jayloomis ([info]jayloomis) wrote,
@ 2005-12-12 23:42:00
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Player input: learning from the past
I'm a Hero System player from way back. And a GURPS player as well. That school of RPG design had a prominent feature in it's use of character disadvantages. Mechanically speaking, the idea is to trade some options for how you play your character in for more points with which you can buy abilities. The intention is to encourage you, the player, to develop your character beyond the simple archetypes of whatever genre you were playing.

It's an interesting design choice. When coupled with detailed and number-intensive character creation systems such as Hero and GURPS it both encourages players to think about their characters in relation to the setting and the stories they want to tell and it encourages very careful balancing of cost versus gain when creating characters. In myself, and those I know who played those games, the system tended to produce a strange hybrid of story-conscious dramatist and min-maxing powergamer.

At heart, however, the idea of disadvantages is a positive step toward the type of player input that I have been talking about and that I aspire to. Think of this: you are making your character, Spider Man, in Champions. You take a disadvantage that says you have an elderly aunt who gets into trouble. The level at which you take that disadvantage tells the GM how often you want the story to involve your character's relationship with his aunt, and how useful you want her to be to him in general. You are very clearly creating an understanding between yourself and the GM on the metagame level.

It rarely worked that way in practice, though. My long experience showed that most players ended up using disadvantages as ways to get points and often hoped and prayed that the enemies that they chose for their characters never showed up to ruin the adventure. Likewise, most GMs seemed to pull out disadvantages far less than they ought by the rules--favoring instead to focus on the plot that they had come up with beforehand. That's not to say that people didn't use character disadvantages as tools with which to define play, but the combination of the mechanics with cost benefits hampered their usefulness as such.

A slightly better tool for getting the player's desires into the game came with 7th Sea many years later (perhaps earlier, but not in a game I've played). The concept of backgrounds in that game gives the player the option of investing in aspects of the character's past and then getting a reward when the background comes into play. So you pay for your messed-up backstory at character creation, but then reap rewards when it comes back to haunt the character during play. The brilliance of this is that players have invested, so thay have incentive to prod the GM into bringing their stuff into the game.

Even more interesting is the idea of Spiritual Attributes introduced in The Riddle of Steel. I haven't played this one yet, so I can't comment directly, but the idea is that things the player decides are important to his character have mechanical weight.

I'm still struggling with what I think is the best way to arrange the understanding between players about what is important and how to proceed with that knowledge into storytelling. But I do think analysis of some older ideas is well worth the time.



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[info]jhkimrpg
2005-12-13 08:19 pm UTC (link)
First of all, a historical note. As you say, dIsadvantages originated in Champions, which appeared in 1981. As far as I know, rewarding for disadvantages as they appeared in play first appeared in Theatrix (1993). It also appeared in The Babylon Project (1997) before 7th Sea (1999).

The problem I have with rewards for disadvantage appearance is that it encourages odd behavior on the part of the PC. The player is rewarded if their PC puts her loved ones in harms way, exposes her weaknesses, and so forth. That is the opposite of what the PC should rationally be doing. The PC should be struggling to keep his weaknesses hidden. And in games like The Babylon Project and 7th Sea, it's hard for the player to have weaknesses appear except through their PC. In my opinion, the GM should be rewarded for bringing disadvantages in. However, most games aren't designed for distributed or rotating GMing, so that doesn't work well.

Actually, I think the Champions approach of dictating a certain frequency is fine in principle. The problem is that particularly with a larger group of PCs, the number of Hunteds and DNPCs is unwieldy and you'll often get impossible to handle results. I think that this should have been solved by some sort of group PC design limits -- and a more flexible appearance mechanism.

The larger issue of how to balance player input is a tricky one, which I'm still pondering.

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[info]thededine
2005-12-13 10:11 pm UTC (link)
The player is rewarded if their PC puts her loved ones in harms way, exposes her weaknesses, and so forth. That is the opposite of what the PC should rationally be doing.

This is totally dependent on stance and player power. If the player is only able to act through the character based on information available to the character, then yes, you're asking the player to make his character act contrary to his own best interests. Now, as a minor note, real people don't always act in their own best interests, so that's not totally infeasible, but it is, at the very least, unwieldy.

In games which allow the player greater power and frees them up from actor stance, letting them introduce fiction from outside the character's abilities and information, this problem pretty much dissolves. The player gets rewarded for making his character's life hard. Nothin' wrong with that.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2005-12-13 10:45 pm UTC (link)
I don't think this entirely solves the problem.

