ginmar ([info]ginmar) wrote,
@ 2005-10-17 09:37:00
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Anger and guns
From [info]jazzqueen comes an interesting comment that makes me once again remember why I despise the 'women should just arm themselves' argument against rape. Arming women does not change the rape culture we live in. It does not change the men who rape or the men who passively support them or just ignore what they do. It puts it all on women without settling these rather glaring questions:

Exactly when are women allowed to use deadly force to stop a rape? How will they prove that Mr. Nice White College Boy meant to rape them? After all, a great many people still believe that short skirts incite rape, that only bruises mean she fought back, and that if she didn't want to get raped, she wouldn't have been there, done that, dressed like that, or so forth. Most of all, she wouldn't have assumed a basic level of safety only available to men amongst men. Rape, we are told, wll always be with us, so just deal with it, okay? Anything that focuses on women ignores the rapists.

But the post on anger produced this comment, and it's striking. Here you go:

What you and other commenters have said about anger got me thinking. I'm not afraid to express my anger when provoked, but one thing I've noticed is that people often laugh.
Actually, I say people, but the faces that come to mind all belong to men. See, I go clubbing a lot because I enjoy dancing to loud music. What usually happens is that some idiot thinks that because my clothes are tight he can grab my ass. I turn and get angry. Invariably, these guys laugh at me and are all "what's the big deal?"
One particularly bad night I had been groped maybe ten times in under three hours. I was standing outside a club waiting to get in, feeling really on edge. Someone standing behind me grabs my ass. I whirl and almost punch the guy in the face before I realise I know him; he's a friend of a friend. I glare at him and say "that was not cool." He grins. I repeat, vehemently, "that was not cool." He says "aw, c'mon, I was just joking around!"
I lost my head completely. I started shouting at him. He stood there and laughed, and when I got angrier he started shushing me. Shushing me. Like I was a child throwing a tantrum.
A bouncer friend of mine came over at that point, told the creep to get lost and ushered me inside.
I just... he laughed. Like I was just being silly.
This was in August. I've since stopped wearing skirts when I go clubbing, because a friend of mine said when I told her about the incident: "What do you expect, wearing a short skirt like that?"
I still get groped.


It's so silly for women to think they have rights, you know. Men have rights. Women have whatever is left when all the good parts are gone. Men are the players, women the stagehands. When it comes down to it, a woman has no rights that a man has to respect. Why, the idea is laughable.

I've had the same experience as [info]jazzqueen had. I got groped by a guy at a club and I shoved him so hard he stumbled. He got angry. After all, there I was, enticing him. What did I expect? I had made a bargain, and then I was trying to get out of it. What I remember most is his rock bottom belief that I had provoked him, that I was being a tease or something, that he was entitled to touch me. Consent to any guy was assumed. Nobody in the vicinity did anything. He didn't laugh, but he was angry. His rights to grab and grope were being infringed upon.

So, tell me again. How does giving a woman a gun do anything to his attitude? Let's assume a guy gives a woman clear evidence he intends to rape her. First catch: he's unarmed. He may be six inches taller than her, he may outweigh her by fifty pounds of muscle, but here in this country we have a history of totally ignoring any gender differences that do anything but indicate how superior men are. Anything which suggests that men are using their size to intimidate women must be ignored. So we have this unarmd guy and this woman.Does she shoot him before he rapes her? Where's the evidence then that he intended to rape her? If he's not a black guy in an alley, she's SOL. We all know that nice white boys don't commit, you know, real rape. They don't have to, for one thing.

So here's our heroine's choices. She can shoot him and get convicted of a variety of crimes, because you can't just go around shooting guys. The only guys you can shoot are burglars and guys who Don't Look Like Us. So she goes to jail. Then what do the rest of us do? She becomes like Andrea Yates or Susan Smith---the real life version of all those Evil Disney Mothers, while real life male scumbags get tossed into the collective dustbin of consciousness. We can't think ill of those that rule us. We can't look too closely at how they do it.

