Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-08-30 22:08:00
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Current mood: bat against inborn virtue
Entry tags:characterization rants: protagonists, fantasy rants: summer 2005, stupid clichés rants

Making a protagonist into a hero
*stares at keyboard for a while*

Yeah, my definition is kind of over against the wall, given that I’ve lately started defining “hero” in negative terms and using “protagonist” or “main character” instead. So I have to try to praise something I don’t want to praise.



1) Show why the hero’s extraordinariness is something to be aspired to. It occurs to me that an awful lot of fantasy heroes fail this very simple test. And no, I don’t mean that they’re fictional and the reader isn’t, nor that the reader might have a very hard time imitating the hero. I mean that, within the context of the fictional world, other characters would have a very hard time emulating this supposedly admirable and heroic figure.

The reason?

Because so many fantasy heroes are special/extraordinary because of something they’re born with, and which other characters cannot possess by simple virtue of genetics. Yes, again.

*Limyaael disembowels genetic heroism with glee again, because the damn thing will not stay dead*

Your hero is a princess. She rules the country, and that’s why she’s a hero. Okay. How is the average peasant sidekick supposed to imitate her, even if he looks up to her? One could show him making similar efforts on a smaller scale, but unless the author specifically links those efforts to character traits—like good management sense—instead of birth, the reader may not note the parallels. She’s a princess, she’s special because of what she’s born with, hurrah. Except that not everyone in a fantasy world can be a princess. That’s implied by the very nature of the political system (and by authors’ priorities, too; they don’t want everybody to be princesses).

Your hero is a swordsman. He pulls out the Mystical Sword of Ty’ly’tyy’r—the sheer ugliness of that thing should be all the case I need to make against apostrophes in names, ever—because he is the secret long-lost scion of the Sword’s original carrier. Then he proceeds to win battles because of his sword. Even the greatest generals cannot match him, because their strategic and tactical skills mean nothing against his blade. And your point about inspiring other people to follow him was…? Quite often, heroes who possess a Mystical Object are nothing more than hollow shells. You could exchange them with any other character in the book and that character would fit the role of hero just as well.

Your hero is an earth mage. She has the ability to call on the earth to obey her command, because she comes from a long line of witches. Yep, it’s genetic magic again. Howdy, how are ya, genetic magic? And when her comrades learn to respect and follow her, it’s entirely because of a luck-of-the-draw magical talent that came to her from birth. Saying that someone is better than other characters because of genetic magic is undercutting your own story, because the other characters can hardly be blamed for not being born with that magic. You created them that way, after all.

Instead, show characteristics that protagonists possess, and that other humans can. Then, show how other characters emulate the heroic trait. Show how her cleverness inspires other people to start thinking their way out of situations where fighting would do no good. Show other people learning from him the art of clever speech to bedazzle and fool their enemies. Show how her courage turns the tide of battle. Show how his sheer willingness to face the consequences of his actions shames a lord who was running a complicated bluff into following him.

Those are heroes. They can be extraordinary, even in several dimensions, but if that extraordinariness is something they did not earn and can’t even choose whether to exercise—most times, the mage heroes have to use their talents—then I don’t think they’re heroes, sorry.

2) Make sure that your hero fulfills and transcends her paradigm. So your heroine is a Christ figure. That’s great. And you’re going to tell the Christian story from a feminist point of view. That’s nice.

And?

Oh, there is no “and.” That’s the whole thing right there.

I will now steal a quote from Tolkien: “I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations.” Or: Don’t trust an outside story or paradigm to do all the work for you. Show us what makes your character worthy of being followed, being read about, and being admired other than the fact that she’s walking around loaving-and-fishing everybody. Steal the shell of the story, place it on someone’s shoulders, and she can go through the entire business—Last Supper, betrayal, crucifixion, wounding, death, resurrection—and not matter. Why? Because the people reading this story will not be seeing your hero. They’ll be seeing Christ, overlaid on your hero.

