Evan Martin ([info]evan) wrote,
@ 2005-01-06 11:31:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
my thoughts on selling out
It's funny to me that so many people were surprised that Brad sold LJ. And to be clear: Brad sold LJ, it wasn't just "acquired" by somebody. We've talked about selling LJ for years, and I'm happy that it finally happened. (Note: I wasn't involved in any of these discussions. I'm flattered you thought to ask me about the rumors, but you ought to keep in mind that I work one of LJ's main competitors -- I regularly chat with the Blogger folks at work -- and I'm as in the dark about LJ plans as the rest of you.)

I think everyone projects their love of LJ into a love of Brad; since you don't know him you fill in the missing parts with your wishes. I do the same, but I also get to see more of him than you do.

The truth is he hated a lot of LJ because he had to do everything. When I think back to school all I can remember is him being grumpy about it -- the late nights he'd have to skip studying to fix the site, the legal problems with users -- and was only happy when he'd have an idea for a cool new feature to hack. I remember talking in his car on a trip from Seattle to Portland and him excitedly spelling out an idea for a (completely unrelated) project he had, and then dejectedly saying, "but I have to work on LiveJournal."

Brad's a hacker, not a social network theorizer nor a businessman. He's done a passable job at the latter two but I attribute LJ's success to a lot of happy accidents. (I wish I could play back for y'all the long discussions I've had with danah over the past two days. She studies this sort of thing.) LJ's growth forced him to give up the aspects he enjoyed.

So take selling as a given. When we had discussed selling in the past, it seemed there were two main ways to go about it:
  1. Jump ship. Sell to e.g. Microsoft for as much cash as possible and run. (For example, I'd imagine that Yahoo is looking to get into blogging...)
  2. Try to fix things. Get somebody else to do the parts you dislike while continuing to work on the parts you like.
It appears to me he chose the latter; the reports indicate he took stock and that Six Apart doesn't have that much cash. I can't think of a better company to have merged with that better represents the second option (and in fact, I had brought them up before as a company to talk to).

I sincerely believe:
  • That the LJ staff is happy with this. (That is, they're not just getting paid to make happy statements.)
  • That the Six Apart people are not stupid. Anybody who thinks they're going to immediately fuck up the community or try to force people to switch software or anything like that is being hysterical and irrational.
  • That the pairing is a good one. As [info]snej observes, Six Apart is notorious for making well-designed / user-friendly interfaces, which is one of LJ's weakest points, while LJ has some seriously awesome technology. (This is the reason I had brought up Six Apart before. Also, I like what little I know of the owners.)


However, I and I think everyone else are still a little frightened about it all. Hysteria aside, there are some real problems that I don't think will be solvable:

Capital-F Free software. LJ is a service and can afford to give away the code, while MT can't and so they have some reportedly fucked-up licensing scheme that everyone hates them for. I don't know how I feel about this; I like to think I am a Believer in free software (of anyone affiliated with LJ, I'm pretty sure I've contributed the most to non-LJ free software projects) and all of that but I also appreciate people's desire to eat.

The relationship between volunteers and employees of the site may become even weirder. I still don't think anyone understands why people volunteer for LJ in the first place aside from their love of LJ. LJ was a business before, and now it's, uh, a different business, I don't think anyone understands how the volunteer opinion may change with this.

Changes to the guiding principles which are primarily lawyerese CYA but all show the fundamental shift happening. It's entirely possible that marketing managers will decide to slather LJ with ads, or sell email addresses, or whatever. But in truth that doesn't make any sense, even from a marketing position (again, be careful with the hysteria), because the users will hate you for it.

There is, however, the possibility of more gradual changes -- even simply cultural ones that cannot be controlled by technology -- that ultimately have the same effect. I don't think Brad would have agreed to all of this if he didn't believe they would do it. But ultimately for that, as he wrote, the only thing we can do is wait and see.


(Post a new comment)


[info]teemus
2005-01-06 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Well said.

(Reply to this)


[info]akismarain
2005-01-06 08:38 pm UTC (link)
Touchee.

(Reply to this)


[info]whitaker
2005-01-06 08:47 pm UTC (link)
"That is, they're just getting paid to make happy statements."

Do you mean "...they're not just getting paid..." ?

