jhkimrpg ([info]jhkimrpg) wrote,
@ 2005-10-24 23:12:00
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Entry tags:queensland

Roleplaying in the World of "A Brother's Price"
So along with the post-apocalyptic fantasy game idea I had (cf. Breaking Down D&D), I have also been pondering about another potential campaign for the future.

The idea is a game set in the world of Wen Spencer's "A Brother's Price" or a close parallel. The point is not so much to derive from or emulate the plot, but rather to draw on the setting. This would be an immersionist game, where a big part of the point is filling out the culture, society, and other aspects of life in that world. I recommend the book, but to describe it in brief: it is a world in a period roughly like early 19th century Europe, but for at least most of its history, nearly all male pregnancies miscarry -- resulting in men being only 3 to 5% of the population. So the point here is to focus on exploring this setting. There are a lot of details glossed over in the novel -- what is the religion like? What are educational institutions like? What is army life like? Answering all of these inherently means delving into gender issues.

However, I am not sure what the primary action of the game would be. My main constraint is that it should have intrigue and action mixed with family life. The big trick is -- how to make men be interesting as player characters? One thought is that I could set it several generations in the future, and have a nascent men's suffrage movement which is a focus of action. Or I could set it in the royal court where there are a series of well-policed balls which are a key part of the action. I might do what I did in the Vinland game, and have most people have a woman as their main PC -- while some people have a man as their alternate PC.

So I would want to keep the game very well grounded, realistic, and character-immersive. I'm slightly tempted to put in some emotional mechanics mainly to represent the group dynamics of a family -- like the stabilizing influence which a strong man. However, I don't want to go too deeply down that route. Another interesting possibility would be if the game could span generations. That would make character generation tricky, though, if I wanted to actually represent familial relations.

I'm not sure what mechanical system I would want to use as a base. In principle, something like GURPS would be appropriate -- but I have a distaste for that system from prior experience, although I realize that there have been a number of fixes in the fourth edition (which I haven't read). There are also similar systems like JAGS2, Action!, or EABA (which I also haven't read). But none of these options really grab me. On the other hand, I don't think I would get what I want out of something like, say, The Pool.



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[info]jeregenest
2005-10-25 12:04 pm UTC (link)
Why are you thinking GURPS?

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Re: I agree
[info]jhkimrpg
2005-10-27 10:14 pm UTC (link)
I would like to emphasize detail and realism of the setting. This is something which GURPS has traditionally concentrated on. It would be really nice to have a sourcebook in the style of the better GURPS historical sourcebooks, treating the place as real. I don't like their implementation of the view, but my aim is similar, I think.

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[info]codexarcanum
2005-10-25 01:41 pm UTC (link)
That sounds like a very interesting idea, and I can most definately see the value of both emotional mechanics and generational roleplaying. I can see how each minor story arc (covering one generation) would allow a player to make a reputation for that chain of the family, giving the entire family an overall representation over time. For example, a player might make every character a very noble paladin-type, but then make one character who is exactly the opposite. It gives the players more variety to work with, and it builds interesting history because the player actually got to be the black sheep in the family, and now the player can deal with the rumors and fallout from that as another character in the line.

I would suggest, for system, that you could always FUDGE it, a game which usually strikes me as a less complicated GURPS. There's also the Unisystem, which is pretty easy to meddle with for adding customized mechanics. I'm actually at a loss for system suggestions right now, everything I've used for that last long while has been my homebrew system and the only thing I'm reading or playing right now is Nobilis and Shadowrun 4th.

Keep us posted, I've always wanted to do a game that dealt with gender issues and this sounds like a very interesting forray into that field.

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How about FATE
(Anonymous)
2005-10-25 11:45 pm UTC (link)
I'd use FATE; it sounds like there's lots of loaded relationships that are fodder for good Aspects.

A short story that dealt with similar demographics is LeGuin's "The Matter of Seggri." (It's included in "The Birthday of the World", and Best of SF 1995?) It might give you a contrasting view of the society that'd result from the gender imbalance, helping to tack away from a specific plot.

--Scott

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I agree
[info]vaxalon
2005-10-26 01:00 pm UTC (link)
FATE would be ideal for this game, given that relationships are so important. If you want something a little more elaborate, the system behind Heroquest (minus the heroquests, of course) offers a lot as well.