There’s also the fact that I think a retelling has to do a lot more than change the gender of a character to be original, and the fact that a lot of your story’s resonance will fade if it encounters the “wrong” audience, such as someone from a different religion. But we’ll ignore that for a moment, and concentrate on the heroic aspect.

How does a hero transcend the paradigm, while still fulfilling it and remaining a hero? Any number of ways:

-Use parallel events, not the same things. I’d much rather read about an original spin on the crucifixion than someone being nailed to yet another cross.
-Play up different aspects of the paradigm. I was much more interested in the Christian story (not having been raised with it) when I learned the “Let this cup pass from my lips” part, and “Why hast thou forsaken me?” I empathize with doubt.
-Reach for varied emotions. I tend to cry at portrayals of someone dying and going to Heaven, and then I feel angry with myself for falling for it and angry with the writer for mashing my emotional buttons to get cheap tears. Try for joy, irritation, pride, glee, and other emotions that will show the human existing in the middle of the paradigm, only magnified.
-Try envisioning your hero outside the paradigm, and see if you can still see her. If you can’t, if the only thing that matters is the role she plays in the story and not her, herself, as a unique person, then I think you’ve got another case of Point 1 and the Mystical Object. Anyone could play the damn part. Now stop writing an allegory and start writing a damn story.

And Limyaael said, “Lo, let there be Point 3.”

3) Suffering by itself does not make someone a hero. If it did, then the most common fantasy stories would not be about lost scions of noble lines questing for this, that, and the other object named after an element; they would be about the peasants, who most often lose not only family members but their livelihoods, their homes, their health, and their safety in the wake of the hero’s and the Dark Lord’s battle. You want suffering? There’s suffering. Any of the people who get tossed in as local color in most fantasy worlds knows more about personal pain than most heroes. And yet, authors don’t spend a lot of time following the trials and tribulations of peasants who become refugees, or stay in the same place and try to eke out a living, without some Wise Old Mentor sweeping them off. I wonder why.

So. Back to the point (or this shall turn into an anti-high fantasy rant, and I am trying very hard not to let it turn into that). A hero can be an abused child. She can be raped. He can lose his entire family in the slaughter of his village—why in the world that is such a popular beginning for a novel I will never know. She can grow up never knowing the terrible secret that her parents are keeping from her, all the while haunted by a ghost. It doesn’t matter. None of those things make someone a hero just by virtue of them being in the place where they happened. All the characters have to do is lie back and take it. And though it might win them the readers’ pity, it’s awfully hard to build heroism on a foundation of pity.

You know what to do with suffering?

Show someone surviving it.

Yes, I know that it’s hard to write a story of psychological healing; it’s not something that most experience writing fantasy trains us to do. (Though I have something to say about that, too. See point 4). But you can do it anyway. Or you can write a story about someone who, yes, has experienced suffering, but that is not the whole of her life; she’s gotten past it so well that she doesn’t brood on it every moment of every day, the way a lot of heroes do. Or you can write a story about someone who rides out each day as it comes. That means she has bad days, but, once again, brooding does not eat all her time alive.

All of those are more heroes than the heroine who suffers, then bursts into floods of tears and tells her story to sympathetic ears, then broods on it, then “overcomes” it—with the help of companions and genetic magic and a love interest that the author handed to her on a silver platter.

4) Write differently-heroic stories. Oh, yes. That’s easy to say but hard to do, right?

Actually, I think it’s both hard to say and hard to do, because, as I noted above, it’s not the way most fantasy writers are taught. Someone can be self-taught and self-read in the fantasy genre (hi there!) but still not pick up many different examples because so much of the genre follows so many of the same “heroic” patterns and “heroic” stories. The story is conflict; the hero is extraordinary—usually because of inborn gifts—but initially reluctant, because self-will and ambition are traits of the bad guys; there’s a quest or a war or both, in which the hero must play a significant part; and at the end, the world is righted again.