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]evan
2005-01-06 09:21 pm UTC (link)
Whoops! Yeah.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]jeramey
2005-01-06 09:01 pm UTC (link)
So many people seem to really detest selling out in any form and, somehow, expect certain people to suffer for their creations or art or whatever. In reality, selling out — like most things — can be either bad or good, and it depends on the reason behind it, what you choose to sell, and who you choose to sell out to.

I'm happy for Brad if this lets him focus on the stuff he enjoys and allows LiveJournal to become a better service and better software. The people at Six Apart have always seemed to have their heads on pretty straight.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

it's ridiculous to crucify those who "sell out"
[info]manhattanmuse
2005-01-07 08:47 am UTC (link)
I don't know why anyone in america would work on something to not sell it or make money off of it.

You can't exactly exist here cashless...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]bacek
2005-01-06 09:03 pm UTC (link)
Hmm... Good words. Seems like an epitaph. So, R.I.P. "old good LJ"?

(Reply to this)


[info]interimlover
2005-01-06 09:10 pm UTC (link)
thanks for the insights... I was waiting for you to chime in :)

(Reply to this)


[info]jiggery_pokery
2005-01-06 09:22 pm UTC (link)
Very nice post. I choose to think Brad is a nice guy, and I still do so. I hope that the other shareholders of Danga, Inc (I may be inaccurate with the precise ownership terminology here) did well out of it as well as Brad, and also the other people who made the site what it is today - the other staff, but aso (in an ideal world) the volunteers too. (Cue standard argument about whether the volunteers are well-rewarded for their time, whether volunteering should be for reward, etc.)

In the 2003-4 State of the Goat, I asked "What if Brad, or you, or anyone else on the LJ team, got bored and decided she/he didn't want to work on the site any more?" and the reply began "If Brad ever got absolutely bored with the site, he'd try to find someone trustworthy and knowledgable enough to take it over." This is what seems to have happened, so full marks there, and one not-very-hard-earned prescience point to me.

One part where I'm ticked is when in the 2004-5 State of the Goat it is asked Are the main LJ staff still happy to work on the site? and [info]whitaker replies "We are very happy to work on the site, being long-time users ourselves."

I'm not saying that [info]whitaker was lying, but if you're correct ([info]evan you) then [info]whitaker certainly wasn't telling the full truth. Perhaps I'm expecting too much to expect someone on the staff to say something that probably amounts to commercial suicide ("Yeah, Brad hates it and there are ongoing discussions about selling the site, have been for years...") but, you know, I'm still vaguely disappointed somehow.

I still choose to believe that the LJ staff are non-specifically Good Gals And Guys, but I'm still disappointed.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]evan
2005-01-06 09:38 pm UTC (link)
I think bradfitz is the sole owner.

I think whitaker is happy with what he does. I think bradfitz is less happy with what he's charged with, and tends to avoid it to work on the things he does to the detriment of the rest of the site.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mart
2005-01-06 09:40 pm UTC (link)

I think it's pretty common knowledge that Brad hates running the site and just wants to sit around and write cool stuff all day.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]jiggery_pokery
2005-01-06 09:50 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps, but it would have been nice for it to be somehow "officially" on the record, at least to the extent of a reply to a comment in news, as well as apparently "pretty common knowledge".

If Brad is a good guy, then he is a good guy for writing lots of cool stuff and releasing it to the world. If he's a good guy for what he's done with LJ, then he's a good guy for what he's done with perlbal and mogilefs and all the rest. (Obviously, everyone else who has worked on them is a good gal|guy as well, at least to some extent.) If this new move lets Brad spend more time doing the things that make him a good guy, then so much the better.

Yeah, I'm trying to convince myself of that, too - while it may be technically correct, it somehow doesn't feel right and these persistent vague feelings of disappointment linger. Now admittedly these are entirely brought on by myself and Brad owes me nothing, and I suspect that one of the seven techniques for being highly effective would be to stop allowing myself to feel such feelings, but, you know, it still is just Not Right somehow.

Are the Nullsoft guys still cool after they sold out to AOL?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]pezstar
2005-01-06 10:51 pm UTC (link)
I think that selling out to AOL automatically makes you uncool.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]littlewashu
2005-01-06 11:16 pm UTC (link)
You're "disappointed" because the owner of a company whose services you use -- not even the company you WORK for -- didn't make an "official" statement about how he feels?

