Erynn999 by Ben

October 2008

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Erynn999 by Ben

Ramblings on Personal Gnosis

This will probably be rather disconnected, as I'm not entirely awake, but have been pondering this for a few days now.



My friends in CR and I have come up with the concept of UPG or "Unsubstantiated Personal Gnosis" to describe what we get when we do our meditations, dreamwork, visionary seeking and other work in non-ordinary reality. What we mean is that we have our inspirations, but there's nothing out there yet to substantiate whether it has relevance within the CR movement, or even as anything more in a personal sense than an image that may or may not be useful privately.

Using UPG in personal practice can be a wonderful thing and can in fact lead to some pretty spectacular places. It can be an encouraging and strengthening thing. It can be developed into some powerful personal ritual and techniques. It can also lead to some really fascinating delusions if not checked against reality. This, I think, is where so much of Reconstructionist religion comes up against a hard wall when it comes to mysticism, and rightly so. When people don't check their inspiration against history and reality, there's a great danger of wandering off into the mists never to be seen again. Sometimes, folks lead others along the garden path with them.

Part of what I see as a strength in the Reconstructionist community of mystics and seekers is the tendancy to reality check. Talking to each other and knowing the lore and history are both immensely important. It reduces the chances of people taking a personal revelation as being gospel for the community, and helps us pull our heads out of our nether regions if we're totally off track. Yep, sometimes a really cool dream is just a really cool dream.

But at times we find that we're getting the same kinds of images or impressions, getting the same general information from the spirits, the deities, the ancestors, or whoever/whatever it is that leads and calls us. When we compare notes, we find that we're sharing insights that we've come to in some odd, collective way. UPG becomes SPG, or Shared Personal Gnosis. Community and group ritual sometimes begin to develop around these images and impressions, and if we're lucky, research sometimes confirms this information and it becomes a part of community knowledge.

Even when a thing isn't (or can't) necessarily be confirmed by research, it can be useful for a community to discuss and ponder. Religion doesn't stay in one place. Stagnant spirituality, like stagnant water, dies. Like culture, spiritual paths are constantly moving and changing. If Pagan Celtic religions had survived Christianity intact, they would still not be as they were a thousand or two thousand years ago. They would change, as Hinduism has changed, to accomodate the times. I believe that part of what mystics and seekers and dreamers in the Reconstructionist movement get through some of their UPG are ways in which these paths can and perhaps should change to accomodate modern society.

When I consider my computers, I go to Ogma, because while no ancient Irishwoman or Scot ever saw a computer, it certainly seems right to equate a god of speech and eloquence with this most modern tool of communication. It allows us to share our speech and our eloquence across unimaginable distances. Strictly speaking, it's not Traditional, but I think it's likely such a thing would have happened with an uninterrupted Pagan continuum in Celtic society.

Some of the things that are becoming SPG within the CR movement involve the three cauldrons, or stones in regard to personal work, or lesser-known deities. It's fascinating to watch as new information develops and is shared among people who have seen the same or similar things separately. I think it's a beautiful thing, and is an indication that the path is living and growing, that it won't necessarily dead-end on dry scholarship without insight or practice.

Other things that are working through SPG include materials regarding Sweat in an Irish and Scottish context. The discussion on MPH has paused, but has a great deal to offer for those who are interested in seeing how SPG develops, and in participating in the process. There seems to be a great deal of commonality in patterns of offering within CR as well, in the ways people approach that act. We seem to have similar ways of approaching spirits. Not all of it seems derived from text sources.

I know this is somewhat disjointed, and I don't really have a point here, per se. I'm just thinking aloud to see what others will say about it. I'm interested in your take on UPG and SPG. Where do we go with it from here? How do we best make use of it? What are our best checks and balances?

Comments

I just wanted to pop on to say thank you to you and to the rest of the CR people that are doing on-going work in this area. It is so helpful and encouraging to see so much of this kind of discussion going on in public/shared space. I know I feel so much like newbie at times, especially when it comes to the more mystical aspects, that I often don't feel like I can participate actively in these kinds of discussions. They are very helpful to witness though, to see how you honestly and sensitively deal with each other's UPG. Makes me feel very good about the future.
You know, newbie insights can be very valuable. Please don't feel you can't participate in the dialogue.
Well, for starts and to nitpick, we're not the only people who use the terms UPG and SPG. The Norsefolk I know use it as well (one example is how Freya is "known" to like chocolate - there is no way that's lore-based, but it's come up in disparate locations with no cross-communication between the groups). I think it's a recon-wide concept amongst the more mystically inclined of us.