Now that I think about it, that’s a good place to start. Set up your own paradigm of most fantasy stories concerning heroes. It can have the same steps as mine does above, or entirely different ones. For now, we’ll use mine, since it’s convenient.

Then, find ways around all those roadblocks.

Does a story have to be all conflict? Maybe yes. Maybe no. It is very hard to write a fantasy story in which characters don’t conflict with a Dark Lord or a dark past or evil magic, but I think it’s hard because that’s not what we’re trained to do. So, if your mind immediately jumps to a good vs. evil conflict when you’re considering this stage, try plotting out a different one instead. Inner conflicts, conflicts unresolved at the ending, and familiar conflicts set in utterly different territory because of the way the viewpoint character sees things are all places to start with. Or you could try studying how a vignette does what it does and then making it into a story.

Does a hero have to be extraordinary? In the definition I’ve been using so far, yes. But, as I think I’ve mentioned and mentioned and mentioned and mentioned, I love stories where ordinary people are the heroes. I’ve heard them called “boring.” On the other hand, is the next story about a blond barbarian swordsman storming into a city to rescue a mystical sword, or the next story about a barbarian swordswoman getting revenge for her rape, really that interesting? Tone down the muscles and the swords and see what happens, or switch the emphasis to another part of the character altogether.

Do the gifts have to be inborn? HELL NO. I think we’ve already discussed that.

Does the hero have to be reluctant? HELL NO. I meant to put an option on this poll on how to write good reluctant heroes and didn’t get around to it, but right now I am glad of it, because that means that I can attack this concept even more viciously. I realized lately that a lot of the first story ideas I think of involve reluctant heroes, which dismays me. Come on. Show characters taking charge of their own lives. Start the story near the moment of crisis, instead of ten steps back from it. Show a character putting up with things until she can tolerate them no more. Put her in a cramped life she’s longing to get out of. All those are possible answers.

Does the plot have to be a quest or a war? HELL—okay, that’s enough of that for right now. But, seriously, try this once. Tell yourself that your story will not involve your hero going on a journey that seeks for anything, or getting engaged in large-scale or small-scale violence. See what wriggles out when you pin the plot, instead of the character.

Does the world need to be righted? Ironically, this is where I think the fantasy genre could benefit from looking at Tolkien, who is often blamed for a lot of things that are really not his fault. I’ve heard a lot of people complain about the ending to LOTR, because, surprise surprise, it goes on after Aragorn’s coronation. Why not end on a moment of joy?

Because that would be false, of course. Because then it would look like the world was all right and righted, and we know that’s not true. The Elves are leaving, the Rings are leaving, the Elvish lands are fading, Frodo is going, Gandalf is going, the Hobbits and the Dwarves will fade in time. There’s a massive, massive loss here. And it is still better than what would have happened if Sauron had won. Middle-earth has won the lesser of two evils, and it makes Tolkien’s story more powerful, not less.

If you can’t fit a real hero into a falsely shiny happy ending, then perhaps you should not try. Change the ending instead.



All right, I think the poor heroes have taken enough of a beating.

Not that inborn virtue idea, though. That can take more beating. *goes after idea with bat*




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[info]edg
2005-08-31 02:56 am UTC (link)
I think at least part of the reason that Innate Virtue (whether by genetics or by means of a Magic Item) keeps appearing is that there's so much precedent for it: Herakles was sired by a god; Arthur held the sword Excalibur (and its arguably-more-powerful scabbard); Alexander was the son of kings (or of Zeus, if you ask Plutarch) and taught by Aristotle; Roland was the nephew of Charlemagne. (Yes, these are all Western traditions; that's what I'm versed in. Please forgive me.)

The problem is not, in my sight, with Innate Virtue itself; it's that too many writers are lazy, and say that my character is a hero because of her Innate Virtue, which is not in line with the traditions. Innate Virtue does not make someone a hero (although it might select for heroism); it is a tool to be used, and just as possession of a hammer does not make one a carpenter, possession of Innate Virtue does not make one a hero.