I think you are correct in saying that "Brad owes [you] nothing" and incorrect in saying that the situation is "just Not Right somehow." I guess you can't easily change how you feel about something but I also think you're a little crazy. ;) Personally, I don't feel as though we were deceived at all, but hey, that's just me. :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]jiggery_pokery
2005-01-06 11:42 pm UTC (link)
For most companies, it's an unreasonable request, I would agree. However, I think many people have a stronger relationship with LJ (with their LJ, with the LJ community and with the company at large) than with most companies.

I also think you're a little crazy. ;)

You're probably right and I'm probably taking this a little too seriously. Thanks for the reality check.

However, I don't think this invalidates my feelings (as tempered as they are) and I don't think that I'm alone.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]evan
2005-01-06 11:40 pm UTC (link)
Nullsoft: I think so, yeah. I don't know them, of course, but friends-of-friends...

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]jpallan
2005-01-06 10:53 pm UTC (link)
I know it, but I don't think many people who HAVEN'T worked on LJ (myself as a volunteer, and hey, I have [info]crschmidt hanging about the house to boot ;)) knew that.

It's really obvious a lot of the time because if you read his public journal, if you look at what he likes to do, you know. But then again, it's common knowledge through all LiveJournal volunteers that Brad likes shiny pretty happy hacker toys and hates dealing with money and legal crap and everything else. And ain't nothing wrong with that, but it can make actual business stuff difficult at best. LJ spread by word-of-mouth, which is great in many ways, but could, quite possibly, do a lot more now that it has a team of people who enjoy doing this professionally behind it, and leaving Brad to play with shiny pretty happy hacker toys in the Bay instead of dealing with 8 million business problems.

I'm no hacker -- your basic Linux user for convenience instead of techiness -- and even I know how important perlbal and memcache are for computing. And now Brad can do that with his time. I think of this as a win-win situation.

Unless Six Apart is secretly evil, but as far as I can tell, they're strapped for cash, and LJ could quite possibly save them on that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]whitaker
2005-01-06 11:25 pm UTC (link)
I understood your question to be about the LiveJournal staff in a not-[info]brad, but the people working for him sense. I guess in my head I don't include the owner as part of the "staff."

I should have clarified that I can only really speak for myself, but I still feel like my description was accurate for the majority of the staff. Apparently I misunderstood your question though, so I'm sorry to mislead... it definitely wasn't intentional. :-/

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]jiggery_pokery
2005-01-07 12:10 am UTC (link)
I consider that to be somewhere between excessively literal and disingenuous, but I could be out of line in doing so.

On the other hand, as I said at the time, "I want to see the things that it's not in your interest to tell us. :-)" Accordingly, I guess I shouldn't really be surprised that you responded in order to protect your business interests, and I probably ought to be glad that you chose to do so.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]whitaker
2005-01-07 12:33 am UTC (link)
Hrm. Maybe I'm confused because I've never read the post you just linked (that was on 2003!).

The one I remember responding to was a fairly straightforward question in December about how employees like working for LJ... and I responded by describing my own feelings, extending them to apply to my coworkers, the majority of whom I think would agree with me. I certainly had no sinister plan misrepresent Danga, or Brad, in my response.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]ladylynx
2005-01-07 11:32 pm UTC (link)
I can imagine the amount of LJ users that would've taken an officially unhappy Brad as "See! Brad hates us! He doesn't care about us at all!"

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]fraserspeirs
2005-01-06 09:28 pm UTC (link)
The relationship between volunteers and employees of the site get even weirder.

Ah, this is what I was trying to say over in [info]xjournal. As a client developer, "weird" is exactly how I feel about making Six Apart's product significantly more attractive to Mac users as a spare-time effort......

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]evan
2005-01-06 09:36 pm UTC (link)
It's interesting that you, of all people, say that: I really like OS X and envy the APIs but I feel weird about making free software that makes Apple products more attractive.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]fraserspeirs
2005-01-06 10:02 pm UTC (link)
Whilst I would be flattered to think that some people see Xjournal as so good that they switch to Mac OS X, I tend to think that Xj users have already made their platform choice and subsequently choose a blogging system that fits well with their platform. Now I'm all curious to do a poll about this...