So tell me how giving women guns without changing the culture will do any damned good at all. It won't protect women, and chances are it will enrage the men who laugh at the idea that a woman has a right to enjoy her body while he does not. I have to say, too, a stray thought occurred to me. Guys who think they have such rights to women's bodies---what do you suppose their attitude is toward other methods of controlling those women's bodies? Do you really think you have to right to do anything with your body if they don't get off on it? Do you think they care about your body except if it gets them off? Do you really think they give a shit at all?

Giving women guns is just going to put more women behind bars. The very men who proclaim that this will solve the problem are removing themselves and their buddies from the responsible party list by suggesting it. "Hey," they whine, "We gave you an option, you chose not to take it. Not our problem any longer."

Here's a clue, guys: real choices are not between awful and worse. Such a choice is no choice at all and the idea that it's okay to offer these 'choices' and only these to women indicates just how little you think we're entitled to. You notice people never offer women real choices? How would you like some independance, some safety, some respect? No, what they offer you is the choice between being raped or being jailed. They think their hands are clean.

Guys who laugh at the idea that you should expect more are not on your side. They are not your friends. And there's lots of them out there.


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[info]vassilissa
2005-10-17 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Exactly when are women allowed to use deadly force to stop a rape?

Right there, exactly there, you put your finger on it.

(Reply to this)


[info]warkitty
2005-10-17 03:23 pm UTC (link)
When I was about 20 in college, I went to a friends place to play D&D. One of the guys in the game got behind me (without being asked) and started rubbing my shoulders. I wasn't thrilled, but decided as long as he stuck with just the shoulders I'd not make anything of it.

Then he started trying to undo my bra.

Before I could even think I'd cracked into his jaw with my elbow. He got all mad at me and started yelling "you bitch, you broke my jaw!"
I answered "you tried to unsnap my bra. You crossed the line. You got hit, and you're jaw isn't broken."
He kept bitching and whining for a while. The other guys (as usual, I was the lone female there) told him to suck it up and not be an ass.

Between that and biting the tongues of men that would try to kiss me without permission... I gained quite the reputation.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)


[info]ginmar
2005-10-17 03:28 pm UTC (link)
I keep remembering a story from one of those posts that turned into a discussion about school. A girl hit a boy who'd groped her and the teacher's response: "You can't just HIT A BOY. You just can't do that." But boys, go the message, can hit and grope girls just fine. They learn this from their dads in childhood, the culture confirms it, and then their buddies cement it with their contempt for women.

Well, you can just hit a boy. You can hit him just fine if he doesn't ask for permission. What takes longer is educating them when they just won't listen and when women are so worthless to them anyway.

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(no subject) - [info]warkitty, 2005-10-17 03:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kefiraahava, 2005-10-17 04:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]erbie, 2005-10-17 04:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ciardhapagan, 2005-10-17 05:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kefiraahava, 2005-10-17 06:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 04:36 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anne_jumps, 2005-10-17 04:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kefiraahava, 2005-10-17 06:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delphyne_, 2005-10-17 05:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 05:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delphyne_, 2005-10-17 05:56 pm UTC (Expand)
well, FGM is done by women - [info]bellatrys, 2005-10-17 07:29 pm UTC (Expand)
a random memory surfaces - [info]bigbigtruck, 2005-10-18 12:39 am UTC (Expand)
Re: a random memory surfaces - [info]kefiraahava, 2005-10-18 01:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lyorn, 2005-10-18 11:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-18 02:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]technocracygirl, 2005-10-20 02:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]daemonnoire, 2005-10-20 02:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anne_jumps, 2005-10-17 04:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]warkitty, 2005-10-17 04:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anne_jumps, 2005-10-17 04:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 04:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]joggingguy, 2005-10-17 05:06 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]neadods, 2005-10-17 07:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rapier, 2005-10-17 05:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]antigone_reborn, 2005-10-18 12:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]anne_jumps, 2005-10-18 12:28 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-10-17 05:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]delphyne_, 2005-10-17 06:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-10-17 07:14 pm UTC (Expand)
Service industry. - [info]jeric_synergy, 2005-10-17 07:58 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Service industry. - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-10-18 01:51 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]3_shubunkin, 2005-10-17 05:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]rikibeth, 2005-10-18 01:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tikvah, 2005-10-17 06:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]little_e_, 2005-10-18 12:45 am UTC (Expand)

[info]neotoma
2005-10-17 03:29 pm UTC (link)
Heck, the right not to be harassed is a joke to most men. I once had a co-worker hiss intimidation at me from three inches away, and when I complained to a supervisor, it was laughed off. It was only the fact that he'd done it to all of us women on the shift, and we went up the chain to the supervisor's supervisor that he got fired.