What I'd like to see is more stories showing this - those with Innate Virtue not using it (and perhaps garnering the glory fit for a hero anyway), so that those with "lesser" tools such as skill and bravery have to step to the fore. (Actually, thinking about it, one of the neatest parts of The Curse of Chalion is that Cazaril has Innate Virtue and goes out of his way to hide it most of the time.)

Anyway. </digression>

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[info]ataniell93
2005-08-31 03:34 am UTC (link)
That's what I try to do with characters who have innate virtue, when I do them. Like intelligence, creativity, strength, dexterity, ability with numbers, whatever--innate virtue can hardly be more than a tool.

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[info]l_clausewitz
2005-08-31 05:22 am UTC (link)
It can be phrased in a simpler but equally powerful way: "All characters should come from a distinct, unique blend of nature and nurture." So no characters who are totally comprised of their genetic advantages, and no characters who excel at everything they do either.

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(no subject) - [info]merditha, 2005-08-31 04:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-08-31 05:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 04:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2005-09-26 06:35 am UTC

(Deleted post)
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 04:08 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]laraqua, 2006-02-20 10:22 am UTC

[info]nojojojo
2005-08-31 05:12 pm UTC (link)
First, many thanks to limyaael for a really well-written and thought-provoking post.

As for your point, edg, I think you've hit the nail on the head about the laziness of writers who treat innate virtue as the the be-all and end-all of character development. And I posit a cultural explanation for this: Americanism. =P Seriously -- our culture is soooo about the innate virtue. Einstein was admirable because he was born with a higher IQ than the rest of us -- see?? We've measured it! Rich white men rule our society usually because they're the sons of previous rich white men, and we shower admiration and respect on them. So we've created our own genre of fantasy in the realm of comics -- superheroes -- and that ethos has spilled into all of our other fantasy literature. We all love the Supermen, the Wonder Women, the Spidermen, all of whom have innate powers. But the Batmen (who just have training and psychological Issues) have generally been less popular. Though it flies in the face of the creeds we claim to espouse -- that all people are created equal and that anyone who works hard enough will become successful -- the truth is that we're just not as interested in ordinary, hardworking people. Instead we want gods. Maybe with a flaw or two, like a pimple, or an oversized libido. But gods.

So I suspect that most of the worst offenders in this category are the ones with Americathink most deeply ingrained in their psyches.

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(no subject) - [info]silent_sybil, 2005-08-31 11:31 pm UTC
Yanno... - [info]bardessc, 2005-09-01 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nojojojo, 2005-09-02 12:49 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]evilprodigy, 2005-09-02 12:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nojojojo, 2005-09-02 12:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhjunior, 2005-09-25 10:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nojojojo, 2005-09-25 03:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhjunior, 2005-09-25 04:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 04:06 pm UTC

[info]jetamors
2005-08-31 03:30 am UTC (link)
Make sure that your hero fulfills and transcends her paradigm.

Amen to that. I'm not saying that books can't make larger points (heck, the best ones usually do), but if it doesn't work as a purely entertaining story, I don't have any time for it.

And I absolutely love stories about surviving tragedy. The horrible apocalyptic final battle is all well and good, but I want to see how people pick up the pieces afterwards.

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Ditto ditto - [info]pico_the_great, 2005-08-31 01:19 pm UTC
Re: Ditto ditto - [info]rhjunior, 2005-09-01 12:12 am UTC
Scary... - [info]bardessc, 2005-09-01 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 04:11 pm UTC

[info]pixelfish
2005-08-31 03:34 am UTC (link)
Points three and four had me thinking that the most heartbreaking stories are when two people are trying to both be heroic, and the thing they need to do to be heroic is coming up against somebody else's necessity. That whole good versus evil conflict is too easy for us to parse. Somebody's good versus somebody else's good is much harder.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 04:12 pm UTC

[info]frenchpony
2005-08-31 04:25 am UTC (link)
As to points 3 and 4. . . perhaps all aspiring fantasy writers should be required to read Maus and Maus II. I think it would be fascinating to see some fantasy heroes along the lines of Vladek Spiegelman. I can't think of any right now, but that may be because I've been reading Until I Find You all evening, and it's turning out to be one of John Irving's weirder novels.

