Elliot Wilen ([info]ewilen) wrote,
@ 2005-11-15 16:50:00
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Entry tags:immersion

Immersion, Communication, and Perception
Some discussions going on about Immersion these days. See previous entry for links.

I'd just like to raise one point which I think people need to be careful about. "Immersion" is often connected in theory and practice with lack of "out of character" communication. Both here and in Mo's LJ there's been some discussion about the need to maintain interpersonal communication channels to ensure game focus. (I agree.)

What needs to be differentiated are at least three practices, all of which might be called "immersionist":

1) Discouraging or refusing to engage in out of character communication at all times, including between sessions.

2) Similar to (1), but being receptive to out of character communication between game sessions.

3) Thinking and responding to the game "in character" during a game session, but being receptive to out of character communication at any time.

This last is basically saying, "I know my character so well that in any situation, the way I have my character act is the only way that s/he can act, as far as I'm concerned. But if necessary I can also explain what my character's thinking, at least as well as I could explain my own thoughts. And I can also talk about what I'm thinking, and what I want out of the game, as distinct from what my character wants."

Now that I think about it, we can add three similar distinctions having to do with perception:

A) Preferring to perceive the game experience at all times through the eyes of the character. (Thus, you never want to hear about, or even suspect, that the GM is manipulating things behind the curtain, and you don't want to have to deal with "metagame" concerns such as party unity or telling a good story.)

B) Accepting metagame awareness of the game, when not actually playing the game. (You know the GM is presenting a scenario that was written up last night. You're willing to position your character before play in such a way as to achieve certain metagame goals.)

C) Accepting metagame awareness of the game during the game. (As a player, you accept that the GM is fudging dice to keep you alive, but you can separate that from the character's awareness. Yet you can still "slip into" the character's mindset and "know" what s/he's thinking and what s/he'll do in a given circumstance.)

I think it's possible to be "immersionist" to different degrees at the communication level vs. perception level, by the way. For example, unless I explicitly agree otherwise, I'm not very keen on Illusionism and in-game Dramatism, but I wouldn't object to explaining my character during a game. So my lower Immersion tolerance might be categorized as 3B.

Note that "absolutely no Immersionism" wouldn't be 3C. As long as you have the baseline level of "being able to see things entirely from your character's P.O.V., so that your decisions are exactly what you 'know' your character would decide", you're immersing. Maybe this baseline characteristic is what should be dubbed "channeling".



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(Anonymous)
2005-11-16 02:00 am UTC (link)
I wouldn't say "being able to see things entirely from a character PoV" and "knowing that your decisions are exactly what your character would decide" are tightly coupled at all. Lots of people do one or the other without doing both.

I'd also say that it's precisely this levels thing which is the big concern for me when I say that immersion is problematic. Even the 'lighter' levels presume a fairly high level of sideband and play-outside-play in order to maintain (non-Force-dependent) coherence. That's a LOT of weight to put on stuff that's traditionally outside the domain of "rules."

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[info]losrpg
2005-11-16 06:03 am UTC (link)
I totally agree with your first point.

As to your second point, I largely agree there. However, the only real alternative to sideband communications outside of play is to have your sideband communications episodically during play. Either way, you've got to do them. You can either have them during play or outside play.

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-16 09:57 pm UTC (link)
I think Mark is saying that it's possible to play with so little Immersion that there's no need for multiple communication channels. I can certainly see doing this in Pawn stance Gamism. Where it takes the form of Author/Director stance all the way, I think it gets characterized as "storytelling games" by unsympathetic observers who don't think of it as roleplaying.

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[info]losrpg
2005-11-22 08:25 pm UTC (link)
I think Mark is saying that it's possible to play with so little Immersion that there's no need for multiple communication channels

You may be right here. Whether or not that's actually Mark's position, my take is that the need for multiple communications channels there is both cases, but that in low-immersion play, multiple channels are open during play. In either style of play, you need to spend some time talking about IC stuff and some time talking about metagame stuff. The difference is that in high-immersion play, you bunch all of your metagame communications at the beginning and end of play. In low-immersion play, you often sprinkle the metagame stuff throughout the game session.

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-16 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Your first point: John gets more to the heart of what Immersion is when he write "I cannot consciously choose what my character is thinking". So just forget about the problematic language I used, or take it as chracteristics of channeling rather than definitional.

