Paul Dini ([info]kingofbreakfast) wrote,
@ 2005-07-24 12:49:00
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Current mood: unimpressed

I saw the new screen version of CHARLIE AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY and didn't like it much. Though the filmmakers insisted they were keeping closer to Roald Dahl's original book than the 1971 film, they forgot one key fact -- the same one the first flick's creators ignored. In the book Willy Wonka is an old man, sort of an aged sprite if I remember correctly. At least that's my memory of Wonka's statue in London's Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum, which was based on illustrations from the book's first printing. As people over forty have been banned by current Hollywood from appearing in movies as anything other than parental stooges, background action or occassionally, villains, hiring an actual septugenarian to play Wonka was, of course, out of the question. To suggest that Wonka be portrayed as the Yoda-like imp he was in the book, indeed, to suggest he be shown as anything other than a perpetual youth is tantamount to blasphemy. I can hear the studio execs now: "We've got kids coming to see this flick for god's sake! It's bad enough they have to endure that old fart Santa Claus once a year, let's not make Wonka a codger, too!"

I remember as a kid raising an eyebrow at the youth of Gene Wilder as Wonka in the first movie, but I wound up embracing the character anyway. There seemed to be a playful wisdom at work behind everything Wonka did, as if he not only somehow secretly handpicked each of the Golden Ticket winners but spent hours devising traps (and thereby sobering life lessons) for them. Wilder's Wonka seemed like an adult who had never lost a child's perspective of adults, and therefore knew how to skillfully parody them while walking among them. He dressed in the clothes a child might choose to give himself an air of wealth and worldiness among grown-ups, and even spoke to them on a semi-intellectual level until it dawned on the mystified adults that what they heard was an earful of nonsense and veiled insults. Yet Wilder also made Wonka an obsessive workaholic who saw human relationships as an impediment to his creative genius. It wasn't that Wilder's Wonka disliked children (though he clearly didn't care for the four out of five he invited in) but he had simply created a world where he had no time to have any kids of his own.

I bought that Gene Wilder's workaholic Wonka, as well as his aged counterpart in Dahl's book, had sacrificed family to follow their candy-coated muses and wound up, in part, regretting their choices. An old man looks back on his life and mourns that he has no family. Hence the elderly Wonka's search for an heir has gravity. Johnny Depp, on the other hand, with his Bettie Page bob, perfect teeth, ivory skin and Marilyn Manson fop attire, looks thirty, tops. If the latest Forbes poll of fictional wealthy characters can be believed, Willy Wonka ranks alongside Santa Claus and Scrooge McDuck as one of the world's richest individuals. So given that the new, impoved Wonka has money, looks and youth, what's keeping him from scoring a babe? He's too screwed up to get himself a wife or even adopt a kid as a single parent? Hell, if Bruce Wayne can do it...

An old shut-in giving out golden tickets as one last bid for immortality I buy, at least in the context of Dahl's original. But the idea of a young and we assume, virile Wonka not even attempting to forge a relationship in order to secure an heir I find harder to swallow than one of his own everlasting gobstoppers.

I also find fault with Wonka "re-imagined" not as someone who is in supreme control of his self-created world but a clueless prisoner of it. In the new film I never got the idea that Wonka was particularly smart or that he was always several paces in front of the other characters, which he always is in the book. His best scene comes early in the picture, in a flashback where Wonka shares a bit of chocolate-making magic with his then-employee, Charlie's Grandpa Joe. Sadly that bit of happy interplay is missing from the rest of the picture. Watching Depp smile like a Jerry Mahoney dummy and say "'Kay" or "that's weird" to the actions going on around him made him seem like he never knows what is going on in his own factory, nor does he really care. He seems like a pampered, sequestered celebrity who has been one from birth, so detatched from common folks that his reactions to the mishaps befalling his young visitors barely warrants a shrug. Nothing wrong with that if that was part of Wonka's put-on, but I got the idea he truly didn't care about anyone but himself and actively enjoyed torturing the five kids.

