Limyaael ([info]limyaael) wrote,
@ 2004-05-17 12:01:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Current music:Aeone- Deliverance
Entry tags:fantasy rants: spring 2004, rants on angst

Rant on abuse of abused characters.
This was inspired by trying to read Diana Pharoah Francis’s Path of Fate last night, which I won’t be finishing. It’s an excellent lesson in how not to begin a fantasy book. In six pages, we have angsty monologues, plucky!orphaned!heroine, infodumps, “As you know, Bob…” conversations, and the bully who, of course, only exists to make the heroine’s life miserable. The bully makes even less sense in context, since he’s apparently been chosen to be part of an order of good people.

Blecch.



1) Here comes the Frozen Psychology again. It doesn’t matter how long ago the abuse happened, or how severe it was (though for quite a lot of fantasy protagonists it was severe), or what kind it was, or who committed it. I can assure you that 90% of the time the protagonist is still as traumatized as if it had happened yesterday. This could be an interesting indication of fairly deep psychological wounds. I could enjoy reading a fantasy that involved a recovery from those wounds.

But not a whole lot of fantasy writers can write recovery. (It’s much easier to write despair and angst than eucatastrophe and evangelium for most people, which I’ll get to further down the list). Instead, they freeze the heroine’s mind for twenty years, so that at thirty-five she’s still the traumatized fifteen-year-old, and then suddenly throw her into some situation that's supposed to heal her, like getting a new love or going on a quest. And it always works. Why has nothing worked up until now? Why didn’t time soften the wounds at all? Why has the heroine made no attempt to help herself? (See point 2). Who knows? The author writing this tripe certainly doesn’t.

Trauma shouldn’t be switched on and off like that. If you have an extraordinarily sensitive character, fine, although I’d like to see this sensitivity portrayed in other ways than the response to abuse; quite a lot of abused characters aren’t very compassionate, altruistic, empathetic, or perceptive, so I wonder why they have such hair-triggers for abuse. But that very sensitive person shouldn’t heal after a few weeks of sexually-tinged bickering followed by an, “I love you!” If nothing has worked so far, why does love? I’d like to see some damn reasoning behind it.

Lately I’ve started to skim the parts where the character reminiscences about being abused, or just put down the book.

2) A suffering character inspires tears and pity, but not a whole lot else. Say you have your heroine. She has powerful magic that no one in the family line has, and her father hates her for that because it was supposed to go to her brother. So he beats her and makes her do all the chores and takes away her wolf puppy when he finds it. (My god, I almost put myself to sleep writing that). How is your reader going to feel about her?

Well, I’d pity her. I might cry for her if the writer was skilled enough in portraying pain. But I’d wonder why she didn’t just use that powerful magic to fight back. I’d wonder why she didn’t run away, if life at home was that intolerable and if she could trust that someone else would want to hire or train her for her gifts. I’d wonder why she doesn’t try to appeal to someone else, a neighbor or a family member, for help. Those people are often shown as standing around and going, “Awww!” but not helping. What’s the use of them?

In a way, the abused heroine is just a new variation on the helpless princess who sits in her tower waiting for the prince to come rescue her. I’ve heard numerous people deprecate the tale of Rapunzel because why didn’t she just climb down her own hair, the silly girl? The abused heroine is similar, a lot of the time. She’s meant to make me cheer for her, but it’s really difficult when I can see half a dozen ways out of her situation and she just sits there, waiting for the powerful mage to come along and rescue her, or the goddess to choose her, or the animal companion to insist that she’s special and has to get away from there. Consider giving her some strength of will of her own, some courage, some good traits besides being prettily horrified. Show me why I should cheer for her.

3) Most fantasy authors misjudge the scale of the abuse. They go too far one way or the other. On the minor side (this sounded on its way to happening with the Francis book), there are characters who can suffer taunting for years and still burst into tears in front of the taunters. I honestly don’t understand. Is there a person alive that thin-skinned? The people I knew who got teased worst in high school at least learned not to burst out crying in front of the bullies, however much they cried in private. And there were people who developed coping strategies, from ignoring them to fighting with them to taunting them back. Why do none of these coping strategies ever occur to fantasy teenagers? When the author introduces melodramatic responses to the slightest imposition on Miss Dreams-But-Can’t-Work’s lifestyle, then I start taking the story a lot less seriously.