Second: So for an immersionist, OOC perceiving/thinking/doing/communicating is sideband. Yup, that might be a problem for some people. (A note on the double meaning of "probematic": It's sometimes a little hard to tell whether you mean that "immersion causes problems", or that "the definition of immersion is debatable". I think you've raised each point at different times.)

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[info]losrpg
2005-11-16 04:57 am UTC (link)
Oddly enough, none of these hits at what I'd consider the essence of immersion...though some of them hint at it. Certainly the third-person analytical view of what the character would do (using 'in-character' rationale from a 3rd-person, analytical POV) is absolutely not immersion. Immersion, IMO , is all about POV and the mental processes which maintain it.

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-16 10:04 pm UTC (link)
Yup, I think John's description of what Immersion is is better. The stuff I wrote is more about some of the stuff that gets produced by Immersion.

Although, I have to say--I'm probably not a very deep Immersionist myself. So I may be partially blurring Immersion with something that's functionally equivalent from the standpoint of playing the game with other players. Namely: having such a clear conception of character that it feels like a violation to have him do anything other than what you "know" he'll do. It amounts to a functional rejection of Author stance (if the Author/Actor distinction makes any sense).

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-17 12:20 am UTC (link)
Oh, and on the chance that there still might be some difference...

Maybe one person can't consciously choose what his character is thinking, but he perceives his character from a 3rd-person POV. Another person does exactly as you say, maintaining a 1st-person POV. I'm tempted to call the former "channeling" and the latter "immersion". (Strictly provisional.)

What's important is that, yes, the 3rd-person "channeler" and the 1st-person "immersive" may have different needs and present different challenges to the gaming group. Perhaps the "channeler" has no trouble watching the GM manipulate the world like crazy, but it's crucial to his fun that he, the player, never has to feel like he's "making" the character do anything. The "immersive" by contrast finds overt GM manipulation so distracting that it snaps him out of the 1st-person experience that he craves.

(The following is not directed at Lee but at a certain line of argument that I can see waiting in the wings in response to the above. Warning: I get a little ranty at this point.)

Let me see, the next objection will be that if you feel like you're "making" your character do something, then your game is screwed and not worth talking about. But that begs the question. If "channeling" is a baseline requirement for functional roleplaying, then why do some people find that certain techniques impede channeling? Don't say it's their fault: they've found techniques that work fine for them. This is a real preference, not some kind of impossible craziness.

Also, maybe some people don't like "channeling". That's right: I'll bet there are people out there who want "storytelling games" where the characters do what the players want them to do, and elements of character are either rationalized post-hoc or seen as emergent properties that develop out of play.

In other words, to talk intelligibly about nurturing aesthetic preferences such as channeling or immersion, we have to grant that these words are emblematic of something that the other person really perceives. "All games allow you to channel" is as useful as "Any movie can be enjoyed." It's just another version of "System doesn't matter."

If the argument is instead that "channeling" or "immersion" are so different from person to person that we can't really develop general approaches to nurture it, well, that's the point of this discussion. Let's compare immersion from a functional perspective, so that we'll be able to see if there are generalizable characteristics that can be addressed in RPG design. Or maybe there are several identifiable subtypes that can be attended differently.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2005-11-16 06:06 am UTC (link)
This last is basically saying, "I know my character so well that in any situation, the way I have my character act is the only way that s/he can act, as far as I'm concerned. But if necessary I can also explain what my character's thinking, at least as well as I could explain my own thoughts. And I can also talk about what I'm thinking, and what I want out of the game, as distinct from what my character wants."

There is a key difference for me from what you say here, though you may have meant it. If I am channeling my character, it is not simply that I can explain what my character is thinking -- but that I cannot consciously choose what my character is thinking. That is, if something happens, then I may know that she is angry. I can't rationalize and come up with some reason for her not to be. If someone has a critical objection, I can diplomatically say the words "No, she's not angry", but this will feel absolutely false to me and will remain so.

That is what makes it channeling or "character immersion" as I tend to call it.

I also find your categories A-C tricky because my experience doesn't follow any of them. If I am in a tabletop game, obviously I am still aware of the meta-game. I respond by narrated description rather than physically doing things. I'm capable of talking about something like party unity, though aesthetically I'd probably prefer not to have a discussion about it in the middle of the game. However, there is no way for me to tailor my in-character actions to achieve party unity without damaging my vision of the character. My character will do what he does.

