Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2005-03-16 20:17:00
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Current mood: I want better villains
Entry tags:characterization rants: villains, fantasy rants: winter 2005

Rant on interesting villains
This is different from other rants I’ve done before, which mainly concentrated on avoiding clichés like Dark Lord fortresses, stupid villains who blab everything right before the hero kills them, and so on. This is on actually improving villains and making them interesting (at least, I hope so).



1) Give them motives that differ in degree rather than kind from the heroes’ motives. If they bother to think at all, authors often come up with good motives for characters, ranging from the frivolous to the extremely practical, the personal to the political, and everywhere in between. I have no idea why this common sense jumps out the window when it comes to villains’ motives. While every other character in the story is motivated by something like money, vengeance, love, the need to protect a friend, and so on, the villain wants to take over the world because he’s EEEEEVIIIIIIL, or because he’s the kind of violent, virulent racist most modern readers wouldn’t pay a fig of attention to if they passed him preaching in the street.

That’s where most fantasy villains become caricatures for me, really, is at the motivation. The author doesn’t bother exaggerating the degree of their desires, which I think would work (more on this in a second). She gives them motives that clash too strongly with modern morals for any readers to be on their side. She makes them insane, which by now is trite, and insists that they don’t have to make sense. She might not even bother explaining why he wants the world, sometimes, or how he could have made progress towards his goal with everyone in the world hating him. It’s just there. You’re not supposed to question why the author made someone evil.

Well, I do question. And I think it would work a lot better if the author did make the villains motivated by money, vengeance, love, and the desire to protect a friend. The problem is that it’s gotten out of hand, and turned from something only affecting an ordinary person to something affecting hundreds or thousands.

Think. The people who have the most impact on our own world tend to be political leaders, businessmen, financiers, war leaders, and so on. Yet when we want an example of evil, most people turn to Hitler or Stalin; we don’t start saying that everyone whose actions affect someone else is evil. Most people don’t believe that everyone in power secretly sits behind a door rubbing their hands and cackling. They’re humans. Apply that insight to leaders in fantasy worlds, and come up with their psychology. Now pinpoint the part where their desires expanded and started becoming a problem. And say why it’s a problem. The “rightful” king might feel it’s a problem he’s been forced off his throne and put in the dungeon. Yet if he had started suspecting everyone else of treason because treason took down a neighboring king, and torturing people to insure that they were no traitors and because peasants are not quite real to him, then his “usurper” might feel he has a right to usurp the throne.

2) Make them empathic. I mentioned empathic villains in the “putting your character through hell” rant, because they are such great tools for that. An enemy who knows the hero will make him jump through hoops like no one else will.

But even shoving that aside for a moment, show them having the ability to empathize with people. It could be through compassion. It could be through charm. It could be through persuasion. It could be through long study, which leads to them hand-picking their trusted lieutenants and advisers. Whichever way you choose to play it, an empathic villain is much more interesting than yet another emotionless super-genius whom the emotional heroine will take down, or a villain blinded by his own disbelief in the power of love.

It’s one of the greatest—and, in fantasy, least-explored—mysteries that someone can commit heinous acts and yet love, and have people who love him. It’s, on the surface, something that does not compute. Yet love doesn’t cancel out evil, and its presence in a person is no guarantee that he hasn’t also done something awful, either in the past or a few moments ago, and no guarantee that he won’t ever do something awful in the future. Stop using love as a cure-all, and write a villain who knows, and shares, that emotion and others, yet has his reasons for going ahead.

3) Make them impulsive. So, if your villain is empathic and has motives and goals and desires like anyone else, what made him the hero’s enemy in the first place?

Impulsiveness—whether it’s a quick temper, a tendency to jump to conclusions, impatience, or something else—is a great answer. Fantasy villains are usually masterminds who plot for years to get their hands on the throne, on the money, on the world, on what have you. (This is, I think, why a lot of authors characterize them as cold-blood and unable to empathize: because they find it hard to imagine someone plotting for years who isn’t that way). Villains whose lives change because of an “oh shit!” moment are much more rare.