Which begs the question, why did Depp's Wonka want to give away his candy factory to a child in the first place? It's clear from the outset he hates kids, so I suppose forcing one to take stewardship of his nightmare sugar palace would be the cruelest blow of all. Violet Beauregard got off easy, first being turned into a blueberry and then a cross between a Slinky and Smurfette, compared to the horrors that innocent Charlie Bucket will soon face as the ward of Depp's capricious, bratty man-child. The film's ending hints at this as Charlie's humble shack is transported, filth and all, to the center of Wonka's chocolate room. Though Director Tim Burton attempts to create a scenerio where Wonka makes peace with his own childhood and essentially "grows up" to accept other people, Wonka ultimately forces them to meet him on his terms only as the movie suggests with its contrived and creepy fade-out.

I suppose my real problem was with why this movie was made at all. The 1971 film is great, a perfectly good translation of the book to the screen, unhampered by the screwy logic that Willy Wonka needed a traumatic backstory in order to flesh out his character. Wonka is a trickster, like Br'er Rabbit or Bugs Bunny. He's smarter than everyone around him and slyly waits for the arrogant or the violent to do themselves in. The trickster is justice in the form of a deceptively weak or seemingly foolish character. If you take away his tricks, or try and overexplain them, he becomes very ordinary very fast.

This device may work for a character like the Wizard of Oz who really is a humbug, but it's death for Wonka, who is the real deal. Also, I object to Burton's movie because it is part of a growing trend of remake for remake's sake. The current crop of studio execs, all in their mid to late thirties and all TV raised, look to the box as their sole source of inspiration. I recently had a Warner Bros. exec tell me as much, saying the fact that someone put a show on TV told him someone had faith in the original concept, thus it was a proven commodity, thus it was good. This being his justification for greenlighting the new STARSKY AND HUTCH and DUKES OF HAZZARD flicks, BTW.

WILLY WONKA AND THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY was not a TV series of course, but during the 70's and 80's it was shown so often on TV, particularly around Thanksgiving and Christmas, that it drilled itself into the minds of impressionable Gen Xers and so became "a classic" worth remaking. Or to reduce it to blunt studio logic, lots of people know the original, so if it flops, it's a failure of the original concept, not of the talentless lunkhead who had no other idea than to okay this rather limp remake.



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[info]weaktwos
2005-07-25 03:55 am UTC (link)
I was very skeptical when I found out Burton was remaking Wonka. I loved the original, too, and felt that anyone attempting to remake it had promethean task on his hands. I had seen the movie trailer for Wonka in the theaters around the time the Michael Jackson trials came out. When I saw the New Wonka, the mannerisms, as well as the theme of "rich older man hangs out with children" gave me a case of the heebie-jeebies.

In short, if I see it at all, it will be via Netflix when it comes out on DVD.

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 05:09 am UTC (link)
Again, if Wonka had been an old, Santa-like man the fantasy wouldn't have seemed so creepy. I'm sure the producers did model their version of Wonka on Jackson, never figuring on the trail earlier this year. By the time the trial had started, the movie was well under way and they couldn't change anything. However that doesn't seem to be hurting its box office any.

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[info]clemidia
2005-07-25 06:29 am UTC (link)
How about writing The Adventures of the Sock Monkeys?

All there seems to be today for family fare are celluloid vehicles of remakes and other excuses for mass consumerism.

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 07:43 am UTC (link)
We'll see. I'm sure Little Rashy would love to have his life story told.

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[info]little_rashy
2005-07-25 07:45 am UTC (link)

YeAH!

RashY

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[info]clemidia
2005-07-25 03:24 pm UTC (link)
Rashy:

Demand to star in it. Or, tell them you'll have SuperRica pee everywhere.

Then, ask for three things:

1) Your own dressing room, complete with an ever-flowing bowl of blue M&Ms, Snowflake on-demand and a 64" TV

2) Complete script control including say over your co-stars, music and animal-handlers

3) Your own Hummer limo--to keep--and wardrobe approval, with options to keep that, too--as well as the option to appear nude as you dictate

Yer welcome.

"Aunt Wendy", your on-location "tutor"

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 07:19 pm UTC (link)
Paul breaking in here to answer for Rashy --- Wendy, he already asks for all that every day. I'm sure being a media star would only make him worse.

