Reality Sucks...
I wrote this post a couple of days ago, at home (where we have an OLD computer, no internet access), but didn't get a chance to post it when I was in briefly on Friday. It connects with some recent discussion in virgule (and a recent post in savageseraph's lj), but I haven't learned the "link" commands yet (when I tried it, following a friend's instructions, nothing came up the way she said it would--could be technical problems as well). But what the heck--after reading savageseraph's post, remembered I had this and decided to post...
I've been thinking about this issue since reading some of the prohibitions and "warnings" on the FPS archives against RPS (the "immorality" and "illegality" of it all) and have already posted some thoughts on it in some of the recent threads on virgule (where I'll cross post this as well as in my lj). What I'm saying isn't that original--when I talked to savageseraph a few weeks ago and started laying out this theory, she said she'd seen others saying more or less the same thing--and I'm not even sure it applies to all RPS. I only know that it applies to mine.....
First, as hederahelix argued in her presentation at the conference we were all at in March (a major defining moment for me which is why I keep talking about it), to an extent, media FPS always has an element of the actors in it (at the least, the physical descriptions--but I'd say, in a metanarrative sense, even more--that is, the readers of TREK or X-FILES FPS who are fans of the shows have the actors and "outside" knowledge in mind as they're reading, so the "actors" as "real people" exist in a certain relationship to the FPS stories). (And I'd say most of the LOTR FPS I read has the films in mind--writers are "blending" elements of the book and movie canons as well.)
Second, I think that in some ways at least some of the RPS I've read and written featuring the actors from LOTR at times has the actors' performances as characters (past and present) in it as well. So there's what I want to call a triangulation between the actors as "real" people and the roles they've created in the past (certainly in the FPS, a lot of the writers enjoy mixing characters from the various actors' pasts in some amazing ways). By triangulation, I mean a character can be based on many/multiple sources of inspiration: "factual" information about the actors, elements of their roles/characters as well as their characters in LOTR; and, also, many fics show the writers' own experiences and knowledge about some element of the story (easier to write what one knows, fun too). So most writers (I'd bet) are well aware they're not trying to create the "real" people. So it's a bummer that the name of the genre has "real people" in it. And that outsiders get all weirded out by it, some to the point of what I'd consider a different kind of insanity...
I'm going to use myself as an example because I cannot speak with authority about anyone else and don't want to insult them, though I'd love to hear what other writers think and am trying to think up some questions about this issue!. Certainly my own sense of Sean Bean's "persona" I've gathered from the special features and the interviews I've read is NOTHING LIKE the Sean Bean character I've been working with the past few weeks in "Behind the Scenes." Quite the opposite. I see his "persona" in the interviews as much shyer, reserved (he keeps ducking his head, not looking at interviewer/camera directly). But I wanted a higher energy character, one majorly into playing the dominant role, and being the main one interested in dominance/ submission games with that element being something my character was in conflict with "Viggo" about. I wanted a contrast with the characters of "Viggo" and "David" that had been established in the series, so I ignored my own sense of that actor's persona and went ahead with the fictional one I wanted. (Heck, as I tell my creative writing students-being a writer is the closest thing we get to being a Creator, so you gotta learn to go with it and enjoy the POWER!)
And yet the RPS characters are not totally (originally) fictional either--there is an evocation of the actors (or, why not make them OC, make up names, etc.)
So it's that boundary/border that's so hard to pin down (as all borders are). The more I think about it, the more I see what I'm doing as "role playing slash"--I'm creating "roles" that I would love to see these actors "play." (My theatre background shoots up from the buried depths here, as it's been doing lately.)
Sometimes these roles draw on "facts" from their lives (as far as I know--since my source of these facts are web sites, media, interviews, public "media" performances, the "facts" could be out and out lies--for example, dates of birth!) But then I have written plays using "facts" or situations from my own life and creating a character that isn't really "me" because nothing in a narrative can be "real" in the sense of the messiness and inconclusiveness of real life. And no fictional character can be anything like a real person in any meaningful way.
We probably like narratives and stories in part because of that distance from real life, the greater 'simplicity' of narratives compared to real life, etc. And the "narratives" of slash (OTP, happy endings, romance gone wrong, first time, etc.) are of course not unique to slash as I'm sure lots of people (writing slash AND studying slash) have pointed out. Those plot structures/narrative structures are floating around out there and have never been "real" (that fiction which tries to replicate "real life" usually is irritating and darn hard to read..)
So, role playing slash. Gets me out of the "reality" bind very neatly....because in so many ways reality really sucks which is probably why I like writing and reading so much. (Nasty stuff happening on our campus making me and Entwife v. depressed, but I won't go into that now. Too depressed to even write about it.)