Wanna build interest? Think of the way that such a moment could happen, and that consequences from that moment could spiral out to engulf everyone involved in action and reaction, evil and good, political parry and thrust, that go on for years. It will require outlining—assuming you use an outline—and plotting of a different order than that which accompanies weaving a villain’s web. But so? Authors tend to do this all the time with their heroes, who are usually the impulsive ones, or the ones whose lives change because of a “chance” encounter.

I love mastermind villains, but too many authors assume they have to be unemotional, except for greed and hatred. If they find it too difficult to part one characteristic from the other, I’m all for the brash, too-quick, accidental villains to show up.

4) Show the villain learning the same lesson as the hero, with different results. Here’s the word that I emphasized during the point, and will emphasize again, since so many authors don’t get it:

learning
learning
learning
LEARNING

That means that I don’t think villains who exist only to be the hero’s foil, and fail at the lessons he learns, are interesting. Oh, yes, it’s sooooo fascinating when the hero learns the variations to the swordmaster’s techniques perfectly, and the swordmaster, who turns out to be evil, somehow forgets his own pointers. Only not. And it’s soooo deep when the hero has a problem with pride, but then learns to be humble, while the villain loses due to his own arrogance. Only, again, not.

I want to see a situation where the hero and the villain are close to each other in some traits, skills, desires, whatever, but both still obtain results that will work from those traits, skills, desires, whatever. Otherwise, it begins to seem as if the author is setting the hero and villain up as complements to very obviously make them play off each other. And I am Unhappy when I see a character that exists for one reason and one reason only. If the author had been more imaginative, she could have found a way to tell the story without that—as the story of the hero’s internal struggle with himself, for example, instead of a boring, one-note external enemy. And when the hero and villain are of equal intelligence, skill, determination, whatever, and the villain fails, the author usually has to resort to transparent plot-contrivances to make it so. The villain deciding to dash in where angels fear to tread when he’s always been cautious before is a popular one. So is the villain “forgetting” how to do something just at the crucial moment. Problem is, he’s known how to do the something all his life, so the author afflicting him with amnesia now is as convincing as a strip joint in heaven.

Quit it. The villain can still be villainous based on how he reacts to this particular character trait, skill, desire, whatever it is, but I want to see him reach a workable compromise with it. It just happens to be the wrong workable compromise.

5) Show villains who are convincing candidates to give the hero Stockholm Syndrome. Supposedly, heroes can be tempted and fall in most fantasies.

I don’t believe it.

Why? The hero’s temptation is impossible, first of all. He’s being tempted with something that he doesn’t really want, or that we know the villain can’t deliver. He doesn’t spend enough time with the villain to make the possible corruption convincing. He suffers physical pain that doesn’t alter his mind. And so on, and so forth. Authors again set up a situation that could hurt their hero, and then flinch at the final moment. Perhaps their whole intent was to play “Gotcha!” with the audience, but I don’t think so; most of them want a reader to feel suspense and terror when the beloved protagonist is in danger. But I don’t, when I know, as opposed to suspect, that nothing is going to happen to him. If I can reason it out beforehand, such as the villain tempting the hero with resurrecting his dead wife but me knowing, thanks to earlier chapters, that the hero is opposed to necromancy, my knowledge becomes iron-clad, and I watch in boredom as the expected denouement unfolds.

But a villain who is really empathic, reasonable, and seductive, as opposed to angry, raving, and wearing black a lot, is a different matter. This is the one arena where I would be willing to read about insane villains. After all, the really frightening madman is not the one who could cut you to pieces—lots of fighters in a fantasy world have that power—or the one who gibbers and points to things the hero can’t see—mages and seers also do that—but the one who can lure the hero into his madness.

I love mindfucks. The villain convinces the hero to start blurring the lines of his principles and the opposite side’s in his mind, or invites him over to madness and makes it seem attractive, and I drool. There’s a mindfuck of the highest order. There’s the place where horror starts leaking into fantasy. Real horror for me is not vampires and werewolves. I can get vampires and werewolves out of my head. Something that gets in my head and scratches itself a place, and which I can’t get out…oh, yes, that makes for a good villain.

It’s a thin line to walk, probably the thinnest of all the villain lines. The reason so many authors fail is because they mean the villains to sound convincing, but they don’t. They’re just spouting the usual villain dialogue and psychobabble clichés that so many villains before them have spouted. You’re going to have to work to get this right.