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[info]clemidia
2005-07-25 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Hahaah!

He's in Time Out now, right?

Well, now you see How Puppets Go Bad. May I suggest more beatings and parental abuse?

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-26 04:47 am UTC (link)
I'm listening....

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[info]clemidia
2005-07-27 12:53 am UTC (link)
I see we speak the same language.

Did I ever tell you about the Ernie puppet that went bad?

Seems there is a stripper in the Cincy area who uses an Ernie hand puppet to go down on her during her spotlighted act. Spectators have described it as "unnatural" and "a train wreck of an act." They say the weirdest part is the shadow reflecting on the wall beside her.

Just thought you should know is all.

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[info]clemidia
2005-07-25 03:37 pm UTC (link)
Paul, I truly think its time has come.

Look at the popularity of Triumph and the pet store puppet a few years back--as well as the ever-hot Muppets schtuff--not to mention the ongoing demand for Curious George books and other items. More fun than a barrel of monkeys sock puppets!!

And, what is more wholesome than the original sock monkey, who the Boomers not only recall from their own childhoods, but has endured all these years to STILL have great public availability.

*is willing to jump on-board as a monkey advisor/poo-flinger; will work for bananas*

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Oh the monkeys will have their day. Misty and I are already plotting things out. Heh, heh...

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[info]clemidia
2005-07-25 10:53 pm UTC (link)
Well, may I have the t-shirt concession for "Poo-Flingers Unite! Revenge of the Piss"?

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-26 04:46 am UTC (link)
We'll use that as the concert tee shirt for their first world tour. :)

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[info]clemidia
2005-07-27 12:54 am UTC (link)
Yay!

I'm rich er--fulla shit?

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[info]pricciar
2005-07-25 07:57 am UTC (link)
I agree with your negative review of the new Wonka movie. Probably for some of the same reasons, and maybe for others. But, on a larger note I really agree with you on the remake for remakes sake that has been coming out lately.

I am curious about Bad News Bears, because I love Linklater. But. Why? I mean the movie is less dated today than it was 10 years ago- Long hair is popular among teens again.

I think the best remakes are remakes of films that were mediocre or a film that changes things so drastically it can barely be compared to the original. Ocean's 11 was fabulous. Lots of fun and probably even better than the rat pack version.

I will say this for Burton's Charie and the Chocolate Factory. Charlie was a really good choice for the role. And, Johnny Depp, while nothing like the Wonka from the book, had a few really amusing segments in the movie.

pat

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 07:25 pm UTC (link)

I gree with you on Ocean's 11, also with elements of Depp's performance. I just think Wonka's character was badly conceived for the remake. All the little touches, like Willy chucking Mr. Salt's business card, and his fun flashback moment with Grandpa Joe are what made an otherwise drab character shine for me.

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[info]bleeding_tree
2005-07-25 08:16 am UTC (link)
I'm disappointed because I thought making a truer adaptation of Roald Dahl's book was a pretty legitimate reason for making a new film (of course, I also think making a truer adaptation of Robert Bloch's novel is an interesting reason to remake Psycho, too). As I saw more and more promotion, though, I kept getting a sense of exactly how untrue Depp's Wonka is.

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 07:14 pm UTC (link)
The only reason for making this movie was money. In the last 34 years a cult sprang up around the original Wonka movie and the WB film execs thought if folks were spending $$$ to by it on video, they'll spend more to see a new version in the theatres. Besides, think of the merchandising tie-ins!

Of course, the new movie probably cost 120 million + to make, and will most likely level off at about 180 million. That leaves 60 million in profit which they probably could have realized anyway by holding the Gene Wilder version off the shelves for a couple years and releasing a spiffed-up new print to theatres. With few other family films out there, and nostalgia for parents who wanted to see the original in a theatre with their kids, Warners would have made that 60 mil back in a weekend without bothering with the remake at all.

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(Anonymous)
2005-07-26 03:27 am UTC (link)
I don't know how seriously you mean this argument, and you know the execs and their reasoning better than I do. But even though I loathed Burton's remake, I guess I'll argue the devil’s side here.