I've been thinking about this issue since reading some of the prohibitions and "warnings" on the FPS archives against RPS (the "immorality" and "illegality" of it all) and have already posted some thoughts on it in some of the recent threads on virgule (where I'll cross post this as well as in my lj). What I'm saying isn't that original--when I talked to savageseraph a few weeks ago and started laying out this theory, she said she'd seen others saying more or less the same thing--and I'm not even sure it applies to all RPS. I only know that it applies to mine.....
First, as hederahelix argued in her presentation at the conference we were all at in March (a major defining moment for me which is why I keep talking about it), to an extent, media FPS always has an element of the actors in it (at the least, the physical descriptions--but I'd say, in a metanarrative sense, even more--that is, the readers of TREK or X-FILES FPS who are fans of the shows have the actors and "outside" knowledge in mind as they're reading, so the "actors" as "real people" exist in a certain relationship to the FPS stories). (And I'd say most of the LOTR FPS I read has the films in mind--writers are "blending" elements of the book and movie canons as well.)
Second, I think that in some ways at least some of the RPS I've read and written featuring the actors from LOTR at times has the actors' performances as characters (past and present) in it as well. So there's what I want to call a triangulation between the actors as "real" people and the roles they've created in the past (certainly in the FPS, a lot of the writers enjoy mixing characters from the various actors' pasts in some amazing ways). By triangulation, I mean a character can be based on many/multiple sources of inspiration: "factual" information about the actors, elements of their roles/characters as well as their characters in LOTR; and, also, many fics show the writers' own experiences and knowledge about some element of the story (easier to write what one knows, fun too). So most writers (I'd bet) are well aware they're not trying to create the "real" people. So it's a bummer that the name of the genre has "real people" in it. And that outsiders get all weirded out by it, some to the point of what I'd consider a different kind of insanity...
I'm going to use myself as an example because I cannot speak with authority about anyone else and don't want to insult them, though I'd love to hear what other writers think and am trying to think up some questions about this issue!. Certainly my own sense of Sean Bean's "persona" I've gathered from the special features and the interviews I've read is NOTHING LIKE the Sean Bean character I've been working with the past few weeks in "Behind the Scenes." Quite the opposite. I see his "persona" in the interviews as much shyer, reserved (he keeps ducking his head, not looking at interviewer/camera directly). But I wanted a higher energy character, one majorly into playing the dominant role, and being the main one interested in dominance/ submission games with that element being something my character was in conflict with "Viggo" about. I wanted a contrast with the characters of "Viggo" and "David" that had been established in the series, so I ignored my own sense of that actor's persona and went ahead with the fictional one I wanted. (Heck, as I tell my creative writing students-being a writer is the closest thing we get to being a Creator, so you gotta learn to go with it and enjoy the POWER!)
And yet the RPS characters are not totally (originally) fictional either--there is an evocation of the actors (or, why not make them OC, make up names, etc.)
So it's that boundary/border that's so hard to pin down (as all borders are). The more I think about it, the more I see what I'm doing as "role playing slash"--I'm creating "roles" that I would love to see these actors "play." (My theatre background shoots up from the buried depths here, as it's been doing lately.)
Sometimes these roles draw on "facts" from their lives (as far as I know--since my source of these facts are web sites, media, interviews, public "media" performances, the "facts" could be out and out lies--for example, dates of birth!) But then I have written plays using "facts" or situations from my own life and creating a character that isn't really "me" because nothing in a narrative can be "real" in the sense of the messiness and inconclusiveness of real life. And no fictional character can be anything like a real person in any meaningful way.
We probably like narratives and stories in part because of that distance from real life, the greater 'simplicity' of narratives compared to real life, etc. And the "narratives" of slash (OTP, happy endings, romance gone wrong, first time, etc.) are of course not unique to slash as I'm sure lots of people (writing slash AND studying slash) have pointed out. Those plot structures/narrative structures are floating around out there and have never been "real" (that fiction which tries to replicate "real life" usually is irritating and darn hard to read..)
So, role playing slash. Gets me out of the "reality" bind very neatly....because in so many ways reality really sucks which is probably why I like writing and reading so much. (Nasty stuff happening on our campus making me and Entwife v. depressed, but I won't go into that now. Too depressed to even write about it.)
now, it may be different in lotr, b/c you're dealing with various levels of info (i.e., popslash lacks the fictional text with possibly the concert performance getting closest?) and as far as i know there are no clear prohibitions to family etc. like y'all seem to have...but still...i'm quite a bit puzzled how you can write a rp character, realize he's completely unlike the real person, and not try to change him to fit into the canonical version (i.e., the character/person you observe in interviews)...is that a common phenomenon in lotrips???