On the major side, the author introduces a character who was beaten by her mother. And raped by her father. And had her teddy bear ripped apart. And who was neglected. And whose beloved brother died trying to protect her. And whose uncle starved her. And whose sister died in a fire for which the character blames herself. And whose magic was weak enough to get her teased by the other children in the mage school. And who was tortured by the bad guys. The author is screaming at me, insisting, “This character is in such pain that you can’t even imagine it!”

Yes. Exactly.

Increase the pain too much, and my imaginative connection with the character snaps. She becomes a blank to me, just a body for the author to heap fictional torture on. I don’t feel about her the same way I do about a victim of atrocities in the real world, because the author has reminded me that it’s all make-believe; the only reason this person is suffering so much is because the author wants her to. You could call it numbness or shock, I suppose, but it resembles indifference too much to escape that name for me. I just don’t care any more about what happens to this person, because the pain has gotten ridiculous.

At some point, authors need to rein back the abuse and torture, and ask themselves when the character is going to achieve anything. If she’s not, if her mind’s going to break and she’ll die, that’s one thing. But if the character has no death and no victory, just suffering, what the hell is she doing blocking my view of more interesting people?

4) Abuse shoots the characterization of other people all to hell. There are the bullies, of course, and the parents. With the exception of a very few authors, I no longer read fantasy books where the main characters are teenagers, because I’d like to at least imagine that all the characters are complex and real people, and the author doesn’t allow me to imagine that about the teenager’s parents. They are Horrible, Horrible, Horrible. And it’s the narrative, not the character, telling me this.

There’s a reason that I am Not a Fan of the omniscient voice, the characters that are created only to watch the scenery and have no thoughts or personalities of their own, or narrators whose perceptions are identical to reality (a.k.a Canon Mary Sues). When I start reading a book, I take the viewpoint character as the hero automatically, or my favorite of the viewpoint characters. It really doesn’t matter if someone else is supposed to be more important to the story. My reading mind doesn’t work that way. It will transform the viewpoint character into the hero, if necessary. The person whose thoughts I’m sharing is the important one—and, I naturally assume, intriguing, complex, and fallible.. If for some reason I can’t bond with the viewpoint character, I try with a minor one (and if that doesn’t succeed, I put the book down). But there has to be, for me at least, some doubt. Things might look a certain way to a certain character, but they need not be actually so.

In fantasies with abused main characters, it usually isn’t the character who tells me something about the abusers; it’s the narrative. These people are “horrible,” “malicious,” or “disgusting,” and it’s the author telling me so. I’m not allowed to make up my own mind. There is no possibility that these people are abusing the main character because of abuse in their own childhoods (which would actually make sense if the author is following Earth psychology), that they don’t see it as abuse at all, that they’re doing it for religious reasons, or that there’s some other perspective that that would make them continue the abuse. They’re “really” doing it out of the jealousy and hatred that the protagonist usually imagines to be the ‘why.’ The author sacrifices characterization for the sake of abuse. I find it boring and mediocre.

There’s also the characterization of the people who moan about the abused character’s suffering but don’t actually attempt to help. Either they’re all cowards or they’re all completely unobservant or they’re under the pay of the abuser. Really? Everyone in the entire village/city/country? It’s laughable, but it’s the fiction the author has to maintain if she just wants the character to suffer, and other people to be in the know and not do anything, which it seems the author does want most of the time. I don’t comprehend it, but there you go.

The people who come in from the outside and rescue the abused character are sometimes slightly better, but for me the ‘abuse discovered and revenged’ plot is like the arranged marriage plot. There are only so many ways you can do the sucker, and most of the interesting variations have already been written. Is it really all that interesting to write about what happens when someone discovers abuse? I’m much more interested in the heroine getting back some sense of control over her life and dealing with the memories—or, at least, I would be if I could find some fantasies that spent more time on that than on the traumatic memories.

5) Angst and abuse are easy. I’ve ranted before about how abuse is an easy trauma to make a character suffer. Everyone knows what they think about it, it doesn’t implicate the character as at blame or at fault in any way, and a lot of readers seem willing to accept that all by itself, it can define a fantasy protagonist. Struggling to make your heroine seem real? You don’t have to! Introduce some physical abuse, and suddenly everyone’s prepared to accept her as The Brave Heroine.