Ultimately, I write Xjournal for myself so my interest in it will persist as long as my interest in LiveJournal does. I'm not saying I'm abandoning Xjournal or anything. Just that your use of "weird" perfectly sums up how I feel about this relationship at the moment.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]londonium
2005-01-07 08:04 am UTC (link)
It may not have been the cause, but my conversion to "the Mac" in December 2002 would not have occurred without the existence of xJournal.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]revjim
2005-01-06 10:18 pm UTC (link)
Well said!

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]currahee
2005-01-06 10:19 pm UTC (link)
I think that because Brad has worked so hard on LJ over the years he'd be unlikely to sell out to someone unless he genuinely thought they would do a good job. I have no worries about the sale at all, and I think Brad deserves every penny he gets from it.

(Reply to this)


[info]bride
2005-01-06 10:52 pm UTC (link)
This is nearly exactly what I've been saying to almost everyone I've been talking to.

(Reply to this)

probably projection, too.
[info]joshc
2005-01-06 10:55 pm UTC (link)
He's done a passable job at the latter two but I attribute LJ's success to a lot of happy accidents. (I wish I could play back for y'all the long discussions I've had with danah over the past two days. She studies this sort of thing.)

I wish that, too. I would love to have heard your discussions with danah about this. The two of you should do something like Slate's _____ Club features!

I remember hearing Brad's talk to the communication class at UW and getting the sense that while he felt like it was neat that there were users, it was clear that the technology was why he was in it. I guess your description of people's projection of their LJ love onto Brad might be why some were shocked to find out that their community was a benevolent dictatorship. My surprise at the sale was more out of naivete about how the software of the two companies fit together, rather than the idea that Brad wanted out of the business end of things.

(Reply to this)


[info]czircon
2005-01-06 11:21 pm UTC (link)
I believe that Brad believes everything he's saying about how all the changes will be for the better, but the changes to the social contract guiding principles are really scary. Brad says they'll defer to him on community issues, but that sounds like a formality and I doubt he'll really be able to stop them from doing anything they've made up their minds to do. I can understand his not wanting to do business stuff constantly, but I'd be a lot more comfortable if he'd retained some kind of real veto power, which doesn't appear to be the case as far as I can tell.

I'm also concerned that if(/when) Six Apart dies, LJ will go with it, whereas LJ seemed to be supporting itself pretty well before this.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]pezstar
2005-01-06 11:56 pm UTC (link)
On the contrary, from what I gather, he's going to be the head of the LiveJournal division of 6A, and that grants him a large amount of veto power. As has been said several times, but still merits saying again, why would 6A want to mess with the parts of LiveJournal that make it LiveJournal? It isn't broken. They don't want to fix it.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]czircon
2005-01-07 12:07 am UTC (link)
They don't seem to have any qualms about messing with the free software or privacy parts.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)


[info]pezstar
2005-01-07 12:11 am UTC (link)
Hmm. What specifically are you referencing?

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]mendel
2005-01-07 01:00 pm UTC (link)
I think those changes are mostly lawyerly stuff. Basically, it used to say "Only LiveJournal will use the personal information you give us", and now it says "LiveJournal or its parent company". Ditto for the free software side; there's always been the livejournal and ljcom tree, and the former is OSS and the latter is proprietary.

It seems a bit disingenuous to think that Six Apart is trying to put one over on us by changing the Guiding Principles, since it would be far easier to put one over on us by not changing them, and then just going ahead and doing the things you suspect.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]xtreyu
2005-01-06 11:38 pm UTC (link)
I don't think Brad sold out, and considering his position and what's he has probably gone through, he needs a change for himself too. Since Brad is going with LiveJournal, there's a better chance that nothing bad will happen. I'm anxious to see what good will come out of this.

(Reply to this)


[info]yourmindshifts
2005-01-07 12:22 am UTC (link)
I only wnat to comment on the volunteers and this being a business. It's a psychological thing. Even though it was a business before, it was PRESENTED as a community. This gave security. It's only human to want to improve your communiity, have a sense on comraderie, even be recognized in that community for your contributions, and yes even get approval from the community leaders.

