jhkimrpg ([info]jhkimrpg) wrote,
@ 2005-10-17 16:28:00
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Entry tags:dawn of fire, dnd

Characterization and System
Another topic here prompted by Adam Dray's comments. So I'm going to talk about rules system here for a bit, and its role in characterization. For these purposes, I'm calling "characterization" for how well the personality of the character comes across in the game. Adam comments,

I'm pretty strongly convinced that D&D isn't for you, no matter how far you drift it.

You talk about a "thicker layer of characterization as opposed to raw hard-core beat-the-monsters." You're not going to get that out of D&D without considerable rules changes, and then you're not playing D&D. You're playing John Kim D20 and it will have to be wildly different than the core rules before it makes you happy.

D&D's support for characterization is limited to racial stereotype, class-based stereotype, and alignment. You want more support than that.
I don't think you're analyzing my wants correctly. So I've tried characterization using D20 in my Conan RPG one-shot, Brawny Thews. I had six pregenerated PCs for that one -- cf. Brawny Thews PCs for their sheets. There were some rough spots since I was new to the system, and I couldn't quite get Eithriall to work. However, I think it wasn't bad despite the serious constraints I put on myself by having all six PCs be Cimmerian and at least half Barbarian. (See below for further notes on this.)

A basic principle of dramatic writing is that characterization flows from action rather than exposition. In game, this means that the character abilities should have the ability to represent differences in action. So labels aren't much use for characterization. For example, D&D alignment is generally passive -- mechanically it defines how things affect you (like spells), but you don't use alignment for action. Note that it might have other uses, but it isn't a very effective aid for characterization. Still, labels have their uses -- like costuming and make-up in other fields.

So what do I think helps the most? Options which are different mechanically rather than just in flavor text or narration. In many simple systems, differences are abstracted away. For example, in Over the Edge I might have one character who has "Hulking Brutal Thug 4d6" and one who has "Skillful Martial Artist 4d6". Mechanically these two characters will be identical in a fight. The players can layer on top different descriptions of what their character is doing, so the practical result can have characterization. However, the system isn't helping -- it's only providing a difference in label, whereas the action is the same.

I'm fairly skeptical of systems which rely on player-defined traits. I've used them and had fun, but by contrast a lot of other people seem to consider them a required part of design. One issue I have I went over in a Forge thread, John's Standard Rant #1: Freeform Traits. Most freeform traits mechanically encourage the players to take as generic as possible -- i.e. like "Lucky" or "Talented". In practice, the GM can forbid these or the players can voluntarily penalize themselves, but that's fighting against what the system rewards. Another problem is the lack of mechanical differentiation that I mentioned above. Freeform traits can differ in when they apply, but not usually in what effect they have -- whereas fixed traits can specify different mechanical effect.

Going back to the example of the Brawny Thews PCs...

The character sheets may be opaque to many readers, so I'll try to explain some. This is a combat-heavy event, so their character shows up most notably in their fighting. A good example is the twins: Canbotha and Eanbotha. As identical twins, I gave them identical attributes but different class mixes. Eanbotha is the responsible son and is Barbarian/Soldier while Canbotha is the rebellious son, and is Barbarian/Thief. The responsible son Eanbotha fights armored, defensively, and heavily specialized in a weapon. He will generally concentrate on one foe, possibly working in coordination with his father to defeat it. The rebellious son Canbotha fights unarmored, also defensively, but in the wild manner -- tumbling into the midst of a group and striking all around with whatever weapon he happens on.

This is one which worked pretty well, I think. There are subtler differences, too, between the animal-friendly youth Daor and the more mature hero Cumal. (You can picture Daor as Marc Singer in The Beastmaster versus Cumal as Daniel Day-Lewis in Last of the Mohicans.) Both are Barbarian-8, which makes them very similar. However, Cumal is a two-axe fighter who spreads around many attacks, can do many Attacks of Opportunity if an enemy tries certain "tricky" moves around him, and excels at throwing his axes. He tends to go in the center and strike where needed. In contrast, Daor has Cleave and will tend go for a killing shot with his two-handed sword. (I could have emphasized this difference more without the class system, but it was there.) So mechanically, Daor has much simpler tactics -- hack at something until it falls and then move to the next. This fits his youthful passion. Cumal will stand in the middle to disrupt the enemy (lots of Attacks of Opportunity), accumulate damage more steadily, and strike where needed -- sometimes throwing to strike at non-adjacent enemies.