The really horrible thing is that I froze because I was trying to control my reaction to this man -- the reaction to beat him into the floor. If I had reacted the way my instincts screamed at me to, I'd have been in a lot of trouble -- but I don't know if I stifle my reaction next time something like that happens that it will be the right thing to do.

My male co-workers thought it was *funny* and *cute* when I admitted that was my reaction. It was very dismissive -- the fact that I am a woman and I was willing to attack a man to protect myself was not at all given real consideration.

Guys who laugh at the idea of you protecting yourself aren't your friends either.

(Reply to this)


[info]wlotus
2005-10-17 03:36 pm UTC (link)
Guys who laugh or (in the virtual world) disappear when I express my anger at their actions get cut off. Period. I no longer blame myself for it, either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 03:37 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]wlotus, 2005-10-17 03:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 04:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vaspider, 2005-10-17 05:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]greyladybast, 2005-10-17 09:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tayefeth, 2005-10-17 11:50 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]vaspider, 2005-10-18 12:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 03:51 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ladyxoc
2005-10-17 03:37 pm UTC (link)
Women have a hard enough time explaining why they shot someone who has had documented evidence of beating them and breaking bones time and again. As you pointed out, shooting someone with only INTENT to harm them before the act occurs will result in them being labeled as a hysterical killer man-hating bitch. Hey, it's the dame's fault if she doesn't have a gun, and it's her fault if she does have a gun.

(Reply to this)

anger and guns
[info]tommyonenut
2005-10-17 03:44 pm UTC (link)
if i had a dollar for every time i saw/heard getting groped or hit on unwantingly i could fucking retire.as far as protecting one's self maybe carry mace but the fact of the matter is it is on the guy to keep it in his fucking pants unless SHE wants it out.it is demoralizing hearing the same shit over and over again gin.peace out

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[info]mediumdave
2005-10-17 03:59 pm UTC (link)
I suspect that the folks who make the "women should arm themselves" argument do so precisely because it's ridiculous and impractical...

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 04:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mediumdave, 2005-10-17 07:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]greyladybast, 2005-10-17 09:49 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]gypsypet
2005-10-17 04:16 pm UTC (link)
Funny thing is, despite all of the bravado and "pffft, I'd love it!" reaction if you bring up the hypothetical to a guy....

I would LOVE to see the reaction of some men if they were randomly standing at a bar... in line... hanging out on a dance floor... talking amongst friends... etc... and a completely random girl comes up and just grabs their crotch or ass right there...

But yet we're supposed to be attracted to or turned on by that shit? Oh wait, that means you want my attention! Silly me, what was I thinking?

Riiiiiight.

I quit going to clubs once I realized that the reason I was getting up into the cages and dancing was because it was the only place I wouldn't get groped by random unknowns or hit on by sleaze. Christ, I just wanted to go burn off some energy and stress and enjoy the music!

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 04:41 pm UTC (Expand)
But the Old Testament decrees death - [info]bellatrys, 2005-10-17 07:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2005-10-17 09:08 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 09:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bigbigtruck, 2005-10-18 12:48 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tayefeth, 2005-10-17 11:52 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]lilitou
2005-10-17 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Ugh, a guy dismissing my anger with laughter or saying it's "cute"... Nothing is surer to send me into a (literally) murderous rage. I think that may be one of the ultimate dismissals of a woman, that "Ha! Aww, baby, you're so cute when you're angry. Shh now." God. Just thinking about it makes me want to hurt someone.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 04:43 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]cathrynapple
2005-10-17 04:27 pm UTC (link)
if the "arm yourself" argument was put into practice, would there be an age limit on gun ownership? shoudl we give every well-developed thirteen year old a gun, for christ's sake? every ten year old?

