Paul Phillips

I always had you pegged as a Southern Baptist. Thanks for clearing that up!

~Duke

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Wow, thanks for the link. You're right; it was probably named as a joke, but it nonetheless describes me perfectly. I had no idea there was a name for it!

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Interesting. I wouldn't consider myself an apatheist-- I'm actually quite interested in the spiritual question, on both an individual and a cosmic level. There's still so much we have to learn about life and the universe. I think we will have an answer someday, but our current explanations are insufficient, particularly the ones that emphasize supernatural authority figures with a set of divine rules and condemnation of nonbelievers.

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Very nice. We coined a similar term for a friend who knows how to read, but never does so: he is aliterate

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If I've gotta be an "...ist", I think that describes me best. Freedom from religion, PLEASE. SOON.

(Of course, we now have four more years of "God is my direct father, thank you very much" chimp to look forward to...)

(I have a lovely link in mind for that last image, but their site / server / DNS seems to be hosed. Oh well.)

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(I have a lovely link in mind for that last image, but their site / server / DNS seems to be hosed. Oh well.)

Ah, here it is: http://www.asofterworld.com/soft_nov3_2004.htm

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Interesting that you're entirely uninterested.

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Uninterested how?

Not to speak for Paul or any other apatheists, but I consider the question of whether any gods exist to be similar in import to the question of whether any life in the M101 galaxy exists.

That is to say, it's a fascinating question in the field of extraterrestrial biology, but it has no philosophical significance. The philosophically relevant question is not whether a particular being exists, but whether we should worship it.

"Prove there's a God and I'll believe there's an interesting life-form out there that I didn't know about before. But change my principles because of that? Why?" -- Paul Filseth

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I certainly find the existence of god to be less than fascinating. I'd rather talk about alien life, because of the possibility of culture and common ground. What common ground could we have with a god?

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Foldem says He likes beer. So there's that.

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I found his uninterest interesting because I find the topic of religion to be so interesting.

If find it interesting:

- That Catholics and Muslims, just to pick two, scoff at what they believe to be the nonsensical beliefs of the other religion, yet are firmly convinced that theirs is true.

- That religion, which is ostensibly about peace and love, drives and has driven most of the bloodshed in world history.

- To watch how religions, especially Christianity and Islam, shape global politics.

- To ask people what they think was going on the day before the big bang.

- That people can see a divine hand in daily goings-on, whereas I see coincidence and superstition.

- How men shape history to fit their religious views.

- To watch people who believe they'll spend eternity in the best or worst of all places, depending on their conduct in this non-eternal life*, rationalize their behavior.

- To wonder about how early religions came to be, and come to the conclusion that they were inevitable.

- How religious beliefs evolve to fit society.

- To watch the not uncommon waning atheism of people who know the Reaper is in the driveway.

I just find the whole concept interesting across a spectrum of disciplines. Paul is cleary an intelligent and thoughtful person, so I find his uninterest, well, interesting.

Maybe I'm just applying too broad a meaning to Apathyism or apathytheism (or whatever the term was).

Who is Paul Filseth?

* unless reincarnation is your bag.

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People will change their principles in order to serve God better.

Here is the Christian example:

Christian's believe that there is one God, God Almighty (revealed as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) who is the creator and sustainer of the Universe. He is 100% perfect and holy and sent his son, Jesus Christ to be the sacrifice for the sins of ALL men and women. For everyone who repents and believes with their heart that this is true, all sins are forgiven (past, present and future) and they are granted eternal life in heaven when they die (God can't allow sin into heaven).

As a result of the incredible grace given by God, Christians want to live for Him.

Make sense now?

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I kiss you.

I honestly think that the existence of a god qua god (i swear i'm giggling as i type this) is wholly without merit, at least at this point of our existence. However, the existence of gods as indirectly proven through the actions of their believers has an immediate, practical importance. But in the end, that's just dealing with fuckheads, which is a very human concern and has nothing to do with God.

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Human beings are inherently flawed.

I am a libertarian, but despite my politics I feel confident that “intrinsically” many of things human beings debate and kill each other over are 100% right or wrong, 100% good or evil, 100% moral or immoral, etc… It is our inherently flawed ability to recognize and categorize these things that makes me long for a more tolerant and free world.

However, I do not dismiss the notion that with the passage of time humanity will come to universally recognize many more of the things that are right, good, moral, ethical etc… than it does now. If it does, the world will be a better place. It will function better and achieve much better results.

In another response I referred to becoming more spiritual in my mid 40s than I used to be. I also referred to some people being exceptionally gifted that way (which I am not).

There simply ARE some people that are way more sensitive to what is intrinsically right or wrong, good or evil, moral or immoral than others. The same way some people are blessed with greater math skills, language skills, music skills etc… than others, some are more blessed spiritually than others.

