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Grad School/Academia: Road to Poverty? Too Many Engineers. (Part 1) 
26th-Jan-2005 08:15 pm
Sing at Tom's
For all of you applying/going to graduate school, please read some of these negative career articles on PhDs.org. What do you think? Debates about these issues have gone on for decades.

- Do We Need More Scientists? (The Public Interest).
- Is There a Science Crisis? Maybe Not: Leaders warn of a labor shortage in the U.S., but indicators point to an oversupply (The Chronicle of Higher Education):
So Many Grad Students

Economists and others who track the job market raise a heretical question: Is the United States educating too many scientists and engineers? The surprising answer coming from some quarters is an emphatic yes.

An article published this spring in Today's Engineer stated, "Many practicing engineers disagree with the recommendation to increase the number of U.S. citizens pursuing science and engineering studies and careers."

With wages stagnant and too few jobs for engineers, adding to the work force will only make those careers less attractive, says one of the authors, George F. McClure, a retired aerospace engineer who studies employment issues for the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. "The problem is that everybody has focused on the supply side, and very few have focused on the demand side," he says. "People in colleges and universities are concerned with maintaining the pipeline and throughput."

In a case study, Ms. Stephan, the Georgia State economist, has analyzed the growth of the bioinformatics field, generally regarded as one of the hottest areas in science. The number of degree programs blossomed from 21 in 1999 to 74 in 2003.

"There's been a tremendous increase in the number of students in these programs," she says. But, she adds, "we also track job announcements in bioinformatics, and they've been declining."

She sees parallels to other leading fields. "Everybody is talking right now that there'll be lots and lots of jobs in nanotechnology," she says. "I've not seen a convincing case that that is happening, or that it will happen."


[I considered entering both bioinformatics and nanotechnology before concluding they had too few job opportunities.]

Yet graduate schools have an incentive to train ever-increasing numbers of students and postdoctoral fellows because they perform the work on research grants that bring money into universities, Ms. Stephan says. "Academe has a big vested interest here."

Even the National Academy of Sciences, one of the cornerstones of the establishment, has acknowledged the conflicts of interest involved in this issue. "These forecasts of undersupply that did not materialize have led policy makers for graduate training and research support to be highly skeptical of any forecasts and to worry about the self-interest of the forecasters," concluded the academy in a 2000 report.

Harvard's Mr. Freeman argues that academe and the government need to revamp the system. Students and postdocs, especially from foreign countries, make up a corps of "cheap labor," he says. "It runs the system, and it runs it very efficiently, in terms of the taxpayer." He advocates increasing wages for graduate students and postdocs in order to make careers in science and engineering more attractive to domestic students.

Mr. Washington, chair of the National Science Board, agrees that universities could be doing a disservice to graduate students. "There's some kind of personal responsibility that professors and departments should have," he says. "They do have a responsibility to ask the question: Are they generating too many students? Or are they are generating students who haven't got the skills to apply for the jobs that are out there?"

He and others are urging universities to change the way they educate doctoral students. Jobs in academe are scarce, says Mr. Washington, and as graduate students in science grow ever more specialized, the trend does not prepare them well for the job market.

"If someone has a good combination of skills and did a Ph.D. or master's," he says, "they can probably have a much easier time finding a job in industry or government, whereas someone who is a real narrow specialist can't get a job unless they get a job in an academic department. Even then they're not the ideal teacher, because they'll just be creating clones of themselves."
- Wanted: Really Smart Suckers: Grad school provides exciting new road to poverty (Village Voice):
Here's an exciting career opportunity you won't see in the classified ads. For the first six to 10 years, it pays less than $20,000 and demands superhuman levels of commitment in a Dickensian environment. Forget about marriage, a mortgage, or even Thanksgiving dinners, as the focus of your entire life narrows to the production, to exacting specifications, of a 300-page document less than a dozen people will read. Then it's time for advancement: Apply to 50 far-flung, undesirable locations, with a 30 to 40 percent chance of being offered any position at all. You may end up living 100 miles from your spouse and commuting to three different work locations a week. You may end up $50,000 in debt, with no health insurance, feeding your kids with food stamps. If you are the luckiest out of every five entrants, you may win the profession's ultimate prize: A comfortable middle-class job, for the rest of your life, with summers off.

Welcome to the world of the humanities Ph.D. student, 2004, where promises mean little and revolt is in the air.
As a former engineer, I think the whole "shortage of engineers" idea is a freakin' myth, partly cooked up by companies to get cheaper labor. The problem, when you actually go apply for an engineering job, may be:

1) Lots of PhDs or MS graduates out there are willing to do what you want to do, with several more years experience.
2) The jobs are arcanely specialized, so little you learn in school may really prepare you for the 3-5 years industry experience everyone seems to want. As an engineer, I barely used ANYTHING I learned in engineering school. (Exception: circuit designers and some other electrical engineering jobs that are similar to certain advanced engineering classes.)
3) Lots of engineers in India, China, Russia, etc. willing to work for 1/2 or 1/3 the cost of an American engineer, on stuff that is the same regardless of location.
4) Projects and products are unstable, dependent on the business climate. If the economy sucks in your specialty or little product niche, layoffs are guaranteed no matter how brilliant students are or your business idea is.