The 1998 reissue of “The Wizard of Oz” only grossed $14.8 million. Even accounting for ticket price inflation, I have to say I’m skeptical that “Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory” has 4x that much in it. Frankly, I wonder if the marketing costs of getting it and an audience into the theater could be covered by the rentals. Beyond that, a theatrical reissue would have to compete with the DVD of the film. For $14 you can buy it off Amazon. That won’t even cover two matinee tickets and a tiny concession stand snack--and I’m in semi-rural Oklahoma! “Willy Wonka” is beloved in America, but I don’t know that it’s that way overseas. It seems like there’d be very little to be scrounged from international markets with a reissue.

Basically, there seems to me very little financial upside in a reissue.

By contrast, a remake--even a $120 million remake--has a LOT of upside. There’s not only the $180 million domestic gross you estimate, there’s also the foreign box office. (Burton’s film, being so visual and having so little dialogue--and so little dialogue that is good or memorable--ought to translate well.) It will have its own lucrative DVD revenues this Christmas. It will bring in new TV revenue. It will probably even goose DVD sales of the Gene Wilder film.

It also falls pretty neatly into the faux-Disney style of filmmaking that Slate’s Edward Jay Epstein notes is at the bottom of ten recent “billion-dollar” films. Given the tremendous potential upside (and given that the participation of Village Roadshow probably means that Warners’ financial exposure is pretty limited), I’ll admit that if I were a Warners exec, I’d find the financial argument for a remake pretty compelling.

I’m not happy about this, of course. The exec you quote is arguing from fear: there’s some reason to think a remake would be well-received by nostalgic TV watchers. The above is an argument from greed: look at the $$$$$$$ to be had. Put them together, multiply by all the nostalgia-ready items in the Hollywood vaults--and I quickly become VERY depressed.

--Jay

PS. Like Jen, I'm really happy to see you back in the mix of things online!

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-26 04:44 am UTC (link)
Happy to be back, Jay!

I certainly see your point with your Devil's Advocate look at CHARLIE & THE CHOCOLATE FACTORY. My statement that a rerelease would do just as well in the long run was somewhat capricious. I was not taking into account the overseas market or DVDs, which are big parts of a film's overall success. And now that C&TCF is a true success two weeks running, Warners marketing can pimp it as such, rounding up more licensees for toy and food product tie-ins and working toward an even bigger DVD release for this Christmas.

I guess the most telling sign that reissues have seen their day is that Disney no longer bothers to rerelease their animated classics. And there's no reason they should when each DVD release brings in a veritible McDuck's money bin in sales.

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[info]bleeding_tree
2005-07-26 08:31 am UTC (link)
Well, of course the only reason execs wanted to make it was money.

When they thought bringing in kids was the way to rake in big Batman bucks, they made the silly, brightest colored Batman movie ever. Now, the post-X-Men wisdom is to bring in a smart interesting director to handle these things, so they did. If they thought making Batman a brooding old Swede with religious issues would make the most money, they'd be on the phone to get Bergman and Von Sydow on board. If they'd thought Batman a singing chipmunk would make the most money, they'd have gotten David Seville.

The fact of the matter is, whether any remake is interesting or worthwhile comes down to whether the creative people involved are able to make it interesting, although I'm not sure how anyone could have expanded upon the concept of "The Dukes of Hazzard" in any really compelling way.

Fox didn't sit down and decide they needed to make a movie about how a man loses his spiritual humanity as he lost his physical humanity. They thought they could make some money off the name "The Fly" and saw that David Cronenberg was a rising star in the genre field.

WB set about making the movie for entirely crass reasons, as is their wont. The word from the producer, screenwriter and director was that they were going to use this as an opportunity to be truer to the book and make a vibrant, colorful and dark vision with that as a model. I'm not saying that it's in itself enough to make a movie, but it could have been the start.