The problem is that it’s easy to write angst of this kind. It’s Diet Coke angst, or it’s the author working out her own problems (which should be done in diaries and therapy, not in a fantasy book where everyone can identify her issues with a glance). It’s also easy to write a cheesy happy ending from it, the kind that most authors go for, where everyone is miraculously healed and married and resurrected. It’s desperately difficult to take this kind of beginning and get any joy from it, though.

I would like to see more joy in fantasy—and, for that matter, more true tragedy and despair, rather than angst. Fantasy has a grand excuse for using the depths and the heights of emotion, in a way that would become infected with cynicism and irony if the author tried it in most other genres. What Tolkien called “eucatastrophe,” the absolutely triumphant ending, and evangelium, the joy “as poignant as grief,” are the heritage of fantasy, too. And in the traditions of epics, sagas, and things of that kind, there’s far more ground for passion than there is for writing angst that is indistinguishable from angst in a mainstream novel or a “dark” fanfic.



Strange how there are authors I will let get away with anything, even melodrama (like Kay and Martin), as long as they show that the suffering the characters go through is not the only thing that matters.




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[info]troubadour118
2004-05-17 09:25 am UTC (link)
I would like to see more joy in fantasy - and, for that matter, more true tragedy and despair, rather than angst.

Verily doth I proclaim: Read. Steven. Eriskon. You will find no other fantasy - Kay and Martin included - that so skillfully plumbs the depths of human despair and epic tragedy as well as daring to rise to the unconventional, almost unimaginable pinnacle of the ultimate triumphant redemption. Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice - Books Two and Three, respectively - had me bawling at the end.

*ceases badgering you*

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 09:38 am UTC (link)
I solemnly swear to order the first book when it becomes available. I swear by Al-Rassan. /melodrama

June 1st, you said?

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[info]troubadour118
2004-05-17 09:44 am UTC (link)
Yep! Gardens of the Moon. It's a light read in comparison to the other books in the series (which isn't really saying anything, it's still 600+ pages and entertainingly convoluted). At Erikson's own admission, Gardens began as an experiment to deconstruct fantasy stereotypes in a serious, non-satirical manner. For that alone, you should enjoy it.

He also spent six years researching and creating the histories, mythologies, and languages behind this series. The detail-oriented reader in you should rejoice. (Especially since the discovery of all this information is very gradual. Rarely an infodump in sight).

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[info]otakukeith
2004-05-17 09:50 am UTC (link)
I've just started reading the first book after reading about it here - probably one of your recommendations, actually. So far I'm slightly confused and wallowing in a lot of weird names and concepts, but the main characters seem pretty good.

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[info]troubadour118
2004-05-17 10:00 am UTC (link)
Yeah, it's confusing at first because of Erikson's style. He dumps you into the middle of the story and rarely infodumps by way of explanation for the reader. But I like it that way. It feels more like I'm discovering the truths and hierarchies of the world as I go along, rather than having them explained to me.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-05-17 10:24 am UTC (link)
Yes, I agree - given how much stuff there clearly is, it would be exhausting to have it all dumped on my head straight away. One thing I could really do with is a complete map of the world so I can understand how all the different locations relate to each other.

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[info]mhari
2004-05-17 09:28 am UTC (link)
Melodrama is fun - when done well.

I still have to read Martin, but the nice thing about Kay is that all the misery advances the plot. There are no atrocities thrown in just for the sheer bloody hell of it.

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 09:38 am UTC (link)
*thwacks you over the head* Go read Martin!

And yes, yes, yes with Kay. I never get the impression that he's making characters lose their loves or their lives or their countries just so he can make readers say, "Awww!" In fact, when his main characters have horrible childhoods, the first thing they do is something about it. (I'm thinking particularly of Blaise in A Song for Arbonne. He doesn't just sit home and think, "Woe!" about his horrible father; he leaves and makes a life for himself outside his father's influence. That he turns out not to be as far away as he thought isn't his fault).