There’s one thing that might make it easier, though.

6) Write from the villain’s POV. And I mean “not in a way that makes him think about how evil he is, or basically good and going to defect to the Light Real Soon Now.” Treat him the way you would an ordinary character. Just write him. How does your hero see the world? Hopefully he’s not perfect, he has his flaws, but you still enjoy writing him; the differences in his beliefs and yours don’t affect that. Now imagine descending into your villain the same way.

But then he might not be a villain, just someone who sees the world in a different way.

Yes, I know. Isn’t it wonderful?

7) Give the hero and the villain something to respect about each other. There’s an old tradition of “honorable enemies,” but there, the villain is often the only one doing the respecting; he admires the hero’s nobility or some such rot, while the hero looks at him and sees nothing but evil. (Who’s the more empathic person there?) And they usually feel themselves doomed to future conflict, which the author almost never does a good job of building up.

Instead, introduce some honest respect into the relationship. If possible, separate it from the traits they have in common, as per point 4. A hero could admire the villain’s swordsmanship and still think he’s a son of a bitch, without truly admiring him for what he is outside the sword. A villain could think the hero has fine taste in wine and clothes, yet still despise him. That comes down to envy and not respect in the end.

Go out there. What does the villain do to get out of trouble time and time again? Does the hero come to grudging respect, particularly if he’s astute enough to realize that he’d respect the villain without reservation if she were on his side? Does the villain think the hero is an amusing buffoon until he gets out of one of her traps, and then start finding him amusing for his cleverness instead? What makes them equal, or nearly so?



Next rant is on nitpicking, from the looks of the poll.




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[info]autophanous
2005-03-17 01:26 am UTC (link)
Oh wow, GREAT rant. This came at the perfect time, since I'm working on my main villain right now.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:14 pm UTC

[info]kutsuwamushi
2005-03-17 01:26 am UTC (link)
6) Write from the villain’s POV.

My mind immediately leapt to A Song of Ice and Fire. I hated some of the characters in that book--but then Martin introduced their POV and I ended up, if not liking them, at least not hating them so much. He didn't even have to change the characters; he just had to put me closer to them.

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(no subject) - [info]evilprodigy, 2005-03-17 02:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ataniell93, 2005-03-17 02:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2005-03-17 02:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]alex_von_cercek, 2005-03-17 06:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:18 pm UTC

[info]silverthorne
2005-03-17 01:36 am UTC (link)
Love this post.

I haven't written much, but I used to design whole story arcs for RPGs...and one of my favorite NPC Villains was a man who dedicated days of time towards convincing one of the player characters that he really wasn't evil, but rather, was forced into working for 'the enemy'.

He essentially set up meetings, 'secret' correspondance that the PC could find, 'fights', and even a mock 'escape' attempt (that failed, of course) where he took the brunt of the 'punishment' for them both where she could see it happen. And of course, he used empathy, understanding, even parts of his actual life to convince her with. In other words, the man was human and humane to the cpative.

I managed to make him so convincing that the player forgot he was the villian for awhile. And the PC ended up leading the villain right into the camp.

*eg*

Some of the best villains are the ones you cannot tell from the good guys...

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 03:27 pm UTC

[info]inarticulate
2005-03-17 01:39 am UTC (link)
I have to admit that I don't write villains-- and I don't consider the main antagonist of my story to be a villain; she made a bad decision because she got greedy, and she has no way to back out of it, since she's really low on the chain of power. She believes in what she's doing, but she ultimately can't control the backlash. I tend to think of villains as antagonists who have control over their own lives and the lives of other people, and that's a situation that's really hard for me to make convincing with all the points you laid out. :/ I have a hard time making my villains LESS sympathetic; antagonists like my current one are easier because they can't backtrack or gloss things over, so I don't have to worry about making them sympathetic enough that theoretical readers would prefer them to the heroes. (I discovered this while writing last year's Nanonovel where I started to actively hate my protagonist because of the way he treated the villain-- as a villain.)

Then again, I have a hard time writing heroes who have lots of followers, too. Charisma? How does one write charisma?