I would say that how much out-of-character chatter you want during your game is a matter of aesthetic preference in principle independent of what channeling is. For example, a spotlight-loving dramatic player might prefer in-character dialogue out of aesthetics, but have no sort of channeling and always choose dialogue for dramatic effect. As another example, competitive tactical players may strongly prefer to have their plans be secret and also not hear other people's secret plans. Now, it could easily be that channeling players on average have a greater preference for more purely in-character play. But it's always difficult to assess such "averages".

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[info]heron61
2005-11-16 06:25 am UTC (link)
There is a key difference for me from what you say here, though you may have meant it. If I am channeling my character, it is not simply that I can explain what my character is thinking -- but that I cannot consciously choose what my character is thinking. That is, if something happens, then I may know that she is angry. I can't rationalize and come up with some reason for her not to be. If someone has a critical objection, I can diplomatically say the words "No, she's not angry", but this will feel absolutely false to me and will remain so.

That is a truly excellent point and comes very close to the heart of what I feel immersion is about.

I also find your categories A-C tricky because my experience doesn't follow any of them. If I am in a tabletop game, obviously I am still aware of the meta-game. I respond by narrated description rather than physically doing things. I'm capable of talking about something like party unity, though aesthetically I'd probably prefer not to have a discussion about it in the middle of the game.

I agree with the above statement, except that in my experience while I am obviously aware of the meta-game events occurring around me, when asked to talk OoC in a game session, I have to work to respond as myself and not as my character, just as my natural tendency is to see the situation as my character does. In this state of mind, I overlook all meta-gaming information that is not of immediate import and process the important metagaming input (such as the results of die rolls) through the filter of my character's perceptions.

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[info]heron61
2005-11-16 06:18 am UTC (link)
I think these are a very reasonable pair of scales in which to analyze immersion. Under them, I fall firmly around 2.33-2.5/B (when I attempt to respond out of character in a game, my perceptions, linguistic usage, and thoughts are all strongly colored by the character's unless the conversation happens during the dinner break or at some similar break in play that is longer than a couple of minutes). I also very much like that this isn't a scale of immersion to non-immersion, but a way of discussing different styles of immersion. We definitely need more of this sort of analysis, rather than accepting immersion as a uniform and undifferentiated phenomenon.

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-16 10:09 pm UTC (link)
I also very much like that this isn't a scale of immersion to non-immersion, but a way of discussing different styles of immersion.

Thanks, yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. (About which, see more below.)

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-16 07:21 am UTC (link)
A lot of good comments here but I just want to get in a couple thoughts before hitting the sack.

First, John, what you're describing with respect to channeling is exactly what I'm trying to say. Namely: you don't feel you can control your character's thoughts and feelings.

Second, I'm not sure I meant to use these scales as defining immersion. But at this point let me revise/clarify and say that they're talking about symptoms of immersion and/or "breakpoints" where certain phenomena, or being called upon to do certain things, make it much harder to immerse.

Third, yet another scale. The first was about communicating, the second perceiving. The third scale is about doing. When do you as a player perform actions that can't be interpreted in-game as character actions? Same breakdown: never, between sessions, in-session but you maintain the IC and OOC distinction. Basically I'm talking about Author and Director-stance actions here. The classic example...GM: "What do you do?" Player: "I see a man."

This last is a little fuzzy since any tabletop RPG requires OOC player action in order to produce in-character action. (For a more in-depth view, see Montola & Loponen, "A Semiotic View on Diegesis Construction". Except for speaking in-character, which is mainly an indexical sign, most of what we do at the tabletop involves symbolic communication.) It's also by no means straightforward to say why or how a given mechanic "puts you outside your character" while another seems "transparent". The very question is probably worthy of a whole separate discussion.

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[info]jhkimrpg
2005-11-16 06:42 pm UTC (link)
OK, I think our positions are fairly close, then.

I would say that the scales (i.e. communicating, perceiving, doing) are potential techniques to promote immersion. Depending on the person and the circumstances, different techniques may help immersion. For example, some people may be pushed away from character immersion by your #1 (i.e. communicating only in and as the character). For them, having a larger view helps their vision of the character and her environment. I recall in particular discussion with Kevin Hardwick on rgfa. He said that his immersion was often aided by the GM telling him emotional reactions -- i.e. "That makes you really angry". For me (and several others on rgfa), this has always been an immersion-killer. But different people work different ways .

I think the example of doing is also one that varies. Take your example of GM: "What do you do?" Player: "I see a man." This is Director-stance by Forge terminology, but it is also strictly from the point-of-view of the character. In my experience, a great many people find it an aid to immersion to be able to take such Director-stance action rather than always having to wait for the GM to define all external facts.