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[info]mhari
2004-05-17 09:49 am UTC (link)
Yep! And Alessan and his friends are proactive to a fault in Tigana. *g*

Though I actually don't mind characters who sit around going "WOE" as long as a) it's not presented as virtue on their part and b) they eventually do something else.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-05-17 09:58 am UTC (link)
The Tigana characters are wonderfully ingenious and resourceful - well, except when they're getting randomly paired off at the end. Bad Kay. Bad.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-05-17 09:56 am UTC (link)
"Diet Coke angst" - wonderful phrase. :D

On the uncharacterized abusers: it occurred to me while reading that George RR Martin has at least one character like this: Gregor Clegane. He's a horrible, obnoxious, monstrous individual who rapes. pillages and kills at every possible opportunity, and we're never given any obvious motivation for him to do this other than his being an evil SOB. But then I realised that Martin doesn't hammer this into our heads as gospel truth: he describes Gregor through the characters' eyes and words, shows a lot of his deeds 'onscreen' and so forth. And of course, Gregor has a plausible reason for getting away with it and no idiots standing about wringing their hands for no obvious reason: he's a noble and can do what he likes on his own lands or when he's campaigning under his liege lord's command - and Tywin Lannister is a merciless bastard who uses Gregor as a tool to frighten and destroy (in case this isn't obvious, I hate Tywin with a murderous passion, probably because he's so cold and calculating - he doesn't seem to take joy in anything at all).

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[info]kutsuwamushi
2004-05-17 10:33 am UTC (link)
Martin tricked me into not hating Tywin by making everyone else around him even more detestable. Like Cersei. *SHUDDER*

If he had been surrounded by more likable characters, I probably would have hated him, too.

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 10:55 am UTC (link)
There WILL be a Cersei POV in the next book. I am terrified that after reading it I won't be able to hate her any more, because I can't despise Jaime now. And hating Cersei is so satisfying. *sob*

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[info]erythros
2004-05-17 11:07 am UTC (link)
I don't know - I bet I could still hate Cersei even after seeing her in her own eyes. She's just so DUMB and self-congratulatory! And she has hideous taste in people, too.

I CAN AND I WILL! [/ornery and willful]

t

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 01:28 pm UTC (link)
*eyes you*

Whenver book four comes out (am I the only one who simultaneously understands and is patient and yet wants to tie Martin to the computer until he gets it done?), I will want you to make a post on whether you honestly still hate Cersei or not. Must be honest. No cheating.

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[info]erythros
2004-05-17 02:05 pm UTC (link)
*cheerfully* You forget that I manage to hate Arya STANDING ON MY _HEAD_ and we've had her viewpoint for three whole books!

But certainly. I shall post with great humility and honesty, confessing my new understanding and liking of Cer - *gags too hard to finish*

t

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 03:08 pm UTC (link)
And I manage to not understand your hate of Arya standing on my head.

Ah, well. To each their own.

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[info]starfishofelves
2004-05-17 03:46 pm UTC (link)
And I have no idea who Arya is, but I now see her standing on your head while [info]erythros hates her.

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[info]erythros
2004-05-17 04:08 pm UTC (link)
Ah, well, I overstate the case. I don't like Arya -as-well-as- I like most of the other characters. I did very much like Arya when she was still a normal if tomboyish little girl - she's beginning to SCARE me now, though, since she doesn't seem to like _anything_ that is not killing, or Needle, or Jon. She's funnelling into a wild-eyed hating little survivalist, and it horrifies me because it's plausible, and that makes me QUAIL.

Moreover, ... ... when I was small, I was a total Sansa spoiled-pretty-little-princess-child, and I vividly remember the tomboy-Arya-sorts punching me at recess.

I don't _hate_ Arya. I just don't enjoy her as much as I enjoy the rest of the gang. (Plus it's mildly amusing getting gasps of horror - "You don't like Arya? OMG WTF YU SUK." - from people who are not as shrugsome about differing opinions as you are.)

t

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[info]otakukeith
2004-05-17 11:45 am UTC (link)
Hear, hear. Some people still hate Jaime even after seeing his POV and I can see their point, actually - he's done some pretty unpleasant things besides boinking Cersei and killing Aerys (the best thing he's ever done, IMO). So it's clearly possible.

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 01:30 pm UTC (link)
I would be less worried if not for the fact that he hadn't already done it to me with Jaime, and that, as I said in the post, my mind works that way; put me into the viewpoint of a character and even though I might not start thinking they're right, I'll still understand.

Martin could make me understand Cersei, I'm afraid. I just don't wanna. *whines*

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[info]kutsuwamushi
2004-05-17 02:35 pm UTC (link)
Maybe the POV will consist of her going "AAAAAAAAAAARGH!" as someone pushes her out of a tower window.

*hopeful*

As Jaime pushes her out of a tower window...

