk
2005-06-02 03:00 am UTC (link)
That's nice work...thanks.

Dirk

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2005-06-02 03:55 am UTC (link)
>>Personally experiencing the pain, profound anguish and unspeakable suffering of a family who lost an exemplary 20-year-old son who was the victim of a handgun on our streets.

> Was he shot by a permit-holder? No? Well, then, what does that have to do with this?

Clearly: since he was an exemplary 20-year-old, he obeyed the law. Therefore, since he couldn't get a permit, he was unable to effectively defend himself against a criminal with a gun.

(Reply to this)

theological question
[info]brbethke
2005-06-02 01:56 pm UTC (link)
The Bish cites chapter and verse:

Let us hear and act together with new urgency on the words of Jesus Christ, "Blessed are the Peacemakers; they shall be called the children of God" (Matthew 5:9)


I just want to know: is this blessing strictly reserved for Peacemakers, or are other Colt models blessed as well? And is my Vaquero close enough to count?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: theological question
[info]patcannon
2005-06-02 04:28 pm UTC (link)
Ha! I can see the bumper sticker: What Would Jesus Shoot?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re: theological question
[info]exoticmatter
2005-06-02 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Now THIS is hilarious. I happened to be on the phone with a client when I read this and began cackling madly into the phone.

:)

Bartleby

(Reply to this)(Parent)


(Anonymous)
2005-06-02 02:08 pm UTC (link)
We believe that this proposed handgun-carrying law is but one example of a troubling trend in our society to reject the common good through the adoption of laws and public policies that place a distorted emphasis upon individual rights.

So, we can't place too much emphasis on individual rights, however...

Moreover, we believe that it is imperative for us all to seek to responsibly balance the so-called private right to bear arms with our individual rights associated with personal and private property including those of Juridic persons and all parts of our properties including our churches, parking lots, grounds and our other religious organizations and facilities.

...some individual rights are more important than others.

(Reply to this)

outdated
[info]pakratus
2005-08-11 04:53 pm UTC (link)
"Ah, the old Constitution-is-outdated argument."

If the 200 year old Constitution of the United States is "Out-dated", then what is the _2000_ year old Bible?

Believe in the bible, that's fine. Churches- Don't tell me that something that was/is fundamental to our country forming is outdated when the Bible has it beat (in age) by 1800 years. Ahh, that would be 10 times older? Like a 100 year old man telling a 10 year old: you're out-dated.

(Reply to this)


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