Humanity can move in either direction spiritually, but it is obviously better to move in the right direction. We cannot move in the right direction until we at least admit that one direction “could potentially” be better than another. You can’t even do that these days without coming under fire as a religious zealot.

You can be a libertarian, admit that some behaviors might be better than others, try to promote the better ones, and be tolerant all at the same time.

There is something intangible and spiritual inside us that goes beyond the math and physics problems of scientists, but you’ll never feel it unless you were blessed that way to start or you at least attempt to develop yourself.

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I almost agree with you, except i don't think it's "intangible" or "spiritual". It's just people learning to live with themselves and with each other. My opinion is that calling it a spiritual thing is just a label that puts it outside of our psychological reach, because the spiritual realm is not real, right? It's "out there". I don't think it's outside the realm of science; the trick is that we don't know what we're looking for or how to measure it.

And i don't believe in 100% anything. Circumstances and context determine everything. And recognizing right, good, moral, etc., is a big fat zero without the will to do something about it.

We cannot move in the right direction until we at least admit that one direction “could potentially” be better than another. You can’t even do that these days without coming under fire as a religious zealot.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

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""We cannot move in the right direction until we at least admit that one direction “could potentially” be better than another. You can’t even do that these days without coming under fire as a religious zealot.""

"I have no idea what you're talking about".

IMO, we live in a society that on some issues is so greared towards tolerance and subjectivity, it becomes difficult to demonstrate statistically and then promote behaviors that produce better results. If is actually unfortunate that many of behaviors that produce better results are closely associated with the behaviors promoted by major religions. So even if a person is not religious at all and is simply trying to promote positive behavior that is based on statistics and life experience, he will be lumped with religious zealots in a negative fashion. George Bush may be in the white house because of relgion, but there is a great deal of hostility in the US against religion (specifically Christianity). IMO, this works in a counterproductive fashion.

I understand your point of view on intangible and spiritual. I'm not saying that I have advanced or anything. Please don't take it the wrong way. I have just changed my point of view on this in my 40s. I "feel" things now that I did not feel years ago. Years ago I just "thought" them.

Anyway, I've had enough if this. I'd rather discuss playing 2nd pair and overcards against several opponents in limit holdem. :-)

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Thanks for responding on that issue.

Personally, that attitude doesn't cut it for me even though it's probably mentally very healthy. I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school. So thoughts about God have always been prominent even if the energy would have been were better directed towards the stock market and poker. :-)

The more I thought about it the more I became agnostic. Then I slowly became athiest. Now I'm heading back in the other direction. I'm an analytical/numbers type of personality (not very spiritual/feeling), but I have developed in some way in my mid 40s. I have a better sense of the spiritual component and potential of human beings because of that growth. I think some people are incredibly gifted that way even though I am not. But with the little I do have, I am beginning to sense that there's something spiritual and intrinsically "good" that is part of our existence. I don't know whether I should call it God, but it's certainly beyond the science, complex math problems, and literal bible that keep scientists, evolutionists, and religious people fighting among themselves.

I think "intelligent design without the literal bible is a distinct possibility, but certainly not as likely as likely as me playing poker tonight. :-)

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Surely you can't be apathetic about the poker gods?

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But are you an evangelical apatheist?

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Enough of this flamewar! Hey Paul, if you thought that language of hellmuth site was amusing check out http://www.firenormanchad.com/
LOL its almost as funny as watching Hellmuth lose the Tournament of Champions, well not really.

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i bet you've gotten the 'too smart for your own good' comment many a time -- not that that's a bad thing.

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Ok so it was late at night, i was tired and i was searched for norman chad on google. It seemed funny to me at 4 am but everything does that late at night. U happy Fibreglass? I'm guilty. LOL i just try to bring sunshine to this world.

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If do not choose to worship in a certain way, shape, or form are you an apatheist?

Or does that label only apply to those who do not believe Phil Hellmuth is God?

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I read this and thought of you :)

http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=137422&cid=11489609

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Organized religion is just another way for people to try to make themselves feel important. Which sounds sexier: "I am created in the image of a divine being", or "I am just another mostly hairless biped living a brief existence on an irrelevant planet in the third spiral arm of an unimaginably large galaxy"?

Accepting one's own unimportance in the grand scheme of things is the first step toward wisdom. Most religious people are terrified of taking that step, and thus remain utterly foolish for their entire lives.

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If you want wisdom, read the book of Proverbs.

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An atheist was walking through the woods.

"What majestic trees!" "What powerful rivers!" "What beautiful animals!" He said to himself. As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly charge towards him.

He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him. He looked over his shoulder again. The bear was even closer. He tripped and fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him.

At that instant the atheist cried out, "Oh my God!!!"

Time Stopped.

The bear froze.

The forest was silent.

As a bright light shone upon the man, an enormous voice came out of the sky, "You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist and even credit creation to cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?" The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask You to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?" "Very Well," said the voice.

The light went out.

The sounds of the forest resumed.

And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head and spoke: "Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen."

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