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 03:07 pm UTC (link)
She apparently has at least one fairly extensive chapter, so 'fraid not. On the other hand, there are hints that her uncle (damn it, I cannot remember his name; I think it started with a K) will become the center of power in the kingdoms and not Cersei.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-05-17 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Kevan, I think you mean. Seems unlikely - he's kind of Tywin Lite, he always did as his brother said reliably, but didn't have much drive or initiative. Still, from spoilers I believe he becomes King's Hand in the next book, so it may be that he'll rise to the position.

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[info]jordan179
2007-05-15 04:46 pm UTC (link)
There really are some people who are Just Plain Evil, or (to use the current terminology) psychopathic or sociopathic. When I read the Martin books, and saw Gregor, my immediate thought was "sociopath, perhaps deriving from inadequate or negative early socialization." I can easily believe that some people like that would exist, and that ruthless tyrants would collect them as useful tools. They do in real lfe, after all ... look at Stalin and his various NKVD chiefs, or Hitler and Himmler.

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[info]illian
2004-05-17 10:33 am UTC (link)
I rather thought was going to be your reaction to the book. *sigh* Well, there's another promising book down the tubes.

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 01:31 pm UTC (link)
It would probably help if I were a less linear reader, but fortunately or unfortunately, the author has only one chance to hook me. If the beginning is boring or doesn't catch my interest, then I'm unlikely to read any further.

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[info]merditha
2004-05-17 10:49 am UTC (link)
Increase the pain too much, and my imaginative connection with the character snaps. She becomes a blank to me, just a body for the author to heap fictional torture on.

::g:: I never did it consciously, but like so many things that sort of moved into the back of my brain and went "well what if you could do it properly?"

I'm really reminded of Kay's point on Bad Writing. This issue in particular really comes down whether or not the author can pull it off. Because, of course, if the author can heap on abuse after abuse after abuse and still make you feel it . . . .::palmsup:: For me personally, JKR manages it. Who else - ah, Pratchett, oddly. I don't tend to like to lj-namedrop, particularly of friends, for fear of being accused of partisanship, but [info]klgaffney breaks my heart into tiny little pieces on a regular basis.

And conversely, far too often I see a badly done eucatastrophic moment, which I loathe. Eucatastrophy is nice, but you have to earn it. And it's not the end answer. Having had the moments in my own life, it's a lovely thing - there's the epiphany, there's the moment where everything makes sense and it's all good and you cry and it's cleansing and you're healed! . . . except, not. Because you still have to go through today and tomorrow and the next day and not go back down to where you were doing the self-destructive things and living in your wounding. ::shrug::

It's all in the skill of the writing.

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 01:41 pm UTC (link)
Well, if the author is skilled enough, the question of the character being an imaginative blank is unlikely to emerge in the first place. I felt that way with Seyonne in Carol Berg's Rai-kirah trilogy; despite all he suffered, I never stopped caring. At the same time, I admire more the author who can do "wonders with nothing," who takes a character and makes him deeply complex and intriguing yet still without a terribly abusive background, as compared to the author who has to pile on "interesting" abuse.

For me personally, JKR manages it.

She does for me too, but by understatement and shock value. You can see Harry as suffering from abuse and neglect, but he doesn't brood on and on about it (fanfic writers do that instead). This makes it more effective than yet another monologue on how horrible the Dursleys are. Also, because we didn't know who was going to die in Book 5, it wasn't as though Harry had some kind of DOOM hanging over his head. If someone he cared for had died in every book so far, it would have been much more boring.

And conversely, far too often I see a badly done eucatastrophic moment, which I loathe.

I don't think of those moments as eucatastrophe at all, since by definition for me eucatastrophe has to be deep and moving. If the author doesn't achieve it, I might be bored or think eucatastrophe beyond her abilities, but I don't give up on the notion altogether.

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[info]feathered
2005-04-29 02:02 am UTC (link)
Hmmm, I actually stopped caring about Seyonne quite a bit throughout the second book. I skimmed a lot of the middle part, when he is in the pits, because all he'd suffered was just too much and I was getting tired of all of his rebuilding sessions.

And then the rai-kirah were interesting and unusual and my interest was recaptured. I'm on the third book now and I really hope there's no more torture-Seyonne scenes because I really don't care. I'm a tiny bit curious as to why you love the trilogy so much. I like it and am glad I'm reading it, and I think that Berg could be really excellent, but some of the habits of her characters annoy me to the point where I have to put the book down, and she has a serious case of downtrodden hero syndrome.