'real lives'
I don't even know the LOTR RPS well enough to comment--have just been reading on sons_of_gondor which is limited in terms of pairing, but I'm betting there's no one answer. Would be fun to post some meme questions on sons and some of the other sides and see if people would talk about it all.
i'm quite a bit puzzled how you can write a rp character, realize he's completely unlike the real person, and not try to change him to fit into the canonical version (i.e., the character/person you observe in interviews)...is that a common phenomenon in lotrips???
I'm a bit weird? (and proud of it!)
I'm taking the "you" here to be addressed to me, not a general one although you end up with a question about the fandom! But have to clarify I'm writing a rp character who is UNLIKE my SENSE of the actor's public persona as I've seen it expressed in a couple of interviews on the DVD and a few print interviews (one in which he says he's reserved)--as you note later, that may not be the 'real person.'
One canonical thing about Sean Bean I've seen in a number of fics is the football--which I totally leave out because it so bores me, and I didn't want to look it up. Other slash writers could have a different sense of Bean from the same material than I do (which is why I think your point about the slipperiness of canon in this arena is a good one).
How can I do it? Because I'm writing sexual fantasy and I like it? I want to triangulate with SOME of the "factoids" about Sean B (and I'm realizing I've been heavily influenced by a lot of the Vig/Bean fics on sons_of_gondor), but I also wanted that "kind" of character for the storyarc or plot I was developing....I am focused on the interaction between these three characters (and keep in mind than when I created my "David Wenham," there was VERY little information on him on the web, in the media, and zippo in the fan magazine or DVD because none of the TWO TOWERS stuff has come up--so I have very few factoids to work with in creating "David.")
As to whether or not MY sense of this whole process is a common phenomenon among the LOTR RPS fandom--whew. I
dunno. I am strongly inclined to think there will be a spectrum out there, from the people who insanely want to believe their characters are REAL, to those like me who don't really give too much of a darn about "REALITY" if it's a good story, with most people falling somewhere in between. And even there, I bet there's individual choice about which "reality" factoids they chose to emphasize. I, for example, NEVER mention and don't intend to the fact that Sean B. and Viggo have been married (or that they have kids). Zipped that right out as well, don't want to go there, not even having them think about it or mention it. Others do mention it.
Based on all my prior experience, I would take a wild guess (which probably sounds arrogant as hell, and I'm sort of sorry about that) that I'm not representative of the "mainstream" in this regard. I tend to find myself out in the far left (hah) field in most situations/groups I'm in.
Plus, bear in mind, that I was a creative writer with some twenty plus years experiences writing original stuff BEFORE getting into slash (more if you could my first published poem in junior high) (and I would take a bet that my academic creative writing colleagues would, for the most part, slit their wrists before writing DERIVATIVE ficton). I'm a stone fan, BUT
I'm also a writer. And the RPS "feels" to me much more like OF (see "A Stunning Revelation" in my lj for more on that topic). Must run back to class--they're in groups, but our time is up.
go right ahead
A slight addendum to this that came to mind in the shower this morning as I was thinking over the discussion in response to savageseraph's post was that a number of these actors have played some pretty villainous roles--reading a review of David's work in The Boys (am spacing out on title, but think that's it), it's pretty clear the role is that of rapist and thug. (David also played priest/saint in another film which I doubt I'll watch--hate that kind of film). And yet SANE people are able to distinguish between actor and role (a lot of actors have hilarious stories about fans who cannot so distinguish, and not all of them are totally insane, just buying into what they see).
So for me thinking of what I write as role playing slash works in that context: roles I'd LOVE (drool drool drool) to see these guys play. For some reason, this whole activity reminds me more than anything else of playwriting--and I note an awful lot of my RPS stuff is heavily oriented toward dialogue, with minimal exposition and description of setting--and most of the description/narration is involving sex, heh.
Re: go right ahead
Done. Thanks!
But you might also want to link or connect or mention it with savageseraph's recent posting
*G* Actually, I hit up both of you with the same question at exactly the same time since these posts are so interconnected. Was just waiting for the go-ahead from both of you.
(a lot of actors have hilarious stories about fans who cannot so distinguish, and not all of them are totally insane, just buying into what they see).