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-26 07:10 pm UTC (link)
Those "crass reasons" were why we stopped making the revamped-look Batman cartoon back in 97-98 and instantly launched into "Batman Beyond." It was not because we were suddenly gripped with the desire to explore the future of the Batman mythos, but because the master toy licensee had two more years of product tied into the "Batman and Robin" movie. The movie stiffed at the box office and took the entire toy line with it. Desperate to make up lost revenue, the toy folks asked Warners for a new animated show, ideally one that could maximize their existing B&R toy models. Animation agreed to do a future take on Batman, but only if the characters and story drove the concept, not the pre-existing toys. The toy company agreed, but put their slightly retooled B&R toys out as the first wave of "Batman Beyond" figures anyway. The show did well in ratings and with audiences. The action figures, less so.

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[info]bleeding_tree
2005-07-26 08:16 pm UTC (link)
Wow. I didn't know that. That's very interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

That is exactly what I'm saying. Sometimes studios and such will present creative people with projects that aren't good, creative ideas, like remaking a work that already satisfies its audience or making a TV show in order to market toys. It's up to those people to take that and make something interesting from it, if they're going to take it on.

Tim Burton certainly could have taken this or Planet of the Apes and made them into something interesting a worthwhile.

Someone else would have gotten the same request that you got and either left or resigned themselves to writing something cheesy. At one time, I would certainly have figured Tim Burton to be in the category of being able to make creative lemonade with his lemons, but it seems he's definitely not, which I find kind of disappointing.

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[info]playingrecords
2005-07-25 01:39 pm UTC (link)
my biggest complaint with the film is the fact that the original moral is completely glossed over. this version has charlie winning the factory because he helped wonka understand the importance of family. while the original film may have strayed from the book more, they made sure that the moral hit home. tim burton's flick just let it fizzle.

and frankly, kids need a lesson in moderation more than ever.

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 07:08 pm UTC (link)

Yes, that's one more place where the movie derails for me. If Wonka is looking for an heir, he already understands some of the importance of family, even if his own wasn't very pleasant. In the book and first movie, Charlie wins on his own merits period, the same thing that made Wonka a success in the first place.

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[info]pulsejenc
2005-07-25 02:08 pm UTC (link)
hi Paul :)

:)

Glad to see you joined the craziness!

jen
the pulse
http://www.comicon.com/pulse

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i checked out...
[info]chaodai
2005-07-25 02:19 pm UTC (link)
...on mr. burton's work right after "planet of the apes." and that was a few movies too late, i'm afraid - at this point i just assume that we have a diverging aesthetic and don't put myself through the trouble. i have agreed to disagree with the man, i guess is what i am trying to say.

i dunno if i agree completely on the question of remakes, one could make the case that for ever "planet of the apes" there's an "ocean's eleven" or "battlestar galactica" where the remake actually tops the original...

...what i wonder is this, considering that you have done several versions of batman and other classic characters, would you consider those remakes? or does the fact that there is a steady stream of narrative featuring those characters (unlike there only being two wonka movies) make it more of a part of a larger whole where, every once in a while, the work of a creator (or group thereof) make something truly definitive? i'm curious about your opinion on that, and how it informs your approach to the material.

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Re: i checked out...
[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 06:56 pm UTC (link)

I still have enough fondness for "Pee-Wee's Big Adventure" and most of "Beetlejuice" that I will peep Burton's films if I find their subject matter remotely interesting. I passed on "Apes" because I knew that would be heartbreak. "Big Fish" was playing free on inflight and I still felt I wasted my money. I liked what Burton started out as, but he has become a safe, McDonalds-ized parody of "dark." Goth for lunkheads who never read Gothe. The Wal-Mart approved happy face of "weird." There's no "weird" in his work, and certainly not in his design. He swiped most of that from Edward Gorey, then mashed it together with limited animation designs created by Disney director Ward Kimball. Check out the hysterical short "Life on Mars?" on the Disney Treasures "Tomorrowland" DVD if you doubt. It's all there, pop-eyed twisty-nosed candy-cane colored monsters and all. Hell, I can't blame him, at one time or another, all of us in animation have swiped from Kimball, myself included. I guess I resent that Burton has become such a brand name among movie execs: "We want something weird, something 'Tim Burton'". Oh, so you want lots of pointless set dressing, scenes to nowhere and plots that meander in circles without resolution. If you want something imaginative, just say so and leave Burton's name out of it.