Your solution means that the player is both introducing weaknesses and then playing the character overcoming those weaknesses. That's problematic, in my experience. While it's possible for the player to out-of-character try to hit the weaknesses, and then in-character try to cover them up -- that's seems difficult to play simultaneously. It seems an enormous temptation for these to become token gestures, where the weakness shows up only just enough for the reward (i.e. causing the least problems at the best possible times).

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[info]ewilen
2005-12-13 11:42 pm UTC (link)
Even if you forget about trying to enforce the character/player divide in the name of immersion, it's always hard to both propose and resolve a conflict in an interesting way. The two sides have to be isolated from each other in some way.

The other day I had my first taste of Polaris, and what seems to be going on there is: the player gets rewarded if the GM makes the character's life hard. Or at least the player is compensated, because if the GM (person opposite you) does something you don't like, and your last resort (a die roll) fails, you have a chance of improving so that you're more likely to win future die rolls. I think there's also a systemic buffer against how badly your character can be screwed over until the stakes are sufficiently high.

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[info]thededine
2005-12-14 12:47 am UTC (link)
I think it's important to distinguish between introducing a conflict, introducing an obstacle, and introducing a disadvantage.

We like to say that the GM introduces and pushes conflicts to which the players respond, but the players introduce their own conflicts by exerting player initiative in unforeseen ways. "I climb up the castle wall!" the player declares, totally ignoring the guards that the GM has bullying the shopkeeper outside. So anybody introduces conflict.

However, only the GM (or player-opposite-you, whatever -- point being, not you) introduces or portrays the obstacles in a conflict. Playing both sides is called alternately "talking to yourself" or worse, "writing a novel" and neither of those is roleplaying, which is at root collaborative. It's absolutely correct that playing your own obstacle is rather boring.

But that's different from introducing a disadvantage against a particular obstacle in a particular conflict. Once the conflict is stated and the obstacle is introduced, it can be the GM or the player who introduces applicable weaknesses. I've seen this in the most vanilla play possible, where I'd introduce something to be overcome and the player would pipe up, "And this disadvantage applies here, right?" and I put on a straight face and act like I intended that the entire time.

Point being, it's the third bit that actually does the characterization that disadvantages seek to provide. Conflicts and obstacles do not characterize; the address of that conflict and obstacle characterizes, and the address is affected by the character's disadvantages. If I want to make the address of conflict the player's purview, then I want to give him control of the whole thing -- including the manifestation of his disadvantages (and advantages).

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[info]ewilen
2005-12-14 01:47 am UTC (link)
Josh, I think you're making things a little more complicated than necessary. Here's why: introducing an obstacle is 100% identical to proposing a conflict. Either that, or we need to look a little more carefully at what a conflict is. Consider that "I climb the castle wall!" may be no more a declaration of conflict than "I cross the street!"

Also, I'm not quite sure I understand your last paragraph, particularly what you mean by "address".

Finally, "disadvantages" can be handles for conflict all by themselves. "Disadvantage: skirt-chaser" is basically giving permission to be thrown into situations where the character gets into trouble because of beautiful women. But if we rely on the player to maneuver himself into those situations, he's likely to find it difficult to play both sides of the conflict honestly.

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[info]thededine
2005-12-13 10:07 pm UTC (link)
I once had a player get pissed off at me for using his Flaw: Mistaken Identity (World of Darkness) in the game. Didn't I know he only took that as unimportant color that would never actually impact his life?

You're spot-on that there was no incentive provided for making GURPS character disadvantages affect play; from what I played, 7th Sea Backgrounds never actually worked, because, while there was an incentive to include them, the incentive was the player's and the power to include them was the GM's. Putting the incentive and the power into the hands of one person -- give the GM more challenge-points if he includes a player's disad, or give the player more XP/effectiveness if he includes his own disad -- should fix this problem, but I have yet to see how that actually works out in play.

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The Meat of My Point
[info]jayloomis
2005-12-14 06:25 am UTC (link)
...the incentive was the player's and the power to include them was the GM's. Putting the incentive and the power into the hands of one person -- give the GM more challenge-points if he includes a player's disad, or give the player more XP/effectiveness if he includes his own disad -- should fix this problem, but I have yet to see how that actually works out in play.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, though I didn't articulate it last night. The problem historically has been that the player gets an immediate reward for coming up with some information about the character's background or personality, but the GM is the one who determines whether it has any impact during play. The only mechanical incentive present is for the player to take the disadvantage (or whatever the system calls it). The GM has no incentive to use it.