I would love to do something with 5, though. Or just read it. Mmm. I love moral blurring of the lines.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2005-03-17 08:54 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]inarticulate, 2005-03-17 08:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 03:34 pm UTC

[info]sabotabby
2005-03-17 01:39 am UTC (link)
I always wonder about insane villains. I tend to feel bad for them. It's not exactly something they can help. Insanity is a piss-poor motivation as far as I'm concerned.

I had a fantasy novel to evaluate at work today, and I thought of you. In the sense that I'd like to have directed the author to every one of your rants.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:22 pm UTC

[info]blunder_buss
2005-03-17 01:54 am UTC (link)
1) For some reason, I think of Mr Fantastic and Dr Doom. In a way, they're similar because they're both geniuses who think knowledge can be used to change and better the world. They just disagree on what 'better' is. Doom wants to take over the world so he can make it a better place. And who can't empathise with that? Who hasn't dreamed of 'If I could rule the world' and think how they'd put the world right? And yet, you know it's wrong, because you're being a dictator? It's delicious and I love it. And I'm plotting to use it. Mooha.

4) Canonically, the main villian in my fanfics does this, and it's awesome to see it. He does always fail, but he always keeps coming up with even more devious and tricky plans for the heroes to overcome. He's so clever and crafty he has the heroes jump through hoops.

5) This also happens in canon, but it's never really done well. The hero and the villian want the same thing; they want equality between their race and humanity. They just have different ways to achieve that. But what is the 'right' way? Sure, the villian is staging a bloody rebellion, but haven't previous human groups done the very same thing? And while the hero is attempting his peaceful solution, his race will suffer until he does. And the longer this drags on, the more people will die, so why not join us? Join uusss ...

So yeah, there's a lot a mindfucking. Until the hero's friend gets killed, and then he's just too pissed off/emotionally exhausted to give a damn.

That's why I like the hero - he constantly asks himself if he's doing the right thing. One time he races into battle to defend innocents, another time he's trying diplomacy, another time he has a burnout and takes a quitter for a while.

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(no subject) - [info]aurorae90, 2005-03-17 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blunder_buss, 2005-03-17 04:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blunder_buss, 2005-03-17 09:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 03:40 pm UTC

[info]nextian
2005-03-17 02:07 am UTC (link)
I would just like to say that [info]erythros is possibly the only writer in the world who has created a set of semi-villians whose motivation is that one of them is deathly agoraphobic and cannot possibly leave so therefore must take POWER! In the castle! So he will never have to leave. It is so twisted and beautiful. (You knew this, [info]limyaael but everyone else didn't! Whee!)

On another note--I love mastermind villains, but too many authors assume they have to be unemotional, except for greed and hatred. If they find it too difficult to part one characteristic from the other, I’m all for the brash, too-quick, accidental villains to show up.

I think these are usually the rivals, though. You know, the designated "other one" that feels like the hero has been favored over him, the "other woman" who's been jilted in love, etc etc etc. Ad nauseam. I would ALWAYS rather have the carefully plotted, intricate webby villains, even without motivation, than those goddamned rivals who always make a crucial mistake in a fight with the hero, and who are just boring.

And yes, goddamit, I'm looking at you, canon-Draco-Malfoy. You start showing a tiny bit of WINNING and maybe I will respect you MORE.

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(no subject) - [info]evilprodigy, 2005-03-17 02:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]erythros, 2005-03-17 06:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 03:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]venusrain, 2008-01-23 01:35 am UTC

[info]jujang
2005-03-17 02:44 am UTC (link)
villain’s POV

This reminds me of this quote (I forgot which book). It was: Evil is just a point of view.

It's a good quote and a good rule that I always keep that in mind whenever I write my villains. They're not really evil without a good reason. Anytime I get into their shoes and think what they think, they seem like ordinary people to me because whatever reasons they had, I would had thought of the same reason too.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:24 pm UTC

[info]bookwormauthor
2005-03-17 03:06 am UTC (link)
"6. Write from the villain's POV." *cheers* Yes! So much fantasy would be improve by leaps and bounds if authors bothered to get into the heads of their villains and make them believable, real characters.