The games you mention - GURPS, JAGS, Action!, EABA... none of them have a strong method of measuring relationships or empowering characters based on them. That's really essential to any setting where you want to see a focus on that kind of play. Why do you think it would be appropriate?

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Re: I agree
[info]jhkimrpg
2005-10-27 10:27 pm UTC (link)
OK, I've only briefly read FATE -- so correct any errors in my impression below.

So let me understand what is going on here. So in FATE, if I have a relationship to a sister, say, I could potentially take that as an Aspect. The effect of this is that I can get a reroll at some point when the sister is related to the current action. After I get that reroll, however, then the aspect is exhausted and will refresh only at the next appropriate break in the narrative -- by default the start of the next session.

By comparison, if I have a relationship to a sister in GURPS, then I would take the sister as an Ally or at least a Contact advantage -- with a roll depending on how strong the relationship is. This is used in game that if I would like help from the sister, then I roll on the rating (modified by agreement on how extreme the request is).

For this game, I would favor the latter method. A relationship gives you the benefit of help that character can provide, rather than a bonus to a roll. It seems to me to convey a more realistic feel. To emphasize again, I'm trying for interesting game play -- but the dramatic power doesn't come from the plot, but rather the growing understanding of life in this world.

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Re: I agree
(Anonymous)
2005-10-28 03:01 pm UTC (link)
Hm.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you want. You say "A relationship gives you the benefit of help that character can provide," which is kind of contrary to the theme that I thought you wanted, which was that relationships empower people in other ways; by inspiring them, by giving them courage and determination rather than purely utilitarian, direct assistance.

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Re: I agree
(Anonymous)
2005-10-28 03:05 pm UTC (link)
(continuing)

I think the part I may have misread is what you mean by "family life". In GURPS, the reason to have a family falls into one of two categories:

1> By taking a family member as a dependent, you make your character more powerful in other ways with the extra CP.

2> By buying a family member as an ally or contact, you make your character more powerful because of the assistance or information that the family member gives you.

Neither of these reflect the emotional support that the family member gives a person. That's the basic problem I have with GURPS, when it comes to mechanics related to relationships.

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Re: I agree
[info]jhkimrpg
2005-10-28 07:09 pm UTC (link)
I agree with this to a degree. However, I would class social/emotional support as part of #2 -- i.e. assistance that the family member gives you. Now, I might be interested in quantifying that into some sort of emotional abstraction such as "Confidence Points" (which might or might not be like Ars Magica's) that could be gained through allies or contacts. However, for this game which wants to emphasize the realistic background of the world, I don't think relationships should be further abstracted into roll bonuses identical to a sword or advantage.

It is tricky. In general, I don't like to invent a game from scratch for a given campaign -- so I'm usually willing to accept some compomises in what I think would be the ideal system. Neither the GURPS approach nor the FATE approach really grab me for this, but I'm still pondering what would.

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The JAGS2 Guarantee!
[info]marcochacon
2005-10-27 08:33 pm UTC (link)
Well, you know, while I'm sorry JAGS/J2 doesn't grab you, it's true that it doesn't have group-dynamic rules for characters. It is, however, pretty good for immersive play (as with GURPS) and if you try it and don't like it, I'll guarantee you double your money back! Which other game would give you a guarantee like that!?

...

unless you buy the print book, that is--which would actually cost me something. ;)

-Marco

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Re: The JAGS2 Guarantee!
[info]jhkimrpg
2005-10-28 08:24 pm UTC (link)
Well, the lack of group dynamics isn't really a minus since none of the other games offer it as well. The problems I have with JAGS2 are generally ones which I have with the other games I mentioned as well. They're also stylistic and perhaps slightly personal rather than completely functional.

I prefer roll and add to roll under, and 4d6 is a little cumbersome to me. I'd prefer one or two dice or the simpler addition of 4dF Fudge dice -- but Action! is 3d6 and EABA is dice-pool. I'm not very fond of the traditional breakdown of RPG attributes vs skills -- cf. my essay on Nature vs Nurture in RPGs. However, if something is close enough to what I'd want I'd prefer that.