What I find interesting is comparing actors who, unlike most fans, cannot manage the distinction between "the fan" and "the crazy." So many of them appear to get wrapped up in the idea that fan=fear. (I'm thinking Kate Mulgrew as I type this right now, but I know there's others.) On the other hand, Alyson Hannigan (Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer), has this lovely story (told on Conan O'Brien) about a horse trainer that showed up with horse in tow outside her house one day; as she's telling the audience and Conan about this occurence the crowd and interviewer make the noises one normally hears in conjunction with phrases like "Those insane fans!" Alyson, however, uses the anecdote as a way to talk about how the horse trainer merely wanted to share her art with Alyson, just as Alyson has, via Buffy, shared her art with her fans. An interesting perspective that's not heard enough, I don't think.
this whole activity reminds me more than anything else of playwriting
*G* Not having ever written a play, I can't really comment (although I wish I could see one of yours performed), but I suspect our previous fiction and non-fiction writing informs how exactly we approach fanfic... I wonder if you could make a link between the types of academic writing you (the general "you") does and the type of fic you crank out... Hmm... Must think on that one a bit. ^_^
Re: go right ahead
Sheesh. Apparently lately I am unable to completely type out thoughts. That should read: "What I find interesting is comparing actors who, unlike most fans, cannot manage the distinction between 'the fan' and 'the crazy' with those that can and do."
Re: go right ahead
Fans/Fears/Sharing: great story, although I suppose from another perspective, for anybody, showing up without invitation/dropping in is (in some necks of the wood, like where Entwife grew up in New York City considered "rude" and "insane"). And while I can see your point, it's also true that while any one fan is nifty, hoards and hoards of them could eat up your life. I actually have sort of the opposite fan belief--I don't always want to meet the people whose work I adore because so much of the "relationship" I have is with their work, not with them. For example, Joanna Russ worked in the English department where I got my doctoral degree. Her work has been like a touchstone for me since I was 14. I didn't ever try to go meet her (granted, she was having a lot of illness then, and approaching retirement). I was too afraid of making a fool of myself. The "goddess" I'd built up in my head over the years of reading her work didn't need to be affected by the basic human being (who might be a bit grumpy at being interrupted at work, with good reason).
I sometimes feel the same way about students who feel they have a perfect right to see me at any time (or call at any time before I stopped handing out my phone number). They need to consider the fact that while I am only one of their four/five teachers, they are one of perhaps 50 students I have, and I do not really need to be available to them 24/7 (I've had them call my office on SUndays--the freaky thing is, I was there!)
Hmmm....academic writing and fan fiction. No I don't think I see any major connection, but it's worth thinking about. OTOH, except for a desire to write a bondage sestina (heh), I'm not finding any great desire to express fan fic in poems. Not gonna have Sean write a love sonnet to Viggo, snerk....
Re: go right ahead
Here's the link to the specific
showing up without invitation/dropping in is...considered "rude" and "insane"
Oh, heck, I'm not saying that the horse trainer thing isn't a weird occurence -- I guess what I'm essentially getting at is that she didn't automatically view it as a threatening situation.
hoards and hoards of them could eat up your life.
Very true. I suppose I see interaction with fans as part of the job of a celebrity. These are the people who consume your product (which essentially, IS the celebrity themselves), and as such, I see at least limited participation with fans (not at home or off-duty, of course, but in public forums specifically set up for these purposes, like signings and appearances) as something that they don't really have much right to complain about, nor do they have a right to deliberately discuss fans as "crazy" when these are the very people that keep them in work. There's a trade-off going on here, and some of it is an exchange of personal time for fame.
I sometimes feel the same way about students who feel they have a perfect right to see me at any time
Oh, students are an entirely different animal, as far as I'm concerned. I don't think most of them really conceive of professors as having any purpose other than to sit in the office and wait for them to appear.
No I don't think I see any major connection, but it's worth thinking about.
I'm thinking more in terms of style than anything else.
Not gonna have Sean write a love sonnet to Viggo, snerk....
*LOL* Not that I was worried about that, but thank goodness. ^_^
Re: go right ahead
Fans=crazy: I think that in general the word fan makes most people think of "crazy," so it's not surprising the celebrities have picked that up as well given that they probably have to deal with that sub-category of fans who are in fact crazy. Oh, definitely, the public forums and signings and such are a part of the price one pays (though thinking of writers in general, and myself in particular, it's true that writers are often not very articulate in person and HATE those sort of events--I judge this by the hilarious essays a number of them have written on the topic). But "stalker" behavior is something entirely different. (A lot of the celebs I've read also complain about the stalker media as well....) The gateway salesperson (who was wonderful) who sold us our notebook mentioned one time while we were talking that she had managed a theatre once and complained about the "freaks" who showed up to wait in line for STAR WARS (made her live hell--sort of same story as poor book clerks dealing with HP fans). I did mention we preferred to be called fans!