Actually, speaking of John Irving, if you consider A Prayer For Owen Meany a fantasy in a modern setting, you have in Owen a very memorable answer to point 2.

And, of course, there's always good old Garrett, P. I. when you need a really rousing alternative hero.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 04:12 pm UTC

[info]ignipes
2005-08-31 04:35 am UTC (link)
It is very hard to write a fantasy story in which characters don’t conflict with a Dark Lord or a dark past or evil magic, but I think it’s hard because that’s not what we’re trained to do.

Oh, how I wish more fantasy writers would break free of this training and realise that "good vs. evil" isn't always the best starting place. "People vs. other people" is so much more interesting and engaging. Of course, "evil magic" removes the necessity of thinking up reasons for the enemy acting the way they do, so I guess it's not surprising that so many writers use it.

All of these things you've listed apply not just to fantasy heroes, but to all protagonists, especially point 4. I think all writers could benefit from asking themselves, "Does the character have to do that?" And when the answer is no (the answers is almost always no) then asking, "So what shall she do instead?"

Do you mind if I friend you? I've read quite a few of your rants, and figured it's high time I let you know I enjoy them. :)

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 04:13 pm UTC

[info]merditha
2005-08-31 04:44 am UTC (link)
2) Make sure that your hero fulfills and transcends her paradigm.

People first. Paradigm second.

The paradigm may fit the person. THE PERSON MUST BE BIGGER THAN THE DAMN PARADIGM.

Rar. Yes.

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(no subject) - [info]goldjadeocean, 2005-08-31 05:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]merditha, 2005-08-31 04:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ril_chan, 2005-08-31 06:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]merditha, 2005-09-01 07:39 pm UTC

[info]goldjadeocean
2005-08-31 05:10 am UTC (link)
And Limyaael said, “Lo, let there be Point 3.”

Best. Transition. Ever.

The rest of the rant was great. But I loved that part.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:37 pm UTC

[info]blunder_buss
2005-08-31 05:13 am UTC (link)
I am kinda screwed with number 1 with my fanfiction, because the hero is the most powerful android ever built. Thus most of his physical power is thus 'in-born'. However, I've always planned for him to survive because he's a smart and determined munchkin, not because of fancy armors.

I was gonna suggest reluctant heroes at the last poll too, but I forgot. Woe.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:37 pm UTC

[info]mindelemental
2005-08-31 05:40 am UTC (link)
Hmmm. With 1., one of my story ideas is that some people have, by sheer random chance, inborn powers of luck, personal magnetism, and charisma. They are not hereditary. Neither do they confer any moral superiority.
And I'm planning for the main character to have such powers, but be a decidedly morally ambiguous sort. Thoughts?

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(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-08-31 12:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tamerterra, 2005-08-31 09:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindelemental, 2005-09-02 12:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mindelemental, 2005-09-02 11:58 am UTC
Thoughts at 3:00 in the morning
[info]bardessc
2005-08-31 07:10 am UTC (link)
Thank yew, thank yew. I am a hard-core pessimist when it comes to Innate Virtue. I am convinced there's no such thing. So Innate Virtue reealllly gets on my nerves.
Tolkien did a good job of not limiting himself to the "Christ-story" paradigm that so many "Christian" critics I've encountered seem to think is the heart of LOTR. *goes looking for beating stick* Can you say "missed the point?"
But then again, these are the same guys who do it with Tolkien's buddy's The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, too. (All right! You got me! I'm a CS Lewis lover!)
I am so all for unlikely (and I do mean unlikely, not unlikely-until-you-find-out-he's-really-a-great-insertwhateverhere) heroes and ordinary heroes. Not much into antiheroes, but that's another story. I also think there's something to the belief that people don't know how heroic they really are until forced to display it, and I'm hoping that shows through in the story I'm working on (or trying to) right now, and that more GOOD stories are written about that.