I haven't really tried the same with D&D characters, but I think potential is there. I may post later with experiments. So I'm not sure it'll work, but it seems possible. As Adam puts it:
Now, the level treadmill seems to be in the way, too. How much do you care about characters leveling up? It's going to be very hard to make 3E into a game that doesn't push players to Step On Up. They'll spend a lot of energy min-maxing classes and skills and feats. They'll spend a lot of energy earning XP so they can level up. They'll spend a lot of energy during play figuring out the most clever tactic during combat. If they have combat abilities and feats, they'll angle their adventures so they can use them often.
I agree, but I also don't think min-maxing is opposed to characterization. As long as there are a variety of paths, I think its a good thing. All games encourage rules-lawyery min-maxing, subjective wheedling, or both. I want to set up the game such that this has purpose and meaning. In my post-apocalyptic game, the player-characters should be ambitious and want to get better so as to protect both themselves and their community.


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[info]lordsmerf
2005-10-18 05:11 am UTC (link)
Hey, this is really a good piece of insight. Thanks for sharing it.

Thomas

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[info]sim_james
2005-10-18 12:09 pm UTC (link)
I'm fairly skeptical of systems which rely on player-defined traits. I've used them and had fun, but by contrast a lot of other people seem to consider them a required part of design. One issue I have I went over in a Forge thread, John's Standard Rant #1: Freeform Traits. Most freeform traits mechanically encourage the players to take as generic as possible -- i.e. like "Lucky" or "Talented". In practice, the GM can forbid these or the players can voluntarily penalize themselves, but that's fighting against what the system rewards.

   How well do you think Unknown Armies deals with this issue? It seems to be a stereotypical player-defined trait system – I’ve read about campaigns where players too lyrics from songs (eg, “An angel’s face is tricky to wear constantly”) and used those as skills.

   And yet my personal experience of running UA is that it never came up as a problem. Did I just have a group that were of the same mindset when it came to how broad player-defined traits should be, or is there something inherent to UA that addresses the problem that you see?
   

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[info]jhkimrpg
2005-10-18 06:23 pm UTC (link)
I don't think it's a problem per se, since it is pretty easy -- often invisible -- to agree what traits are acceptable. However, traits then tend to cluster around the same level of broadness, which is usually fairly broad.

The question is, how much does this help characterization compared to fixed-trait systems like Ars Magica or the HERO System? In general, I think it is fairly even. My skepticism is compared to people who think that player-defined traits are always much better than fixed traits. I own Unknown Armies but haven't played it yet, so take this with a grain of salt. To my eye, it seems to fit in with other player-defined trait systems like Theatrix, Over the Edge, and Fudge. So, for example, it is a cool label to have a skill named after song lyrics. But to my mind, the more important question for characterization is how it affects game play. Though I suppose labels can potentially help to focus the player's dialogue and descriptions -- but that is more indirect.

One exercise, for example, is to take a writeup of a session and blank out all the names. How much of the character comes through from what the characters did?

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[info]sim_james
2005-10-18 08:39 pm UTC (link)
   That’s an interesting exercise, and I may give it a try. I’m starting a D20 campaign this week.

   We didn’t have any PCs with skills quite as interpretive as a set of song lyrics, but they were fairly personalised. On reflection, I think UA attempts to encourage more personalised player-defined traits in two ways – coolness (skill names that are just more interesting; this works a lot for some players, less for others) and the skill penumbra. Although Struggle is broader than Ninja-Fu, the second trait can feasibly be applied in other situations (sneaking, looking intimidating, writing haiku and koans) so it’s more attractive.

   It also helps that all PCs get points in Struggle, General Education, Dodge, Notice, and skills like that. Anything broader than the free skills is probably out.
   

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What about mental attributes in d20?
(Anonymous)
2005-10-18 01:10 pm UTC (link)
First of all I'll just point out that you are entirely correct, that focus on numerically rated values is not in any way contrary to roleplaying. In fact, focus on stats probably correlates with a tendency to see one's character as an individual, and to think in terms of how one's character is different from the norm in various specific regards.


But regarding your Conan d20 campaign (I have not yet checked out the character sheets but I will soon, since I'm d20-literate), did you use mental "ability score" values to aid in characterization?