The whole abuse thing is probably one I'm pickiest about when I read. Both sides of my family have had generation-spanning abuse, so I've seen and experienced its effects firsthand. If it's written well, abuse in books can utterly break my heart, but most of the time the unrealistic reactions just make me furious. I really think that the whole wallowing and clinging-to and refusing to get over abuse is one of the things that makes it so cyclical in families. The trend to write characters who spend years trapped in their angst and woe only to suddenly get better is so stupid. In my experience, getting over it takes a desire to change and break the patterns. Change is fucking hard, and it doesn't come about from sitting around cringing and weeping.

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[info]ataniell93
2004-05-17 12:35 pm UTC (link)
Why I hate the Lackwit. Only said in detail and 2000 times better than I could.

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 01:42 pm UTC (link)
*blush* Thank you! Mercedes Lackey is one of those authors I devoured like candy when I was a teenager, tried to reread as an adult, and thought, "...What kind of crack was I ON?"

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[info]ataniell93
2004-05-17 02:02 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. I was 24 when her first novel came out so I have never been able to get it. I think I read 4 of her books and then stopped.

BTW, the counterbalance to the Abused Heroine (because even if he's male, a character like this is an Abused Heroine--I don't know too many guys who angst in quite that way) is the cheap trick of having your villain commit an ugly sex crime and then exempting yourself from the necessity of ever explaining why his side of the story is Teh Evil.

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 03:06 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. I was 24 when her first novel came out so I have never been able to get it. I think I read 4 of her books and then stopped.

I read a fair part of the Valdemar series and a few of the fairy-tale retellings; there's one called Firebird I still reread because it has an abused hero who actually does something about the abuse. But I've avoided everything of hers for some years now.

(because even if he's male, a character like this is an Abused Heroine--I don't know too many guys who angst in quite that way)

Bing bing bing! Vanyel.

is the cheap trick of having your villain commit an ugly sex crime and then exempting yourself from the necessity of ever explaining why his side of the story is Teh Evil.

Bing bing bing! Terry Goodkind. After an extremely graphic scene of his villain (Darken Rahl, one of the stupidest names in the history of fantasy) raping and disemboweling little children, I lost any sense that this might possibly be an interesting character.

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[info]otakukeith
2004-05-17 02:33 pm UTC (link)
I suspect I'd be that way if I tried to read Anne McCaffrey now. *hides under rock* Luckily, I avoided most of the fantasy genre for much of my life because I had no clue what was good and what was a crappy Tolkien ripoff or just crap. Now I have people like you to make recommendations for me. :D

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[info]wireandroses
2004-06-09 12:00 pm UTC (link)
heh, i think candy's exactly what her books are. i like to read them when i'm home sick, so my brain doesn't have to work too hard and i know no matter how long ago i read it i'll still know exactly what's going to happen.

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[info]avrelia
2004-05-17 12:58 pm UTC (link)
I noticed how hard it became for me to read books, especially fantasy lately. I've grown into a nasty, demanding reader. Not that I could tolerate a poorly-written book before, but now I have a lists of authors' misdeeds, so I often checking them in my mind, adding or distracting points for the overcoming the challenges of falling into the traps. Now, a really good book makes me forget these lists (along with everything else).

because the pain has gotten ridiculous.

Exactly. I don't understand angst for the sake of angst. Characters in pain make for a powerful story – until a certain point, where my suspension of disbelieve doesn't hold anymore and I laugh at the poor abused baby.

that there’s some other perspective that that would make them continue the abuse.

Or, may be, you know, they are the good side, and the abused heroine is actually an Evil Monster. ;)

Also, agree to everything else, especially the last bit:
I would like to see more joy in fantasy—and, for that matter, more true tragedy and despair, rather than angst. Fantasy has a grand excuse for using the depths and the heights of emotion, in a way that would become infected with cynicism and irony if the author tried it in most other genres.

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[info]limyaael
2004-05-17 01:45 pm UTC (link)
I'm so behind on books by authors I adore that I'll have good reading material to keep me occupied for a while. After that, I'll try new authors again. I think what happens with me is that, if the author can ease me past the beginning and give me a halfway sympathetic character to ride with, then I'll read the book, though I might not like it all that much. That was what happened with Patricia McKillip's book. It was readable, just not something to be adored.

Exactly. I don't understand angst for the sake of angst. Characters in pain make for a powerful story – until a certain point, where my suspension of disbelieve doesn't hold anymore and I laugh at the poor abused baby.