Actually, I think it’s both hard to say and hard to do, because, as I noted above, it’s not the way most fantasy writers are taught. Someone can be self-taught and self-read in the fantasy genre (hi there!) but still not pick up many different examples because so much of the genre follows so many of the same “heroic” patterns and “heroic” stories.

Aaaand that would be why I'm avoiding all (save a few select books) fantasy right now.

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Yay, I get to share with the class now! - [info]bardessc, 2005-08-31 05:25 pm UTC
Re: Yay, I get to share with the class now! - [info]cartesiandaemon, 2005-08-31 06:00 pm UTC

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Re: Yay, I get to share with the class now! - [info]cartesiandaemon, 2005-08-31 06:25 pm UTC

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Re: Yay, I get to share with the class now! - [info]bardessc, 2005-09-01 02:53 am UTC
Re: Yay, I get to share with the class now! - [info]merditha, 2005-08-31 11:12 pm UTC
Re: Yay, I get to share with the class now! - [info]bardessc, 2005-09-01 03:04 am UTC
Re: Yay, I get to share with the class now! - [info]merditha, 2005-09-01 03:13 am UTC
Re: Yay, I get to share with the class now! - [info]bardessc, 2005-09-01 03:26 am UTC
Re: Thoughts at 3:00 in the morning - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:38 pm UTC
Whew
[info]alegwyni
2005-08-31 07:52 am UTC (link)
Check... check... check... Good so far.

I love how you bring to the fore that ordinary people can be heroes. That's something most people overlook, not just in their writing but in everyday life. If everyone would just step up, show initiative and get things done, maybe the world wouldn't be quite so fucked up.

Or maybe it would be worse. Scratch that.

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Re: Whew - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-08-31 12:47 pm UTC

[info]cifling
2005-08-31 09:40 am UTC (link)
There's a book called "Hart's Hope" by Orson Scott Card which uses many of the hero cliches, but still manages to create an admirable character. Orem is the son of a king, chosen by the gods. He has a 'talent' that makes him unique, the only one able to defeat the evil villainness. In the end he does, but in a way that loses him what he valued most.

Although he has the genetics and the gifts, he's also shown to be formed by his upbringing, and doesn't do anything wildly inappropriate for a kindly farmer's son with clerk's training.

None of the characters - or the gods - are perfect, and the evil villainness becomes so because of evil done against her, so even while you realise she has to be defeated, there is a certain sympathy for her.

(Despite its originality this doesn't seem to be a very well-known fantasy, perhaps because the narrative style is very off-putting for most readers.)

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(no subject) - [info]l_clausewitz, 2005-08-31 12:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:38 pm UTC

[info]pico_the_great
2005-08-31 01:17 pm UTC (link)
Point three? Point three.

(distibutes point three at large.)

The heros that are Special Because they Suffer but Don't, Really are the ones that drive me up the wall.

Also, thanks for bashing the Reluctant Heros and Genetic Heros. Because normal people can be something other than boring.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:38 pm UTC

[info]evilstorm
2005-08-31 03:33 pm UTC (link)
Agree with #1, but would like to point out that it's possible to have characters that are heroes by virtue of noble birth simply cos they have better access to everything. I suppose that it's okay if they're genetically gifted--because some people do have outstanding talents that most of the rest of the world lacks--but have other qualities that provide reason for the heroism as well.

But I would like to see a hero like that then being yelled at by some other poor common sod who aspires to everything that the hero is but just can't do it due to not having the opportunities/genetic-whatevers. If the author confronts that problem and deals with it in the story, I think it might work.

(Sorry--sleepy, incoherent.)

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:38 pm UTC

[info]cartesiandaemon
2005-08-31 05:48 pm UTC (link)
Yes.