STYLE: (OH no not that word again, please, I don't wanta talk about it, moan, beg, whimper--go see the whole thread cathexys and I had on STYLE to understand why I don't even wanta go there). Except mumble mumble I suppose the vocabulary/diction thing (that hederahelix was talking about a while ago) is a problem for me as well--though if I chose to see some of the actors as fairly articulate and able to use big words and speak in complex sentences (like VIGGO), I could probably justify it if I had to. But I do have to keep taking my semi-colons out (took me two years to shift from essay writing style to story telling style with the help of a great writing group). (Who only occasionally complained about my poetic diction and the occasional problem of all characters sounding alike.)
You should be releived (re: sonnet)--I write really really really sucky sonnets.....trust me. You don't wanta go there.
CONGITATIONS ON "REAL" VS "ROLE"
Don't have much to say except that I agree with your take on "RPS" (no surprise by now, I guess! agreeing with you, I mean) being something like actors playing roles.
Up to very recently I had refused to read any RPS at all because the idea seemed creepy and intrusive, almost violating the actors' privacy. And some people in fandom obviously have VERY BIG ISSUES in distinguishing RPS from "real life." (I think you're right about eliminating the word "real" altogether from the genre and using "role" - really clarifying.)
When I finally gave up my principles altogether and started reading RPS, I felt similarly to you about roles, only I defined it as seeing the actors in movie roles, since I kept seeing and hearing them "act out" the story I was reading. That way it didn't bother me how far out a plot was - it was like seeing them in a movie! (Although I have to admit I liked the characters to maintain some sense of connection with my ideas of the actors' personalities - when they got too out-of-character I wondered why the author didn't just write an "original" character.) Some of my favorite stories use the actors' looks and what we ASSUME are their characters, only in stories NOT set in the actors lives. Uluithiel's "Beekeeper" is one of my favorite examples, and Trianne's "Road To Arbra" should be another if we could just tie her down and make her write more on that story. (Not being ungrateful, just avidly impatient, Trianne!)
Here I said I didn't have much to say. (blushes) Maybe I meant not much INTERESTING to say.
Hope you are enjoying your break!
Re: CONGITATIONS ON "REAL" VS "ROLE"
Re: CONGITATIONS ON "REAL" VS "ROLE"
Re: CONGITATIONS ON "REAL" VS "ROLE"
Re: CONGITATIONS ON "REAL" VS "ROLE"
Hope you're enjoying your time up there in the cool(er) Northwest.
Re: CONGITATIONS ON "REAL" VS "ROLE"
Re: CONGITATIONS ON "REAL" VS "ROLE"
There are those people out here who have serious "reality" problems (the stalkers, the people who fixate on celebrities, the people who are probably insane in some specific medical sense)--although as I've said elsewhere (you might want to check out savageseraph's post that caras_galadhon also linked to metablog because she has some great things to say as well), those people pre-existed internet fandoms, and should not be held up as the "model" of RPS writers. (I forget what the official Latin Term for this logical/argument fallacy is, but it's picking the most extreme position and claiming it is representative of the 'whole' group or argument.)
And the arguments made by the FPS writers that RPS is illegal/immoral or MORE illegal/immoral than FPS just do not hold up to a strict rhetorical analysis!
The other genre you mention here (the actors in OTHER situations, historical periods) is interesting (though I still say the AU story where the LOTR actors are vampires just weirded me out a bit) and worth thinking about as a development/variant.
And the 'personality' issue is one that's generated a bunch of dialogue--that is, how much of a sense of personality can a fan get from media and public "presentation," how much do we even have one personality as such, what is the 'self' etc. I commented that my "Sean Bean" in "Scenes" is NOT like the sense I get of the actor in the DVD special features and some print interviews (I think he's a bit more shy and reserved), though I could then switch around and say that I am very shy/reserved in some social settings (COCKTAIL parties where I am surrounded by strangers usually end up with me backed into a corner with a hunted look on my face and a quick exit) compared to others (put me in a hotel room with four friends at the fantastic conference and I can talk up a storm, and telling them I am "shy" would probably result in gales of laughter). So for my story, I needed a more dynamic/dominant/talky "Sean" and wrote him that way. Yet I hear from friends that in a lot of the Sean/Viggo fics, he's usually presented as the submissive one in major ways.
And, lo and behold! I agree with you. Most specifically about the role playing thing. That's how I think of it both in reading and in writing it - that we have cast the actors in these particular roles. Probably we type cast them.
While it may be illegal to make money at it, I can't find it immoral or disrespectful in any way.