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 04:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]firecatmn, 2005-10-17 08:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]delphyne_
2005-10-17 04:46 pm UTC (link)
Women who killed their rapists would become Aileen Wuornos. Nobody ever takes into account what was done to her by the men she killed before she killed them.

They estimate there are 50,000 rapes a year in the UK. Even if a number of them are committed by the same man that's still thousands of men to be killed. Is that what the apologists want?

I agree with you. It's the view that men have that they have the right to a woman's body that is the problem.

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(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-17 04:57 pm UTC (Expand)

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(no subject) - [info]tommyonenut, 2005-10-17 05:00 pm UTC (Expand)

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[info]vaspider
2005-10-17 05:00 pm UTC (link)
I remember a party where one of the guys present was randomly groping women. No one would stop him, and just shrugged when I got angry. I was, at that point, married, & wearing a loose t-shirt and jeans. He was easily twice my weight, and my ex-husband was, frankly, afraid to tangle with him. (Which I understood. What upset me was the idea that the rest of the guys there -- some of whose girlfriends and wives were receiving the same treatment as I was -- weren't standing up as a group to this guy. Or, hell, that none of the other girls would also tell this guy to fuck the hell off.)

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I wonder how funny they'd find it
[info]bellatrys
2005-10-17 07:11 pm UTC (link)
if some woman turned around and gave them the same grab-squeeze treatment to *their* privates? On the dance floor, in the bar, at the bus-stop, in public. A goose for a goose, a pinch for a pinch--

If this were the routine response they got, I bet it would stop. If even stupid vicious geldings can learn that the consequences of biting humans in the ass are not worth the fun of watching them jump and squeal, then you'd think that the supposedly-more rational side of homo sapiens would figure it out. And wouldn't laugh or think it was funny, either. (Although, if the woman who did it were not at all sorry, not at all apologetic, but solid cast-iron mockery, the direction of flux would possibly be such that their buddies would think it funny, let's all humiliate the the weak monkey in the band, acting as a further deterrent...)

But we can't DO THAT!!! That wouldn't be NICE! It wouldnt be LADYLIKE!!! How can you even imagine squeezing - squeezing a guy's - doing such a thing to, to, to, anyone!?! (And besides he might hurt me [worse] after I did that, and of course *he* can get away with it because he knows no one is going to hurt him, and so the lopsided cycle that we can't talk about because to acknowledge its existence means breaking the thin veneer of lies that keeps us girls from going totally mad, self-perpetuates.)

Because any negative response and carry-through to anti-social male chauvinist behavior, necessarily requires that a woman be Not Nice, and there's nothing worse in the world than a Bitch, after all.

Not even a Rapist is as bad as a Bitch.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: I wonder how funny they'd find it - [info]calieber, 2005-10-19 01:12 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: I wonder how funny they'd find it - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-19 01:19 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]pecunium
2005-10-17 09:05 pm UTC (link)
If one doubts the validity of the problem (that women who use lethal force to defend themselves from rape will be called on the carpet because maybe it wasn't really rape) look at the hullaballoo about the "vagina dentata" the lady designed in S. Africa (where rape is common).

Lot of men are complaining innocent guys might have to go to the doctor to have the thing removed.

Which croggles me, because you have to get your prick at least an inch into her vagina before the thing goes off. Penetration has to occur (and the thing doesn't maim, disfigure or actually damage the penis, it just hurts, and requires special tools to remove).

So they either assume women are so stupid as to forget to remove it, or that innocent guys are forcing their innocent penes (yes, that's the correct plural, thouch penises is acceptable too) into vaginas where the permission was going to be given, but hadn't been arranged yet. They just jumped the gun.

Sheesh.