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[info]marcochacon
2005-11-16 12:16 pm UTC (link)
John got to the point I was going to make first--but I personally *like* the scales. Adding in a stance-level and notations about what limits one is comfortable going to rationalizing their character's actions (to keep the game alive, for party unity, for social comfort-zone, etc.) might help here.

A point I wanted to bring up is that although I have no philosophical objection to talking to a GM about my character's intended fittness between sessions (or even during session if it was really important to the GM or some other player) I have a practical one: I don't want to send the wrong messages. I fear that telling the GM distinct, direct things about my character's conflicts could lead to an unwanted focus on them (I'm sure this sounds paradoxical or even manipulative). Usually, in the begining of a game, I have some *directions* I want to take the character in--but no concrete context about which to envision an actual conflict. I find it (usually) trivially easy to bring my character's conflicts into the game ... and often in ways that pleasantly surprise me but I don't usually know what to *ask* for prior to the game getting underway.

I feel like having a conversation about this when I have no specific situation I wish to come to pass could actually *damage* that dynamic (but I will note that certain game set-ups have produced *exactly* that: a specific conflict that'll come up such as the dark secret that will be a focal point of play. That I'm good with).

This is, IMO, good work.

-Marco

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-16 09:27 pm UTC (link)
Still more good comments and I haven't even taken the time to really look closely at some of the early ones.

John, I appreciate what you say about the scales. Taking that into account, I have to admit that while I intended them as measures of successively "deeper" immersion symptoms/requirements, you've shown that they can in practice be just "different" immersion symptoms/requirements.

Marco, yes. You could be happy to tell the GM what you want to have happen. You could be okay with knowing that the GM is fudging dice or using a Moving Clue. But you don't want your communications to be reflected back at you--otherwise, why have a GM? I'm getting a little tired of making scales, though, and the one implied here is especially weird since it builds on Communicating and Perceiving. I'm satisfied to just use regular words to talk about it.

Not specifically to anybody: I don't think it'd be very helpful if we started using these scales and saying, "I'm a 3BGamma, how about you?" Even though I did that in my entry, the real purpose here was to show that there are many different ways that Immersion can cause problems and many different things that can cause problems for Immersion. I'm sure there are also many different ways of nurturing Immersion and (deep breath) many different benefits that can come from Immersion.

So when we address the question of "does Immersion have a hard time playing with [Narrativism/Gamism/Simulationism/Funism], and how can we can them to play nicely with each other?", I'd like to make sure that we describe exactly what types of conflicts we're talking about. I'm pretty happy to look at this as mere prep work for reading Mo's upcoming blog entries.

Finally, as much as a note to myself as to refer anyone, here are some other discussions of Immersion:
Vincent's first (?) hack at it on his blog. He says some things that are very much in line with what we have here. Also a few things that aren't very nice. Whatever. Remember that Vincent is focused on thematic player-empowered gaming, so whatever he has to say, positive or negative, is probably influenced by that framework.

Deep Immersion thread from the Forge, referenced from the comments in Vincent's blog entry. Probably a few things that are less nice. Ditto.

The un-nice things be debatable, but I'm sure they're based on real experiences that people have had, cases where Immersion interacted poorly with their games. Instead of proving them wrong, I think the most fruitful approach is to find ways to overcome the problems, or failing that to identify breakpoints where differing preferences are going to make it impossible for different people to enjoy playing together.

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[info]losrpg
2005-11-17 05:54 pm UTC (link)
No time to respond in depth, but I think that your 1-3, A-C are best viewed as techniques for or possible properties of, immersion.

Also, I agree with your recent replies -- especially about how a clearly defined character concept which is highly prized can be mistaken for immersion in online discussions.

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[info]ewilen
2005-11-18 01:44 am UTC (link)
I'd like to emphasize the functional perspective. Or rather, I wish people would emphasize the functional perspective--the demands that the player puts on the game and the play-group. The scales are examples of how to generalize about those demands. We might also have scales or categories dealing with mechanics (as implied by current discussion over on John Kim's LJ).

Then we can work on dealing with these demands. If we're lucky, we'll find that people tend to cluster in a few patterns, so that entire systems (from expectations of play to GMing styles to mechanics) can be tailored to work with more than one or two people at a time.

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[info]losrpg
2005-11-22 08:53 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you that this functional perspective (which I tend to think of as simply IC mode without necessarily IC POV) is more important than Immersion, and that Immersion is not as important to RPG theory as it is often made out to be.

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