This adds up to the player being unable to reliably form an understanding about what he wants his character's story to be about.

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Experience Dice in Scattershot
[info]fang_langford
2005-12-19 09:13 pm UTC (link)
Hiya Jay,

Sorry I’m late! I just wanted to toss a few unpolished ideas on the heap.

I hear what you are saying about olde school Champions; I played it too. A long time ago, I was very big on the chara write-up being a covenant between player and gamemaster. To that end, I created the Experience Dice system for the game I was working on called Scattershot. It vaguely collected Champions’ and GURPS’ DisAds, Riddle of Steel’s SAs, and I guess something like 7th Sea’s backgrounds. And put more teeth into them (I think...I hope).

It got around John’s “odd behavior” for DisAds like DNPC or Hunted, by making them the responsibility of the Gamemaster (as well as giving the players tools to enforce them OoC). It wasn’t as front-loaded as Champions and GURPS in terms of rewards, too. Certain types of Ads and DisAds worked well invoked by the player, the rest are dictated to be founding points of the ongoing game (what we called Genre Expectations).

We found that there were significant differences between how each stance could use them (or not), but as usage was guided by the Genre Expectations, this presented only minor problems. One caveat to know is that Scattershot was meant to be the first ‘Transitional’ game to be presented at the Forge; it had a lot of different styles and stances to cater to.

John makes a good point that player-introduced complications AND resolutions is highly problematic, but no one seems to make much point about when the player passively notes the situation presented invokes their disadvantage. Something like this is not in the chara’s best interest and Experience Dice are a reward for playing out the DisAd.

Experience Dice were an unabashed attempt to incentivize playing around the “understanding” you spoke about instead of potentially ignoring it. It captures that, both with the Genre Expectations as an “understanding” about the game and it’s potential content, and the chara write-up as an “understanding” of the ‘place’ for the chara. (And had the side-effect of incentivizing letting more literary games hose the chara at the ‘usual’ point.)

You make a very good point about few of these systems offering incentives for the gamemaster to make use of any of the material. I don’t think incentives work in this type of play imbalance. In Champions, there was no incentive for the gamemaster to use a Hunted or a DNPC except to avoid social pressure for ignoring explicit elements of a chara’s design. Rather than looking for a reward for the player who has everything (the gamemaster), we thought to stigmatize or sort of punish the bad behavior. Since this kind of ‘naughty’ behavior is a result of the gamemaster choosing to prioritize their content over that of the player, we take that away. A gamemaster who doesn’t ignore chara design does not lose anything.

The unfortunate part is I was never able to crystallize an official Genre Expectation that would have allowed Scattershot to go into playtest. It all looks good on paper, but who can tell if it would work. I’m offering this little trip down memory lane as an example of what could be done to systematize the “understanding” between player and gamemaster. Hope it helps.

Fang

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[info]ewilen
2005-12-13 10:36 pm UTC (link)
Now that I've chatted about this kind of thing online lately, I've gone from being rather unhappy with the overall GURPS disadvantage system to thinking that it might work for me if I use it exactly as you describe in your third paragraph. That is, the GM should just forget about creating "his own adventures" that the PCs stumble onto, and instead use the Ads/Disads in the group (maybe based on appropriate dierolls) to construct each new adventure.

Yet it's pretty obvious that Steve Jackson et. al. barely thought of this when they wrote the game, since the sample adventure and whatever modules I saw (like Harkwood) were just straightforward scenarios for generic adventurers.

Now, I have nothing against generic adventurers (often combined with a "develop in play" approach), but conceptualizing play in those terms is exactly what turns Disadvantages into something that both the GM and players want to ignore.

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[info]thededine
2005-12-14 12:32 am UTC (link)
This is how we played GURPS for the last, oh, five years of the ten years I played GURPS. Players make characters, GM takes copies, makes an adventure that addresses everybody's ads, disads, skills, etc. If somebody made a hunter, there'd be hunting involved; if someone was arachnophobic, there'd be spiders involved (we had lots of that one). This solves the inclusion-of-character problem on the social contract level; players knew that putting something on their character sheet was asking for it to appear in the game. I can't see playing any other way.

You might also take another look at Harkwood. Most of GURPS published adventure books are hugely customizable. In Harkwood in specific, it lays out like two dozen main characters and has the GM pick one to be the conspirator, one to be the henchman, and one to be the royal spy (or something similar -- it's been a while). Additionally, GURPS' modularity made it easy to modify stats to address characters ads/disads/skills -- it could be as easy as adding or removing one stat, which only changes the NPC's point total.

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