TK

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[info]collie13
2005-10-17 10:56 pm UTC (link)
I suspect I'm starting to sound a bit repetitive here, but once again, thank you, Gin. While this post was not the first time I've read your thoughts on 'just arm the women,' it was you who made me reconsider the entire concept in a more constructively critical fashion. Darnit, you made me think hard thoughts again! ;)

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[info]karl_moebius
2005-10-17 11:42 pm UTC (link)
I do hate when people cannot respect someone's personal boundaries, and I loathe it even more when they are so hurt! when someone tries to assert their boundaries. I think it's the selfish arrogance, the "well, I like it, so they will too" assumption in the best of cases. Arrgh!

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(no subject) - [info]fiona64, 2005-10-18 12:14 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]karl_moebius, 2005-10-18 04:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-18 04:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]karl_moebius, 2005-10-18 04:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-18 05:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]karl_moebius, 2005-10-18 10:28 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-18 10:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]karl_moebius, 2005-10-18 10:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ginmar, 2005-10-18 10:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]karl_moebius, 2005-10-19 08:35 pm UTC (Expand)
See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs
[info]little_e_
2005-10-18 01:14 am UTC (link)
"One particularly bad night I had been groped maybe ten times in under three hours."

At club the other night I was speaking with an aquaintance about 'club cultures' and he remarked that whenever he and his wife go to the more 'normal' clubs out by fenway she has continual issues--"i just go to get a drink or visit the restroom and i come back and there's three or four guys trying to grope her. They think a short skirt is some sort of invitation or something. Once I came back just in time to see her elbow someone quite violently in the chest because he would not back off." (and believe me, I'd have to be pretty drunk to try and grope his wife because she has some mean fingernails. Of course, the worst I've ever gotten at a goth club was someone rubbing my belly while I was drunk (my one and only time drunk.*)

It's like... why do people assume that expresions of sexuality=the desire to fuck them? If I'm wearing a short skirt and prancing around all sexy or whatever, this has nothing the fuck to do with other people. It is an expression of how I feel about myself. Not them, me. This is something which people at goth/fetish clubs seem generally to understand.

I think there must be something very strange in our culture that I can go to fetish night, by myself, wearing a piece of rope (see picture) and not get groped or assaulted at all (hell, I can do it wearing *candy* and people will ask *permission* before eating any of it) and yet normal people can't even go out to normal clubs while wearing fully-covering clothes and with their husbands in tow without getting groped.

*related observation about clubs: someone drunk is not taken as far as I've seen as an excuse to fuck them. The one time I was drunk (first beer ever, i have no tolerance) friends clustered around me and generally kept an eye on me and kept me away from anyone who looked overly sketchy. Even the fellow who was rubbing my belly was generally just trying to be friendly, methinks. Last friday an aquaintance was literally on-the-floor drunk and, under other circumstances, could have easily been passed off on some horny guy (I mean hell, she started trying to make out with me.) And yet her friends at the club worked to make sure she was superivised for the rest of the evening and then got home safely. (Somewhat ironicly, the friend who most wanted to make out with her passed her off on the friend whom she was yelling at for most of the evening, who drove her home, anyway.)

I had a point other than yay subculture, and i think it was that not everywhere is like this. Some people have gotten the point. some people do take women seriously and don't abuse them and if they can do it, so can everyone else. If the antisocial misfits at the goth and fetish clubs can take care of each other, so can the so-called well adjusted people at the regular club.

Because, you know, it would be nice if the phrase 'frat boy alert' meant only a fashion difference, not 'keep your distance from the groping hands'.

ps: note that my clubbing experiences are not universal and that there are still sketchy icky people at goth clubs. However, no one has *ever* grabbed my ass without permission.

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Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-10-18 02:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]little_e_, 2005-10-18 03:26 am UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]rabidsamfan, 2005-10-18 11:16 am UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]little_e_, 2005-10-18 05:28 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]enname, 2005-10-21 07:55 am UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]riverheart, 2005-10-18 02:04 am UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]little_e_, 2005-10-18 03:29 am UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]hexyhex, 2005-10-18 02:45 am UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs - [info]little_e_, 2005-10-18 03:20 am UTC (Expand)
Re: See, now, this is why I go to goth clubs -