A sell makes sucks you out of that little reality you've created. Things will probably go on as usual. Community will probably degrade a bit (unless LJ compensates somehow).

Overall, though, if Brad thinks it's a good decision, I'll trust your his judgement. From what I've seen and from friends who know him IRL, he seems to have his values and priorities together.

Oh, and the love for LJ-->love for Brad thing. It's not just displacement, but he's also a model for people for different reasons (some as a developer, some as a good person, etc)

sorry that post was kinda all over the place

(Reply to this)


[info]way2tired
2005-01-07 02:22 am UTC (link)
You know, its the changes to guiding principals that worries me the most, but that would have happened with or without the sale. Evenutally, if Brad is being honest with us in his own LJ (and I have to assume he is), he would have found someone to take over running the business if not for this sale. He was unhappy. Unhappy people eventually change the conditions that make them unhappy.

That new person, with even the best of intentions, might have taken LJ in a whole new direction.

Noone likes the unknown, but its always there. The status-quo is nice, but it's never as safe as it feels.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]brad
2005-01-07 08:45 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the good comment.

To add more:

I'd seriously considered just shutting down the entire site a few times because it was sucking all my time and happiness, and those times were increasing in frequency.

The status-quo was definitely not safe.

When people started asking to buy, I listened. Most people sucked, and I didn't want to work with them, though. Not so with Six Apart. They may still kill the site, but I knew all those other companies would within weeks, and I knew I would've shut down the site on my own if I didn't get help.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

change is good.
[info]way2tired
2005-01-07 12:19 pm UTC (link)
I've been in the "this job is really starting to suck and I want to do something else" mode. I'm honestly surprised that it took you this long.

The more details I hear from your journal and people like [info]whitaker and [info]evan, I think you made the best choice for the (possible) long-term life of LJ without you being in control. If only more president/ceo people took as much thought about what they did with their companies.

I'd never heard of Six Apart before, but I had heard of MovableType (from [info]revjim). Not being much of a perl guy contributed to that, I think.

Good luck dude, I think most of us wish you well with the job change.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]scsi
2005-01-08 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Oh, so you got those feelings too? :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]heidy
2005-01-07 07:32 am UTC (link)
Uhmm....well, I am not sure how this place works, or who is in charge and all; all I know is that I love the site, and it has given me the chance to get to know a few cool and awesome people around here....and for that much and MORE, I am grateful..... I SURELY wish, whoever has been behind this magical place, the best of the best in life. ^_^ I hope the dude finds peace about selling the place and all.
Okies...there I left my two cents...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Hooray for Brad!
(Anonymous)
2005-01-08 10:41 pm UTC (link)
My boyfriend lives on LJ... I need to read his blog to find out stuff. I'm older, so I blog on blogger (half of his college is on lj, mine is like... L- what?)

But I've been blogging for a while and I keep up on the companies involved in offering blogging sites. I think anyone who is pissed off at Brad for his choice is missing the point--it was HIS decision and he made the best decision he could make for everyone involved, and if that meant him, too, well--it should!

As a lawyer's daughter, I TOTALLY understand the need to chanage "social contract" to "guiding principles." Those who point to it as an opportunity to f***K with lj users don't understand the legal definition of contract and that there are special rights conferred to people in a contract. There is no way any company is going to agree to say that they are in a "contract" with a customer--it opens them up to tons of liability.

Nothing ever stays the same, fact of life. Ideally, this will make lj better and if the only other option was turning off the lights, then I don't see how anyone can complain except to create drama.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Hooray for Brad!
[info]tigerhawk71
2005-01-16 12:46 pm UTC (link)
haha.. yeah. *relates to*.. my girlfriend is a LJ user and if i couldn't read her journal to find out whats going on that she didn't tell me already i'd probably go crazy. XD

this is the first i'd heard of all this (i.e now. shows how much i keep up) and i know bugger all about it all. but i haven't noticed the earths orbit shifting, and it isn't getting warmer. so i'm not worried... and besides. the guy wants to sell something he's worked on so damned hard, what kind of people would we be if we told him no? especially people like me on free accounts. *slinks away*

(Reply to this)(Parent)


Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…