But Re: 1. I would have said I agree. But many of many favorite heros are inherant. Aragorn. Corwin. That Sam. (*Maybe* Harry Potter though I don't love him as much).

I think maybe the cause is that a character who is perservering, intellegent, identifiable with, can be so much more impressive/interesting/publishable when placed on a lever to be able to alter the world, rather than just their immediate surroundings. Whether the level is "in the right place at the right time" or "is super-mage" :)

And then many worse authors miss this point and concentrate on "lightning, cool!" rather than "character development, cool!"

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[info]jaquiel
2005-08-31 08:24 pm UTC (link)
FUCK YEAH on point 3. I was fucking miserable during my middle school years. I suffered. And then, I proceeded to be an asshole about it, and I fucked with my parents' lives. Now, I consider myself a very happy person (maybe unusually so), and while I don't think I'm the kind of person you should aspire to be, I think that if you had to choose between the person I am now and the person I was then, you'd have to chose the one I am now, hands down. Tragedy =/= heroism.

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[info]tamerterra
2005-08-31 08:47 pm UTC (link)
"...It doesn’t matter. None of those things make someone a hero just by virtue of them being in the place where they happened. All the characters have to do is lie back and take it. And though it might win them the readers’ pity, it’s awfully hard to build heroism on a foundation of pity."
Word. I do all of that to my 'heroine' (by which I mean 'veiwpoint character') and she turns out the bad guy (Which is, IMO, a more likely reaction to the world conspiring against one).

And to the 'conflict doesn't need to be Good vs. Evil' - Word.

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[info]silent_sybil
2005-08-31 10:34 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. I hate inborn heroism-- genetic magic and long-lost prophecies (ugh, prophecies; I especially hate them) are cheating. That's all they are.

People write convenient, wonderful advantages for their heroes as a kind of remote wish-fulfillment. "Maybe someday someone will tell me-- humble, unsuspecting little me-- that I'm actually the long-lost princess of L'kul-A'kul! When that happens, everything will start to go right, just like it did for BlahBlah, my totally unrelated struggling-princess protagonist!

It's amazingly disappointing to get knee-deep in a really fabulous fantasy novel and suddenly realize that, yes, this is going to be another one of those. It's also like some authors just all of a sudden chicken out, and decide that their readers will never believe that the humble Ogga is favored of Thromm, God Of Warfare, just because she's a really nifty person-- and so they decide in the process of writing that, actually, Ogga's long-dead father was really the last in a line of secret priest-warriors in the service of Thromm, and now that the male line has died out there's no one to continue things but Ogga.

Because that was a very coherent, concrete example.

o_o

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kgbooklog, 2005-09-01 12:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]silent_sybil, 2005-09-01 12:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-09-01 07:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]silent_sybil, 2005-09-01 10:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marumae, 2005-09-26 06:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]silent_sybil, 2005-09-26 12:51 pm UTC

[info]avrelia
2005-09-01 12:12 am UTC (link)
awesome rant. Agree on all points 1,2,3, and 4. Innate features are not bad by themself in the story - but how the author makes the charaacter Hero because said characters has special features - and nobody has to deal with the consequences of it.

And I love dealing with the consequences (well, I like reading about it) !

Another thing I love to see in Hero - falling and rising again, and I hate the notion that hero always does the right thing - totally unrealiistic. Who can know The Right thing every time? I love to see hero making the wrong choice, or just something completely unheroic, and stay teh hero at the end.

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[info]gauroth
2005-09-04 02:45 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I so agree with your first point! (And the rest, come to that.) Something that irritates the socks off me about some fantasy series is the idea that being born an aristo makes you inherently good/deserving/lovable/awe-some/insert suitably worshipful word here. Even though I enjoy Janny Wurts' books, that attitude towards her characters really bugs me. Perhaps because I live in a monarchy.

Please, please may I friend you? Your rants are wonderful!

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[info]sistermonster
2005-09-12 05:49 pm UTC (link)
*cheers again* i am loving this ^_^

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