I completely agree with you on "Ocean's Eleven" and "Battlestar Galactica". The ideas behind those stories were better than the original movie or TV show and the remakes only strengthened what was fun or exciting about them.

My objection to the "Wonka" remake stems from the studio hubris behind it --- uncreative accountants and marketing execs failing upwards through the studio system, with no love of film or filmmaking experience looking back only as far as what they own in their film libraries for movie inspiration. Roald Dahl's writing is "weird", Tim Burton and Johnny Depp are "weird", let's remake "Chocolate Factory." Sure the flick is making buttloads of money, but talk about playing it safe. If there was no earlier version of "Willy Wonka", the current "Charlie" would have never been made. You don't see Warners taking a real chance by say, zipping Depp into a furry outfit and telling him and Burton to go off and make Dahl's "Fantastic Mr. Fox."

I don't consider the "Batman" or "JLU" episodes to be remakes exactly for the reason you noted --- they are new narratives about characters with ongoing adventures. If I did an animated version of Burton's first Batman flick and stayed close to his central plot and takes on the characters, yes, I would be doing a remake. Whereas a new Batman story where he teams up with Dr. Fate to fight, oh, let's say, the Demon, would be a plot of my own invention. (Hmm, that's not bad...mental note, pitch to B.T. for next season) Anyway, all creators who work on an established character like Batman or Superman look back on the history and lore of the characters, take key elements that define them and craft their own stories about them.

I equate modern superheroes (and some animated characters) closely with folklore characters from the last two centuries. In the 21st century Superman is our Paul Bunyan and Bugs Bunny is our Br'er Rabbit. Not all the stories told about them are memorable or even good, but they have respectively come to represent the mass-media superhero and trickster in our contemporary culture.

I'm sure there were plenty of dumb, forgetable tall tales about Pecos Bill, but every once in a while an image sticks with you, like that of Pecos roping and riding a cyclone, that it becomes indelibly linked with the character. You could liken that to the powerful image of the aged Batman springing out of the Batmobile to take on the mutant leader in Frank Miller's "Dark Knight Returns." Each image defines unique qualities of its respective hero and thus becomes a part of the hero's ongoing story. An uncreative writer would look for ways to repeat those events exactly, while a creative writer would take the emotional power behind those images and craft something new and exciting from a different (but still true to the character) situation.

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 07:16 pm UTC (link)
Hey Jen,

Everyone else was having fun, so I decided to jump in the pool, too. :)

Paul

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[info]pulsejenc
2005-07-26 03:53 pm UTC (link)
Well ... be careful in the deep end without your water wings ;)

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Your opinion: is Wonka really Michael Jackson?
[info]tomreedtoon
2005-07-25 07:27 pm UTC (link)
This is currently the biggest conversation about this film. (Which I just can't bring myself to see in theatres; I'll wait until it hits HBO.) Fancy costumes, hanging around children, absolutely white face, a playground residence...that, more than anything else, creeps me out.

Now, I don't think the filmmakers sat down and said "Let's do Jacko!" But the relationship is hard to avoid, and it didn't look like they avoided it.

It's also a nasty turn on the original; basically, like Dahh's other stories, "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" was supposed to teach moral lessons to the little rugrats who were the intended audience. Don't watch too much TV, don't overeat, don't be greedy. From what I've seen, the only moral lesson the movie teaches is that no adult can ever be trusted (again, a good lesson vis-a-vis Jackson).

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Re: Your opinion: is Wonka really Michael Jackson?
[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 07:48 pm UTC (link)

There's some Michael Jackson in there sure, I think parallels are unavoidable, whether Burton and Depp meant them or not. But unlike Jackson, Wonka doesn't welcome the company of kids. He invites them in only because they have the tickets and because he feels compelled to leave his factory to one. If anything, I'd say Wonka relishes the company of Oompa-Loompas more than ordinary humans, and you can read into that what you will. Personally I didn't find either the male or female Loompas all that appealing, but hey, different strokes.