Of course, it can go backwards, too. I was working out a storyline once, and I got to what I thought was the final confrontation with the "villain," only to find out that he wasn't the villain at all; my POV character had been the villain all the time, leading the other MCs around on a wild goose chase to keep them from interfering as her fellow villains carried out their dastardly plot (which, of course, was The Right in her mind). Shocked the socks off me, too - she'd managed to fool me the whole time, as well as the other MCs.

5. This one backfired on me - I've got the MC of another story so convinced that the person everyone around him believes was a villain was his true friend that I don't know which it was anymore. Probably some of both. The other characters want to rehabilitate the MC, and it's not working, and I can't think of anything that *would* work. Rather awkward, since he's the only heir to the throne.

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[info]koh4711
2005-03-17 03:16 am UTC (link)
Give them motives that differ in degree rather than kind from the heroes’ motives.

One of the things I've liked exploring in my book is the idea that my hero and villain share the same prejudice. If you oversimplify, you could call Sheol a genocidal maniac, but I've spent a lot of time developing why he feels the course must be taken. But, what makes it more effective is, at one point, I actually have the hero think, "Maybe it's not a bad idea," because he has that same hatred. It was a trick I stole from Sam Raimi... making the villain a sort of mirror of the internal conflict of the hero. And it works.

Show the villain learning the same lesson as the hero, with different results.

This is actually the key to my sequel, if I get the chance to write it. Ultimately, the villain is going to travel a lot of the same paths as my hero, and they have a similar background, as well. But Owen makes one choice, and Sheol makes another, and it's what defines them. And, for my money, it's making Sheol one of my favorites to write.

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(no subject) - [info]wanderingbhikkh, 2005-03-17 06:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]koh4711, 2005-03-18 07:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:26 pm UTC

[info]quacker_z
2005-03-17 03:37 am UTC (link)
This was a very good rant on villains:) So many good points. I'll keep these in mind when I write my stories. It appears that a lot of authors tend to forget that the villain even HAS a POV. I get so annoyed when I see a villain appear as a cliche in a story(Yes, I know you want to destroy the Earth, but WHY? Where's your motivation?). It's just as important to develop a good villain, not just the hero! What I don't get is why the hero can be really emotionally complex, while the villain is just evil and that's all there is to him. For me, that ruins a good story. I want complex characters. Good and bad.

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muahahahaha - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-17 08:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-26 06:35 am UTC

[info]fadethecat
2005-03-17 03:58 am UTC (link)
Hrm. Marvelous advice on how to write interesting villains. Now if I could just manage to actually write villains to start with...

It's a ridiculous flaw in my writing, but there you go. I can't write villains. I write about characters doing things that other people, for one reason or another, might interfere with, but I have a serious problem coming up with a reason for someone else to be actively and specifically opposing them. Not very good for plots, that writing flaw.

Hmm. I don't suppose I could ask for a rant on how to have a villain in the first place? Maybe then I could solve that damn sticking point in my stuck fantasy novel, where I'm introducing a Villain about 50,000 words into the story and he's not really interested in the protagonist at all anyway and...gah. How do I get the villains in there, anyway?

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(no subject) - [info]jmeadows, 2005-03-17 04:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:29 pm UTC

[info]jmeadows
2005-03-17 04:40 am UTC (link)
Mm, loffly rant!

I love good villains. I love to feel sorry for them, get into their heads, learn why they oppose the hero. I'm right there with you on villains who are Evil because they want to Take Over The World. Why? Goodness, I daresay very few readers would be able to sympathize with that villain!

Is it too much to ask for a sympathetic villain? Apparently so. (Lackey comes to mind when I think about Terrible Villains and the reason I want to write villains people can fall in love with just like they can the heroes. :)

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(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-17 08:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmeadows, 2005-03-17 08:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-26 06:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]saadiira, 2005-03-17 11:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmeadows, 2005-03-17 11:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jmeadows, 2005-03-17 06:48 pm UTC

[info]darksylvia
2005-03-17 04:41 am UTC (link)
I am a big fan of villains who could almost be heros, if it weren't for their immoral motives and deeds.

The kind that you almost want to win, just because they're so deliciously evil. Tim Curry as Cardinal Richlieu in the Three Musketeers comes to mind, because he's a crafty, worthy, devious man with excellent lines.

