based on That Thread at Kos and Those Posts at rantavation:

I work very hard to see the totality of the people I'm dealing with, or at least to find enough common ground to be able to see a way to understand their actions as, in context, understandable.

So now there's the Green thing, and here's my take on it.

I see a few Democratic/left wing reactions to the question of Green participation in national elections.

1) I hate you spoiler fucks. Democrats 4ever. Fuck you.

Not a lot to work with there.

2) I hate you people and what you did, but if you kiss my ass in Macy*s window at high noon on Thanksgiving while Santa is going by, I'll let you slink back into my good graces.

Not a lot to work with there.

3) I hate what you did, but there's room in the process for all of us. Just come home and we'll talk no more about it.

Better than the last two, but even if you accept the basic premise, it's not the most attractive way to approach it. A tad condescending, at least.

4) Gee, you seem like a nice person, so even though I hate what you did, you're welcome to come home and play nice and we'll kill the fatted calf and have a barbeque.

This is kind of sweet and generous, but it's basically a good-hearted version of 3), which, as I mentioned, has problems.

5) I can see why you felt that you had to do what you did, but now that we've seen what happened, clearly you can't do it again.

This is better, I think, but it presumes that the Green you're talking to sees less cause to make their point than they did three years ago. The world has changed and the stakes are higher, but the venality of the current political system is pretty constant (although there too, the party in power are pulling ahead by leaps and bounds).

6) I can see why you felt that you had to do what you did, and I really don't want you to do it again, but if you feel that you have to, at least run for the Greens instead of against the Democrats.

Full disclosure: this is where I fall, just about. Still has a smackerel of condescension to it - I as a Democrat don't get to tell you how to run your campaign (but then, I as a person tell everybody what to do, so at least don't feel singled out). At least it's more defensible than 1-5.

7) Hey, let's work together to get a Democratic candidate you can support - God only knows progressive Democrats are almost as frustrated as you are by their national leadership - and once we have a going relationship we can really help you make a national impact on a grass-roots level.

This is, I think, what we should be working towards. The way the system works, a third party can have the most impact on a state and leglislative level. Even if a Green could be elected president, he or she wouldn't be able to accomplish much without lower house and state support. First things first.


In reverse order, now, the Green positions that keep popping up.

7) Now that I have your attention, can we please fix things? I think we can all agree that the system is screwed up. I don't want to screw it up more - I just want to see some progress, and I'm sick of being brokenhearted. This is a golden opportunity for us - we'll never have a better candidate to run against. Let's do it together.

Obviously, I like this a lot.

6) I can't in good conscience vote for a system as compromised as the one in place, but I'll support any efforts you make to clean it up enough to pass my sniff test. I will make a protest vote if I feel that I have to.

Don't really have a problem with this. I see it as equivalent to a fervently anti-abortion person voting Republican because no matter what other dreadful things they do, they're my best shot at achieving my goal.

5) I can see why you feel a need to vote for the Democratic candidate, but I can't justify doing it myself. I'm going to work for the Greens.

Don't much like this, but it's honest and consistent.

4) I can see why you feel a need to vote for the Democratic candidate, but the Democratic party is so tainted that I feel I have to fight against it to open up the space for a true leftist political presence.

This one bothers me a lot. It's condescending and it's not practical and it ignores a whole lot of things.

3) I'm working to oppose the Democrats and you're a bad person for not working with me.

This one has never made any sense to me. "Gore should have fought to get Nader into the debates" is an offshoot of this one. Um, why? Nader fought very, very dirty. Should Gore have gone to the mat for Nader's right to gut him on national television? This does not square with the companion justification, which is

2) not only did I do the right thing by trying to kill Gore's chances, I am not responsible for the consequences of my actions because Gore's chances coincidentally committed suicide at exactly the same time. If Gore had played hardball he would have won. I think this worked out well and I plan to do it again.

This isn't true and it isn't honest. If the guy you're shooting at goes over a cliff, you don't get to write off shooting at him. You have to live with the spirit of your actions even if you want to wash your hands of their consequences.

1, and a great favorite of mine) Haha. We sure showed you. We did this. We're big and strong and we'll take the system by force. We're going to do it again, too, and you can't stop us. Note: You big meanies need to stop talking bad to us. Bad, bad, bad big meanies. You're supposed to kiss our asses. Yes, of course I'm going to do it anyway, but I'm righteous and you need to kiss my ass. I'm really a life-long Democrat, you know, and if no-one that reminds me of a Democrat does anything to piss me off I might not try to fuck your election up. Psych!


To my mind, the biggest problem with the discussions we're all having of this is that 3-7 tend to give up and go away when 1 and 2 show up.

What I'd like to see happen is:

Greens and Democrats with progressive goals decide to cut off the 1s and 2s _from their own sides_. (One prominent Green blogger recently announced, explicitly, that a Green poster was the only person who was allowed to be abusive to their opponents in his comments, and I've lost a great deal of respect for him).

Here's the thing: I think we all recognize that there's a whole lot of bad blood here. The problem is, if I want to respond to the views of a 1 or a 2, I want to be able to respond to them without my friends who are 3-7s bridling and taking my reaction as applying to them.

I won't say that some of my best friends are Greens here (although practically all of them are). I will say that I would be very unhappy if people like Emma and kip thought that the bulgy-eyed rage that I feel when I run into a nyahnyah Green is aimed at them, in the same way that I hope they have enough respect for the way I think to mentally exempt me from the way they feel when a Fuck You Democrat gets going.

It's all well and good to say that we should support our own, but I think that the small percentage of "our own" who are bound and determined to bust us into shards so that they can build their world in the wreckage are the enemy of the 98% who just want to be able to read the news without wanting to vomit.

FWIW.