As far as Depp's look goes, I'd say it's more Marilyn Manson than Jackson. Manson effected a similar style of dress for his recent "Golden Age of the Grotesque" album and tour, and claims to be a big fan of the original "Wonka" movie. Also, Depp and Manson are said to be friends, so it's likely Depp borrowed a bit from him just as he borrowed from his other pal Keith Richards when crafting his character Capt. Jack Sparrow for "Pirates of the Caribbean."

I think modern movie makers are afraid to try and teach lessons of good behavior to kids. After all, they need kids to pay for tickets and popcorn and if the mutants feel they're being preached to, they may give "C&TCF" the F.U. and go see "Sith" again. Therefore Charlie has to be all-knowing and Wonka is the one who has to learn the pat, unoffensive lesson that "family is good."

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[info]february_sea
2005-07-25 07:35 pm UTC (link)
*crash-lands*

Hello. :)

I quite agree with your comments on the new movie--Johnny Depp, for all his talent, is definitely not playing the part at all as portrayed in Dahl's book.

The book character is described as someone who looks very clever, who looks sharp and quick and full of life, and he greets (and subsequently interacts with) the five children with great excitement and openness. (His age seems a bit more open-ended: the book character does have a black goatee, so I'd be more inclined to place him on the younger side, but that's pretty immaterial, really.)

The thing I found most disturbing was the movie Wonka's overt hostility toward the children (his responses of "I don't care" and "What makes you think that that's possibly important?" go pretty far beyond the tongue in cheek insults in the book (or the Wilder movie), where the observations, cheerily offered, are so effective because despite their delivery, they are all too true.

In short...weird movie. But then...we're talking Tim Burton and Johnny Depp as a one-two combination...you sort of have to expect 'weird'.

Er. Going, now. :)

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-25 08:29 pm UTC (link)

Hmm. I can see I'll have to reread the book to refresh myself on Wonka's appearance as per Dahl. Like I said, I was basing my memory of Wonka on his waxwork statue, and the illustrations from the first edition of the book which I read ages ago. Quentin Blake's more recent illustrations, great as they are, make everyone look sort of old.

I agree that Depp's Wonka was too cold and dismissive of the kids. If anything a Wonka who pretends to love and dote on kids and still "accidentally" allows them to come to misfortune in his factory might have been more what Dahl had in mind.

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Really Wonky
[info]linworkman
2005-07-26 04:04 pm UTC (link)
I haven't seen C&TCF, and will probably wait to rent or catch on cable. Not much on remakes lately. War Of The Worlds had some cool moments, but I still walked out thinking, "Did I like that or not..?"

Anyway, reading the comments on Tim Burton and the Batman staements I have to share something I heard at work yesterday. Two co-workers were talking about Batman Begins. One said to the other, "The Joker wans't in it. I hate it when Hollywood messes with a character's origin. How can you show Batman being created without the Joker killing his parents? Why couldn't they do it right like in the Tim Burton one?! I need to write DC and tell them to stop #*@$ing with their characters!"

I had to just sit there and bite my lip...and try not to laugh too loud! The sad part is, most of my non-comic fan friends think the '89 movie IS Batman.

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Re: Really Wonky
[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-26 07:17 pm UTC (link)

And for your friend, that IS the definitive Batman, just as some folks Batman is and always will be the Adam West Batman, or the Superfriends Batman or the Frank Miller Batman...

Naturally if one cares for Batman at all, they should want to see and enjoy other creators' takes on the character. But given all the other superhero and fantasy concepts out there competing for the layperson's attention, the fact that your co-worker knew who Batman is at all is a plus.

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Re: Really Wonky
[info]linworkman
2005-07-26 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Christopher Walken...wow, they have worked together. I'd have to go back and read the book to see- it's been about 30 years! Don't think there would have been any Michael Jackson comparisons!

Yeah, that's Batman to them, just like Adam West was to me for a few years growing up, or George Reeves or Christopher Reeve were Superman to different generations. Heck, if Marlon Brando had had his way many folks would now think Joe-El was a talking suitcase. I can dig other interpretations of a character. Heck, you guys did with Batman (which I consider to be the most faithful to the character)and continue to still do so on JLU. I even like a lot of the Elseworlds stuff. I guess that's what's so cool about many of the characters out there. How many Zorro's have there been? Green Hornets? Batman?