Giving high values, in a campaign known to be combat-heavy, and to characters

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Re: What about mental attributes in d20?
(Anonymous)
2005-10-18 01:15 pm UTC (link)
Continuing where I left:

But regarding your Conan d20 campaign (I have not yet checked out the character sheets but I will soon, since I'm d20-literate), did you use mental "ability score" values to aid in characterization?

Giving high values, in a campaign known to be combat-heavy, and to characters


who spend a significant portion of their "character level currency" on the Barbarian class, is of course questionable, but I'm sure you're sufficiently insightful and experienced to take that into account.

But what were your thoughts? Did you make use of that tool? The PHB 3.0 (and I'm sure the 3.5 PHB too) has a "sidebar" explaining what characters with very high or low mental "ability scores" are like.


Rune, from Atlas Games, as some of the others in here might not know, is an example of taking a general purpose system (Ars Magica is much more general purpose than D&D3, or even d20) and adapting it to a specific type of campaign. In this case, a campaign very heavy in combat. The advisory text warns against putting too much "character creation currency" into the mental attributes (Ars Magica has 4 of those), since they won't be of much use.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

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Re: What about mental attributes in d20?
[info]jhkimrpg
2005-10-18 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Well, I did make use of that. The older father and leader Cruaidh had a higher Wisdom (16); while cunning Eithriall had a slightly higher Int (14); while the young and appealing twins had very high Charisma (20) along with young Daor (18). These didn't work out exactly as I would have wanted, but they were useful. For example, the responsible son Eanbotha had the Intricate Swordplay feat which let him add his Charisma bonus (+5!) to his DV, which made him nearly unhittable. However, it wasn't quite as useful to his brother Canbotha.

It's important to remember the difference between action and labels, though. For example, mechanics-wise, D20 Intelligence means skills in general and Int skills in particular. Labels are useful, and for this scenario in particular I wanted to emphasize high Charismas partly for this reason -- but in general how the stat is used in action is most important.

For what it's worth, here are their mental stats extracted out:
Cruaidh - Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 14
Eithriall - Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 13
Cumal - Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 12
Daor - Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 18
Eanbotha - Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 20
Canbotha - Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 20

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[info]adamdray
2005-10-18 02:31 pm UTC (link)
To me, defining a fighting style isn't really that much thicker a level of characterization. It seems terribly thin to me, really. But I understand your points better now. Have you checked out The Burning Wheel?

I don't think I said min-maxing was opposed to characterization. I think it just consumes a lot of player energy. If the game is built to encourage a Step On Up agenda, players who don't want to play that way will be frustrated more often than they need to be.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2005-10-18 05:48 pm UTC (link)
Well, I guess the important thing is to establish comparisons. What mechanics do you think would help to make a thicker level of characterization -- presuming equal levels of player skill at in-character dialogue and narration?

No, I haven't checked out Burning Wheel yet. I have checked out Riddle of Steel, but I haven't played it yet. Given that this is a combat-heavy game, I think that fighting style is extremely important. Obviously, if the game were low-combat, then various non-combat styles would instead be important. But to me, the key is difference in how the characters actually function in the game, rather than just different color layered on the same mechanical action.

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(Anonymous)
2005-10-18 03:00 pm UTC (link)
I've long been of the mindset that a combat can and should reflect the personality of the character with mechanical differences and not verbal sleight of hand. This was one of the major goals in my own game design from day one.

I'd likely take the concept a step further than you would John in that I favor radically different mechanics for very different actions based in part upon the same ground. Thus I like magic systems that use different or layer different mechanics upon the core mechanics. Same with Martial Arts or Mental abilities which in turn should be different from each other.

I consider the modern unification of mechanics in game design to be a step backwards and ineffective for any of my gaming needs.

It's interesting that you like HERO, but can't seem to fit with D&D. If one is building characters and equipment in a manner similar to the official lists- I don't hink it's a issue with combat as such. Rather I wonder if its more a conflict at some level with classes. I find it interesting that in your planned overhaul of D&D, it is classes that take the main hit...

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(Anonymous)
2005-10-18 03:14 pm UTC (link)
This was me by the way.

-gleichmn

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sample charcter record sheets
(Anonymous)
2005-11-14 03:43 am UTC (link)
Greetings,

Do you by chance know of any links to scanned COMPLETED Character Record Sheets (D&D 3.5)? I just created my first D&D 3.5 PC, and I'd love to compare and contrast it to others' sheets.

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