I think this especially ties in with #7 because even though the Musketeers didn't respect HIM, per say, they respected his ruthlessness. They knew not to underestimate him.

Above all else, I hate stupid villains. Villains who could be beaten by a child because they're so transparent.

Also, I have an even more special spot for impulsive villains. Those sociopathic, high-IQ bastards who are so good at manipulating the hero.

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(no subject) - [info]goldjadeocean, 2005-03-17 05:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]darksylvia, 2005-03-17 07:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]saadiira, 2005-03-17 11:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]derringdo, 2005-03-17 09:12 pm UTC

[info]dwg
2005-03-17 04:56 am UTC (link)
Halfway through this rant, I just started laughing. You just described pretty much every facet of how I write villians.

I've pretty much been of the school that people don't do things because they are evil. They do things because they think they are right. It just happens that the things they do are evil to others. A person who believes that they are honestly doing the right thing tends to be far more frightening than one that cackles to him or herself about their evil little deeds.

Also, a villain that you can relate to, one that seems so...well, human in their flaws is the best one you can have. That's one of the best ways to seduce the hero and blur the lines of what's right, sane and good. It doesn't have to be a "Luke, come to the Dark Side," temptation, just a few small things at the right time to help resolve matters. Soon you'll find the small things add up and the hero is hopelessly entangled in something they never thought they could do, let alone enjoy.

Love, I've found, is never an excuse to have a villain see the error of their ways and dedicate their existence to helping little fuzzy animals and caring for children. If anything, it's a wonderful motivator to get even more evil. One of my characters is essentially a very decent man with honour and principles, and he's very much in love. She's turning into a great motivator to get him to finally step up and take some resonsibility for things, even if that means starting a bloody revolution.

I guess nobody expects the bad guy to feel these sorts of things, and when he, or she, or it, does, then it's just an added creep-factor fo the heros, because, nyah-ha! suddenly they're not "Evil, bad! Kill bad!" but a thinking, feeling person/creature.

Heh, maybe people should think of this as reverse-sociopathy. They say sociopaths look at their victims as little more than objects, the moment you start making them realise that it's a person then it's harder to tear them up. Bad guys are often portrayed as the sociopaths, and yet, it's the heros that view them as objects that need to be destroyed.

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(no subject) - [info]saadiira, 2005-03-17 11:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dwg, 2005-03-17 12:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]saadiira, 2005-03-18 11:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 03:57 pm UTC

[info]frenchpony
2005-03-17 05:08 am UTC (link)
O'Brien, Steerpike, and Grenouille. Those are villains. They should be held up in writing schools as Villains To Emulate.

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[info]goldjadeocean
2005-03-17 05:37 am UTC (link)
and the opposite side’s in his mind Typo?

I like villains. They're typically the most interesting characters in the story. Probably because in most of the books I read, the heroes want Goodness and Light and othere wishy-washy ethereal terms and I'm all, "Goodness and Light. Mmkay." And then the villain comes along and says, "I want land rights in Ailia for the Feanchean people and I want it NOW! Also, a chariot with purple cushions to ride around in" and I'm intrigued.

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(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-17 08:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-26 06:55 am UTC

[info]calenturian
2005-03-17 06:22 am UTC (link)
At the risk of sounding like a drooling fangirl, one of the things I'm really enjoying about the Ravenflower novels is that even the most horrible characters have motivations that make sense if you look at them in the right way. Which is rather unnerving sometimes (especially at the end of book 1. *shudder* I'm about two chapters into book 2 now).

Villains can be so much more interesting than heroes - they don't have to be constrained by the same moral code, so there are all sorts of cognitive dissonances you can play with. (Anti-heroes are probably much the same, but I don't get to see nearly enough of those.) Then there's the whole "Evil triumphs because Good is stupid" thing. But too often evil suffers because the writer is stupid.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:40 pm UTC

[info]wanderingbhikkh
2005-03-17 06:22 am UTC (link)
I'm having to dance this dance because my 'villain' (I tend to think of her more as an antagonist) is the main character's best friend. That's damn hard to write...you see the EX best friends often (Vicious/Spike from Cowboy Bebop, for instance) and the 'what the hell would you call that, hate or love or obsession?' (Javert/Valjean from Les Mis) but not a lot of "I still love you like a sister, but you are very, very wrong."