That said, I think it's a matter of continuing to keep track of what's UPG, what's SPG, and what winds up being supported in the lore with further investigation. A personal example of the last: I'd been getting pushed toward a five-element pattern of dealing with certain aspeccts of my work with the gods before a footnote in a Guyonvarc'h book tipped me off that I wasn't using something completely extra-Celtic. My application is somewhat UPG but the concept is not.

I think we also need to maintain a healthy respect for variations in UPG. The lore is also sufficiently diverse that it'd be problematic if we did anything less.
I think we also need to maintain a healthy respect for variations in UPG. The lore is also sufficiently diverse that it'd be problematic if we did anything less.

Yes- and we need to remember that the diversity in UPG is probably a mirror of what was actually happening in Celtic society- that even within the Six Nations there were different tribes/clans etc. and that there wouldn't be anymore an "Irish" or "Scots" way of doing things- much less a Gaelic one or a pan-Celtic way; although they'd probably fall along similar lines within a culture or language group.
I was told by one of my Asatru friends that it was the Asatru that originally started using UPG as a term. She cited some originating source, but I don't remember it. I can ask, though. Regardless, I've seen both communities -- I agree that it might be one of those spontaneously cropping up in multiple places things.
Whether it was spontaneous or originated in Asatru, the concept is an excedingly valuable one in reconstructionist religious discourse, and if it's the Asatruar's term originally, I'm pleased that they came up with it and glad they're on the same tracks we are in so many ways.
I agree. I've had some really valuable conversations with [info]deoridhe, a local friend and vitki. It's extra amusing since we both had a near-miss at exploring the other's religion, and still have somewhat of an academic interest. But the idea of UPG is apparently pretty commonly accepted in their groups; we were just having a conversation the other night about how far the concept had spread and how cool that was.
Ah okay. Shows you how insular I get sometimes.

Hmm. Talk to me about this five-element pattern? I'm curious about what you're seeing. Which Guyonvarc'h book are you referring? His "Making of a Druid" or one of his French ones?
It was Making of a Druid, yes. Guyonvarc'h noted that there were five basic elements in Druidic tradition: fire, air, earth, water and fog. Fog being equivalent to akasha/spirit. These do seem to be pretty close to the core ones whenever such are brought up in the lore. I know there are lists of seven or nine in other stories, such as the Gaelicized creation of Adam.

I'd gotten poked about the five elements originally by the mother of the Umbanda house I work with. The five gods I work with most closely also have strong affinities to each of the five (Brigid/fire, Manannan/water, Morrigan/air, Lugh/earth, Dagda/fog) while also blurring into one or more of the others on occasion. They also have cardinal points/center assignments in my head as well as alignments with my spirit animals, but that's really veering into UPG with emphasis on the P.

UPG, SPG, CPG

Well, you may feel you're rambling, but this looks good to me. The computer glitched and ate my long, earlier response to this, so I'm having to, er, reconstruct it now.

As we're reconstructing the spiritual practices and culture of the Celts, and we know how essential mystical experience was to them, I've gotten to the point where I only consider something CR if it values both scholarship and mysticism.

So far, I think we're doing pretty well with our work to turn UPG into SPG or CPG, and if it can't make that transition, either keep it private or continually name it for what it is (UPG, not The Way The Ancestors Did It).

Though ungrounded fantasies are a huge problem in the general NeoPagan communities, I think the Reconstructionist communities, if anything, are leaning to the conservative side on this. I believe some branches are stagnating and not really CR anymore, but just research (and sniping, and deconstruction).

If I'd make any changes to the above, I'd perhaps indicate that the main problem of UPG-only is found in the broader NeoPagan community, and less so among the Reconstructionists. However, that may just be my not seeing enough of the broader community, as I'm sure there are groups and individuals out there we don't know about, who are being way delusional but calling themselves CR. Or if there aren't yet, there will be before too long. So we're certainly not immune to it. I like to think that we'll always have better checks and balances than the general run of Pagans, but we also have passed the point where we can control the use of the name CR. And though the pendulum may have right now swung too far to the dry side of things, it's equally possible that it could swing the other way at some point. So it's something we'll probably always have to be on guard for, in ourselves as well as the community as a whole.

Either way, I'm glad we're continuing to discuss it in depth.

The thing that worries me is when people want to label Wiccan or Western Ceremonial Magick practices as an acceptable evolution of Celtic (or IE) spirituality. The foundation cosmologies are too different for me to accept that. Nor do I think "Wicca can be Celtic" is acceptable as SPG. I don't think it is SPG, I think it's the influence of a past involvement in Wiccan traditions, or the current predominance of those thoughtforms and attitudes in the broader NeoPagan community. So that's an area where we may have people trying to claim it's valid as SPG, but the lore is so obviously in disagreement that I'd say it's a shared fantasy.