Understood and agreed! I remember reading an amateur fantasy story where the heroine was regularly beaten by her evil uncle. She woke up from a beating, and the author spent a full paragraph detailing every single bone that was cracked. And then she stood up and walked with two broken legs.

You have to laugh, or you cry.

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[info]starfishofelves
2004-05-17 03:57 pm UTC (link)
Angsty characters were the reason I Did Not Like the Thomas Covenant series. (that and Lord Foul. That is teh st00pid name for a villain.) Every time Linden opened her mouth to talk about how her father had committed suicide while she was locked in the room with him, and how he blamed her for it, or how she killed her mother, I wanted to throw the book across the room. She did this mostly through the mantra of "You never loved me anyway," which were her father's last words and which she repeated in italics every few pages.

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[info]onyxflame
2006-02-23 04:09 am UTC (link)
Yurgh. I managed to force myself to read both series, but ye gods. Not only was the "hero" a whiny asshole, the author used so many words I didn't know that I eventually just gave up looking them up in the dictionary, heh. (The world was mostly cool, but this was the one time I didn't care, heh.)

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[info]lynnbodoni
2004-05-17 11:51 pm UTC (link)
On the minor side (this sounded on its way to happening with the Francis book), there are characters who can suffer taunting for years and still burst into tears in front of the taunters. I honestly don’t understand. Is there a person alive that thin-skinned?

I was, until I was medicated with antidepressants. So in addition to getting taunted for other reasons, I was taunted because I made such an easy target.

I STILL break into tears at the age of 46 for any reason or no reason. I've been told that this is just part of my brain's biochemistry by more than one psychiatrist (and I do mean the guys with the M.D.s after their names). This is a large part of why I stay in my house for weeks at a time, not even setting foot outside my front porch. I am much, much better than I used to be, but I am not and probably never will be really emotionally stable.

However, I would probably make a lousy fantasy heroine. Or any sort of heroine. Maybe I could be the half-mad hedge witch, though. I've got the half-mad part down cold, even WITH meds.

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#4
[info]nobodys_grrl
2004-05-18 02:28 pm UTC (link)
OK, as someone who is writing a character who is a) a teenager and b) the victim of emotional abuse, what is the difference between telling it as the character, and telling it as narration and therefore truth? How do you show the difference? I'm asking because this character has very strong views about his father (the perpetrator of the abuse), which don't necessarily reflect the entire truth. I intend to write from the father's POV and introduce him as a more important character later on, but until then how can I show that I'm writing what the character believes?

All I want is for this character to not be the abused!Angsty!Teen!Mary Sue. On top of everything else.

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Re: #4
[info]limyaael
2004-05-18 08:47 pm UTC (link)
I define it as the difference between:

"He's so terrible! I hate him, I hate him, I hate him!" she thought viciously.

and

Serai had lived with her father all her life. From dawn until dusk, he abused her. He was a malicious man, and afraid of himself, but he didn't know that. He just knew that he liked abusing his daughter.

In the first one, we're in the character's thoughts. In the second, it's definitely narrative (or it couldn't tell me things the character himself doesn't know). It allows for no idea that anything could be any different. I've noticed that many authors who write abused characters have a tendency to shift into omniscient when describing the abusers, evne if the rest of the book is in third-person. They also tend to use language that it's very hard to imagine the abuser using of himself. Most villains wouldn't think "I am evil!" And I think very rare would be the abusive father who would think of what he was doing as abuse.

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Re: #4
[info]nobodys_grrl
2004-05-19 07:55 am UTC (link)
OK thanks for that, it definitely helps.

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Re: #4
[info]onyxflame
2006-02-23 04:25 am UTC (link)
Having known several abusers in my life (mostly sexual and emotional abuse, but not directed at me), I don't know if I could ever write a story involving one. I mean, one of them I could translate into the story exactly as he actually acted, and all the readers would go "no one's THAT evil"...but he sure seemed like it. And I still haven't figured out WHY they were that way, how they could've thought what they were doing was right or good or justified. It's just totally beyond my comprehension.

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[info]amber_oak
2004-05-20 02:13 pm UTC (link)
One of the reasons I enjoyed The Silmarillion so much was that bad things happened to our heros and they didn't go whine about it.

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[info]mypsychoticself
2006-10-18 12:30 am UTC (link)
Have you read Lamb: The Gospel According to Biff? Or The Collector, by Fowler? Good, fallible characters.

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