Especially not when that's a two-way street.

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(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-17 08:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wanderingbhikkh, 2005-03-17 10:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2005-03-17 09:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wanderingbhikkh, 2005-03-17 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2005-03-17 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-26 07:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]criada, 2005-03-26 08:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-29 06:12 am UTC

[info]xanath
2005-03-17 06:33 am UTC (link)
This one made me rethink the relationship between one of my villains and the hero. Thank you. :)

--Kris

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:40 pm UTC

[info]sarah_frost
2005-03-17 08:04 am UTC (link)
Beautiful rant. IMO, the only villains who should really be gloating over how evil they are are either completely batshit insane or the sort of immature poseur who likes to wear a lot of black. I especially like point number six: villains are people too!

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(no subject) - [info]onyxflame, 2006-03-13 04:08 pm UTC

[info]duckmole86
2005-03-17 08:49 am UTC (link)
I like to wear black. And I like villains. But I don't think it does me any good. People still think I'm a goody-two shoes. Sudden strange thought, but what does that make me? Besides utterly irritating? Don't answer that.

For subtle villainry tricks, I suggest C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters. He's got some interesting ideas that could make interesting plot points.

Dark fortress, telling the hero the dastardly plot before killing him... makes me think of Evil Harry. Pratchett. *Hysterical laughter*

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(no subject) - [info]duckmole86, 2005-03-17 08:50 am UTC

[info]rom65536
2005-03-17 09:23 am UTC (link)
So, I've had this story cooking in my head for a few years now, and I'm fearing that I can't do it the justice it deserves. The basic idea is "How 'bad' can you make the hero of the story and still make him the 'hero'?"

What kind of things can this person do? I mean...can he do "hitler-bad" kind of things, and the reader still like him?

The answser is "Sure - if the villain(s) deserves it".

I was afraid that the story of Anakin Skywalker's turning to the dark side of the force in episods I, II, and III of Star Wars would beat me to the punch....but two out of three have sucked, and my hopes aren't too high for the third one.


Then I read this rant and asked myself "What if the 'villain(s)' don't deserve it?"

Dammit! Now I have to re-think 8 years of plotting for the story....

Thanks! It will make the story better than ever.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:41 pm UTC

[info]otakukeith
2005-03-17 10:56 am UTC (link)
She gives them motives that clash too strongly with modern morals for any readers to be on their side. She makes them insane, which by now is trite, and insists that they don’t have to make sense. She might not even bother explaining why he wants the world, sometimes, or how he could have made progress towards his goal with everyone in the world hating him.

This is a big problem with a lot of Dark Lords. They're the embodiment of evil, no-one really wants them to win unless they're totally stupid. So where do they get those vast Legions of Terror? What happens, of course, is that the author has to create a bunch of nonhuman creatures who are all nasty and evil, and who all serve the Dark Lord but never think of double-crossing him or going off on their own. The svarts and urgach in Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionavar Tapestry are a good example of this - they have no personality whatsoever outside of serving Rakoth, they don't even seem to have a homeland. Tolkien had the good sense to give Sauron and Melkor human and Maiar servants as well, and give the orcs a bit of character and independent desire.

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(no subject) - [info]limyaael, 2005-03-17 05:43 pm UTC
Awesome rant. (I clicked it to favorites.)
[info]saadiira
2005-03-17 11:50 am UTC (link)
5-HELL yes. I did a professional submission where I did this. What happens when your childhood love for whom you've been searching, so as to rescue, turns out to have turned completely to the dark side (In this given world)? Then sets about attempting to seduce you?

Empathic, learning, POV and respect. Oh heck yes. Please.

I really love the movie The Mummy because the motive for bringing about Armageddon, essentially, is love. It's so easy to feel bad for the doomed lovers, no matter what they do, if you look at it from the point of view that it all started out because she was sexual slave to a powerful man, and another loved her. And that the love has lasted 3,000 years. Yet, they do such HORRIBLE things...

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