The areas where SPG seems most valid is in areas where we really have very little information, and the visionary input we're getting is not only shared, but still in line with what we know of analogous Celtic deities or traditions. Those are the bits that it's been easy to be confident about. It's the stuff that's really obscure that may take us longer to decide whether it should be shared or not.

Re: UPG, SPG, CPG

I'm certain we're beyond the point where we can "control" anything about who's using CR. I see people more and more often describing themselves as filidh that I'm not sure actually understand the word. It tweaks me, but O'Dubhain was the first one who ran off and swiped it. You know how he grates on me. He tends to go with UPG as fact more often than most of the others I've seen who claim CR as a path.

*headdesk*

I was rather distressed at the thread on Imbas where people were trying to shoehorn the usual Wiccan/CM elemental pattern into the four cities/four treasures material yet again, but we've talked about this. I agree, I think it's all force of habit and comfort zones talking. The dividing line between SPG and fantasy is definitely one that needs more study and discussion. I find myself thinking about it a lot, really.

somewhat OT: RED MIST!!!!!

Oh Gawdess, O'Doofus (Valiant defender of Douggie Monroe, Witta, et al). Geez, is he calling himself CR these days?! And a Fili?! Ick. Just Ick. I will never cease to be appalled at the venom he and his violent wife spewed at you, Gordon, Paul and myself back in the day for bringing CR ideas into the public eye, and then how he turned around, joined Nemeton, and became such an ass-kisser when he realized we were right. (Though as far as I know, he never apologized to any of us.)

I hope we don't wind up with people thinking that Fili just means "a more delusional (and arrogant) sort of psuedo-druid". gak. (Much like all the NeoPagan alcoholics who call themselves Priests of Dionysus.) *sigh* More work to do...

"force of habit and comfort zones" - exactly. Switching from a Wiccan to CR practice takes time, and deep neural re-patterning. I tend to agree that a year of intense focus on a new cosmology seems to be the minimum it takes to get it rooted in there. But it's worth it.

After I wrote, "However, that may just be my not seeing enough of the broader community, as I'm sure there are groups and individuals out there we don't know about, who are being way delusional but calling themselves CR." I wandered over to Witchvox, who now have a CR Websites section. Oh shit. Some of the sites... there are people listing themselves as CR who are Wiccan, and/or have whole pages of material copied verbatim from DJ Conway and Edain McCoy. So, I really spoke too soon. And we've all gotten letters from Wiccans or Genero-Pagans who want to call themselves CR, just because it sounds more legit. It's so fucking typical (and American) - wanting the title without the work.

I'm not feeling very good about the human race today. The combined level of ignorance and arrogance, and then how the stand I find myself taking (just to make sure the truth and history are respected) makes me feel (obnoxious and arrogant myself). I can do the warrior thing. I can flamethrow and be proud. But the truth is I'm happier meditating in the woods. Just my luck that I get drafted by a warrior culture, and in a time when the general culture is so lacking in, well, culture, or tradition, that they'll grab onto anything shiny whether or not they have the slightest idea what it really means.

I'm going to shut up now. I've veered way off topic and started ranting in your journal. Off to growl and gnaw bones in my cave...

Re: somewhat OT: RED MIST!!!!!

It really is frightening what people will pick up on just because it's on the web. Pepofloretism flourishes as much now as it did back in the day, but fortunately we have information out there to counter it now, where it originally was very hard to promulgate.

Call me? YIM me? I wanna talk about stuff. Not just this.
You raise some important points that are, I think, critical in understanding spiritual communities. I confess I've nver come across the terms "personal gnosis", etc, though the context you present them in makes sense.

I am not sure that this has been studied by any anthropologist. It needs to be, though.

I'll go off and think about this for a bit.
Well, there aren't many living paths out there that talk and think about this publicly. This sort of thing, from what I can see, would tend to usualy be private information or worked with in monastic environments by specially trained individuals and hence not really accessible by anthropologists.

Modern reconstruction Paganism movements seem to be unique in some ways, and this, I think, is one of them.

(Anonymous)

CR and Wiccans

I am new to the site and as most a seeker in the old ways. Over the years I have seen a meld of beliefs, wiccans,celts,and others, I have searched inside and in the world around me and as yet can find no one who takes into practice or just belief , an accurate view of any culture. The Celts like other religions and cultures have blended beyond literal recognition. I have been around some Wiccans lately that share ecletic views. I have not had the experience to be around true celts (if that is an accurate statement). I have always felt drawn to the Celtic views but it is hard to discerne past the basics that published literature provides. I still have a hard time listening and understanding the voices of nature around me, I have to return to published or oral beliefs of others....in some peoples eyes , I would be appaling because I am not a purist....I think everyone who attempts the steps towards the divine is a purist what ever they may call themselves. It is the call of nature and the divine and how each individual translates that call for themselves. Right now I am trying to learn about the tripartite cosmology concept...I have been delving over the last few years about the 4 elements...always knowing about a 5th, but the concept of just 3 with the 4 fire/spirit is now confusing. This concept is to go along with a manifestation of the inner self called Integration...or how the elements are fused together....any insights?