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Re: The JAGS2 Guarantee!
[info]marcochacon
2005-10-28 08:40 pm UTC (link)
Note that for JAGS-2 (and when it comes out, JAGS Revised) a player may either link skill-roll to stat or buy it straight out (i.e. not-linked to stat).

The result is that characters with a high stat are better off linking (13 on the stat) but a character with a stat in the normal range will usually buy the skill straight.

While functionally this simply gives a player a variety of ways to min/max, the rationale behind it was to not-punish someone, for example, playing the old karate master who has great skill but mediocre or even low stats.

That might address some of your nature v. nurture issues.

As to the 4d6, yeah--more cumbersome, I agree. It was, as you know, chosen for the strength of the curve and the focus on 10. Similar to the Fudge-dice method which I think does strike many people as more elegant.

-Marco

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Re: The JAGS2 Guarantee!
(Anonymous)
2005-10-31 02:14 pm UTC (link)
Marco[on JAGS-2]:
The result is that characters with a high stat are better off linking (13 on the stat) but a character with a stat in the normal range will usually buy the skill straight.

While functionally this simply gives a player a variety of ways to min/max, the rationale behind it was to not-punish someone, for example, playing the old karate master who has great skill but mediocre or even low stats.


But this fails to punish characters with abysmally low "stats" who want to develop (or have already developed, before the campaign begins) skills based on those stats to very high levels.

Sagatafl achieves old karate master-feasibility too, but unlike JAGS-2 it does not let characters with low attributes go unpunished. My solution is that if you emphasize your Goodie Point expenditure on skills, you get tons of skills points.

Each time you double the amount of GPs in Attributes (or Advantages), you get four times as many Attribute Points (or aDvantage Points), but each time you double the amount of GPs in Skills (or Perks) you get six times as many Skill Points (or Perk Points).

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

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Re: The JAGS2 Guarantee!
[info]marcochacon
2005-10-31 02:21 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'm not especially interested in punishing those guys either. But the quest for various degrees of versimilitude does lead to some interesting places depending on how you want to take it.

-Marco

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Re: The JAGS2 Guarantee!
(Anonymous)
2005-10-31 05:02 pm UTC (link)
Marco:
Well, I'm not especially interested in punishing those guys either. But the quest for various degrees of versimilitude does lead to some interesting places depending on how you want to take it.


I need such guys to be exceedingly rare, otherwise my suspension of disbelief will be in peril.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

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[info]ewilen
2005-10-27 09:51 pm UTC (link)
I guess the question is, what will the players be doing? And what will the characters be doing? Subtle difference but it could be important. Something like the stickied Structured Design process thread over in the Forge's Indie Games Design Forum might answer the question of what kind of support you need from the game system, what kinds of mechanics will just get in the way, etc.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2005-10-28 07:18 pm UTC (link)
Well, I haven't settled on this -- but as a possibility:

Assuming that the players will take on an important family -- not a well-established noble house, but one with ties to the royal house. So the characters will be going on about their lives while helping investigate suspicious events as favors or commisioned work for the royal family. The players will be learning and helping fill out the world as they play out investigations -- which will be a mix of (1) high-class social events; (2) incognito wanderings into other segments of society to collect information; (3) overt or covert military operations to correct problems they find in their investigations. Mixed with this will be efforts to promote the family's welfare -- by selling brother(s), buying husband(s), and maintaining good relations with other families.

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[info]ewilen
2005-10-28 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Well, I haven't gotten my copy of Heroquest yet (it's on the way) but I'll toss it out as a possibility...

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[info]eruditus
2005-12-24 05:23 am UTC (link)
Although I have no initial input as to the setting - heck, everything looks potentially interesting to me - I own Wreathu for pete's sake! Anyway, EABA and FATE I think are excellent choices. Once you get the hang of things I really dig the way DitV would handle this sort of immersionist game. I have always wanted to transform Dogs into a Sengoku based Japanese drama (ala Blade of the Immortal) where the characters are ronin buddhists traveling town to town... but I digress. My other suggestions would be Silouette (and of course BW) but I do tend far more to the gritty side than usual). I might put in more thoughts on the other thread on this subject.

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