I've got a couple friends who have volunteered to do some pin-ups for our second issue of BT. I really can't wait to see how they portray our characters. I'm really looking forward to the day when I can go to a con and see someone dressed up as one!

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The right actor for Wonka
(Anonymous)
2005-07-26 07:34 pm UTC (link)
I agree with your assessment of the new movie. I was really turned off when Depp was cast because I don't consider him at all right for the part. Wonka should look at least middle-aged if not older. Personally I think Gene Wilder could have done the role even better now that he is older.

I don't know how seriously Christopher Walken was considered for the role but I also think he has the perfect qualties, age, and eccentricity to pull it off. I had hopes that Burton was really trying to make a faithful adaption of the book when Walken was mention but everything crashed for me when Depp was cast. Hell, Christopher LEE would have made a better Wonka.

That's a shame too because most of the casting worked for me.

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The right actor for Wonka
(Anonymous)
2005-07-26 07:35 pm UTC (link)
I agree with your assessment of the new movie. I was really turned off when Depp was cast because I don't consider him at all right for the part. Wonka should look at least middle-aged if not older. Personally I think Gene Wilder could have done the role even better now that he is older.

I don't know how seriously Christopher Walken was considered for the role but I also think he has the perfect qualties, age, and eccentricity to pull it off. I had hopes that Burton was really trying to make a faithful adaption of the book when Walken was mention but everything crashed for me when Depp was cast. Hell, Christopher LEE would have made a better Wonka.

That's a shame too because most of the casting worked for me. Maybe someone else will get it right 30 more years from now.

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[info]jbacardi
2005-07-27 07:05 pm UTC (link)
Everyone who is thinking about viewing this film should read this first. You are absolutely right on the money, so to speak.

Actually, I was considering seeing it last week, and stopped in at a Wal-Mart to buy something (forget what it was)...and kept hearing an incessant minor-key "la la la la" melody which was an ad for the Wonka video game that was playing on the TV's they have all over the store. It was the same kind of hyperactive, by-now-cliched Elfman music that he's written since Pee-Wee's Big Adventure", and after about ten minutes of it I was ready to jam pencils in my ears to make it stop. It was then that I knew that this remake was not for me.

Burton seems to see everything and understand nothing in his zeal to bend everything into the shape of his imitation-Gorey aesthetic, and while I'll cop to liking Big Fish, I've been extremely disappointed in everything else he's done since Beetlejuice. Ed Wood was OK, but mostly for Landau as Bela Lugosi and not because it was some sort of "biography", which it wasn't.

Great post, Paul.

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-07-27 07:53 pm UTC (link)

I'll always have a certain fondness for "Scissorhands" and "Ed Wood." Landau's reading of "No one geeves two fucks for Bela" still puts me on the floor. Since Burton became the go-to guy for weirdo remakes I've lost a lot of interest in his work.

I maintain that Elfman's early scores were successes largely due to the arrangements and orchestrations of Shirley Walker. She's the reason B:TAS and SUPERMAN always sounded so good.

Nice to have you drop by, Mr. Bacardi!

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[info]jbacardi
2005-07-28 02:54 am UTC (link)
The pleasure's all mine! I look forward to checking your site out, O King!

Interesting to know that about Shirley Walker...I hadn't read the credits that closely.

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[info]apothecaries
2005-07-29 05:59 pm UTC (link)
I think the only thing that saved me from crying during Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was Johnny Depp. And that is only because I like him.

I gave up on Burton after Ed Wood. But like an idiot I keep going to see his films. I'm human, what can I say -_-

I hope you do not mind but I have added you, I am Courtney. There, now I don't feel as intruding :p

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[info]kingofbreakfast
2005-08-15 07:53 pm UTC (link)

Happy to have you here, Courtney.

I will see Corpse Bride because at best it looks like fun, at worst, like another limp feature length toon, and I usually have see those, anyway.

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