Re: CR and Wiccans

I don't think anyone here is strictly a "purist" though we do strive to follow the old ways of different Celtic cultures as best we can.

One thing about the tripartite cosmology of land/sea/sky is that you can't really equate it with "elements" per se, and therefore they don't/can't "fuse together" in the sense I think you're speaking of. Fire is something different entirely as well, and rises out of water or the sacred well. It takes a year or so of working with a new cosmology and worldview to genuinely start integrating it into one's life and thinking in terms of it rather than one's old paradigm.

Try this as an exercise for understanding the three realms model. I wrote this a very long time ago and use it as a sort of centering practice that I refer to as The Center Point. It involves both movement and a breathing pattern used to time the movement. Breathing is, ideally, timed to the heartbeat. Three each beat is one count. Breathing pattern is to inhale for 3, hold for 1, exhale for 3, hold for 1.

Movement is slow, rhythmic and deliberate. Each movement has its own meaning.

Start standing erect, arms relaxed at your sides.

Close your eyes and relax. Clear your mind, concentrating on your breathing, and listening to your heart beat. Breathe in and out in the 3-1-3-1 pattern three times as you allow yourself to relax.

As you breathe in the fourth time, raise your hands from your sides and cover your heart with your palms, one over the other - you are at the center of the world.

Exhale, moving smoothly to one knee, placing your palms on the ground in front of you - you stand firmly upon the Land.

Inhale as you rise to your feet. As you stand, move your hands behind you as far back as you can comfortably reach at waist or hip height. Your hands should be cupped as though you are holding liquid.

Breathe out, moving your hands in an arc around you until they meet in front of you at about the level of your navel - the Sea always surrounds you.

Breathing in, move your hands back to your sides, holding them slightly away from your hips with your palms flat, facing forward and your fingers spread open.

Exhale as you raise your arms above you in a smooth curve over your head until the tips of your thumbs and index fingers touch in a triangle -the Sky spreads itself above you.

Inhale again, lowering your hands in front of you until they are once again cupped over your heart - you are at the center of the Three Realms.
When I consider my computers, I go to Ogma, because while no ancient Irishwoman or Scot ever saw a computer, it certainly seems right to equate a god of speech and eloquence with this most modern tool of communication. It allows us to share our speech and our eloquence across unimaginable distances. Strictly speaking, it's not Traditional, but I think it's likely such a thing would have happened with an uninterrupted Pagan continuum in Celtic society.

Now that's interesting. [grin] I generally go to Brighid, with the reasoning that smithcraft was the high technology of the day, and so considering Her as a goddess of today's high technology is a logical extension of the concept. Particularly with Her poetry and inspired creativity as well as smithcraft, I think of her as the matron deity of geeks and hackers, too.

I wonder if our different approaches to this reflect the different ways we think of computers. You, the poet, naturally tend to approach them as tools of communication and speech, while I, the tech girl, approach them as high technology. [grin] Either way, I could see a valid argument being made for both deities, just as we have multiple deities of smithcraft, multiple warrior deities, etc.

I think you're pretty right on with regards to UPG and SPG... keeping in touch with both the lore and the larger community are good ways to check whether your big profound experience was personally valid for just you, or whether it connects to something larger.
Both of these make sense, but since there is so much overlap in Celtic myth between deities and their areas of expertise, it seems likely that more than one deity might look over computers. They really are a vastly important part of modern Western life. They deserve more than one tutelary deity ;)
I completely agree about changing to fit the times. This is where I break with GT unfortunately. The biggest change I believe would have been a movement similar to the bhakti movement in Hinduism. Think about it- in the time Christians arrived, the Celtic Pagan socio-religious structure was mostly Brahmanic in function. The Druid class was so similar to the Brahmanic class- they performed very similar functions in society. What we practice now is basically the Celtic version of bhakti Hinduism. We do not require a Druid or any other religious functionary to recognize or mediate our relationships with the Divine.

I absolutely cannot wait to experiment with a sweat ritual. I'm so tempted to try and do a small private sweat ritual at the upcoming pagan festival since I know the organizers and they'd be game for it. Hmmmm.
What kinds of ideas do you have surrounding the sweat? I'd love to see this discussed more/again within the community.

sweaty

I guess I might as well type up more of my notes. Some of them are on my computer that's in the shop, but others are in my head or paper-notebook. Shall we re-activate the MPH thread?

Re: sweaty

Probably a very good idea.