[Case in point---this former hot company here in Silicon Valley, with star employee Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux: Transmeta -- how a great idea, brilliant minds and big investors equaled a big flop (San Jose Mercury News).]

5) Working as an engineer may be a lot LESS CREATIVE than being an engineering student. It can be extremely repetitive or narrow. Every engineering student takes a design class, but few are actually hired to do design. Think they'd trust new grads to create the backbone of the company's product? [This is for BS level engineers.]
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Comments 
26th-Jan-2005 11:03 pm (UTC)
In Silicon Valley, a lot of people who majored Information System are bagging groceries. The world of computers seemed saturated since then and companies will say, "Computer Designers are a COST to us!!" So there are lots of layoffs. Didn't know this is almost the same case with Engineers. Yeah, why not -- if I can hire someone who would be willing to work and cost 1/2 to 1/3 compare to American Engineers, why not? The thinking goes, it saves us money!!

You know, I heard nowadays Pharmacist do NEED a ph.D in order to work in a pharmacy. They are increasing the level of education here. Whereas, 10 years ago, all you need is a B.S. degree being a pharmacist. Crazy world. Somehow, I feel like we are in downward mobility.

When I was a Graphic Designer, for one job available there are 300 applicants!!! Real crazy!! 10-20 years ago, a graphic designer would need a degree to work in a field. Now, because of the computer revolution, even a secretary can now claimed herself as a graphic designer. *shakes head* Totally crazy!! Why not hire someone who can cost you double or triple the money, if they can train their secretary doing the same thing you do? The vast of computer use...puts a lot of grahpic designers OUT of job. Many are laid offs.
27th-Jan-2005 05:26 am (UTC)
My friend, who sells cosmetics at Shiseido, says some of her coworkers are ex-engineers. Some with even MS degrees.

Hmm...I think there may be still a big demand for pharmacists with BS degrees. My pharmacology teacher, who's been a pharmacist for several years, had a BS in pharmacy.
26th-Jan-2005 11:40 pm (UTC)
Here's the advice I give all of my undergrads when they ask me about grad school:

"Unless you have a specific reason for going there - you want a job that requires an advanced degree - you should not be in grad school."

Lots of MS/PhD jobs are more fulfilling than you describe, though, if you're so inclined. Engineers with advanced degrees tend to work more creatively than BS engineers, who're stuck in the labs doing repetitive tasks.
26th-Jan-2005 11:56 pm (UTC) - Thank you
Yes, you said what I missed saying. If you have a very specific area and see a specific path there that takes a MS or PhD, that's a different tale.

And yes, the advanced research people with PhDs may get to do is super interesting. I'm just wondering out in industry if it stays at that creative level or not. I mean for the average PhD.
27th-Jan-2005 12:00 am (UTC) - Re: Thank you
Most of the PhDs I know in industry (chemical and bioengineering, mostly) are quite content in their work, and feel challenged by it. I can't think of any whose work I would classify as uncreative.
27th-Jan-2005 05:21 am (UTC) - Re: Thank you
Point taken. Would you please glance at some of the articles on PhD.org? What do you think, Terry?
26th-Jul-2005 10:32 am (UTC) - Re: Thank you
Anonymous
U ass chinese better take care of urself. There is no need to misguide the people out there u ass hole. An MS /Phd is still worth a lot if ur from a good school. Mind you, u son of a bitch ur country is running on technology just bcos of that Phds
26th-Jul-2005 01:18 pm (UTC) - Re: Thank you
Actually, I graduated from Berkeley's engineering school, PLUS I can spell. Unlike you. :)
27th-Jan-2005 05:30 am (UTC) - Re: Thank you
Actually, when I was a process engineer for Applied Materials (semiconductor processing), they hired BS, MS, and PhD engineers to do almost the SAME THING. I couldn't believe it. Yeah they had different salary ranges, but at the end of the day, a BS guy with some experience and a new PhD guy did pretty much the same things. It must have been even more boring for the PhDs than it was for me, I kept thinking. :p
27th-Jan-2005 11:10 am (UTC) - Re: Thank you
That's just dumb, and the company is suffering for it. Usually the BS guys are leaning towards the bench work and the PhDs are guiding a team of BS and MS employees.
27th-Jan-2005 05:50 am (UTC) - Also...
From the Chronicle of Higher Education article above:

So Many Grad Students

Economists and others who track the job market raise a heretical question: Is the United States educating too many scientists and engineers? The surprising answer coming from some quarters is an emphatic yes.

An article published this spring in Today's Engineer stated, "Many practicing engineers disagree with the recommendation to increase the number of U.S. citizens pursuing science and engineering studies and careers."

With wages stagnant and too few jobs for engineers, adding to the work force will only make those careers less attractive, says one of the authors, George F. McClure, a retired aerospace engineer who studies employment issues for the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. "The problem is that everybody has focused on the supply side, and very few have focused on the demand side," he says. "People in colleges and universities are concerned with maintaining the pipeline and throughput."

In a case study, Ms. Stephan, the Georgia State economist, has analyzed the growth of the bioinformatics field, generally regarded as one of the hottest areas in science. The number of degree programs blossomed from 21 in 1999 to 74 in 2003.

"There's been a tremendous increase in the number of students in these programs," she says. But, she adds, "we also track job announcements in bioinformatics, and they've been declining."

She sees parallels to other leading fields. "Everybody is talking right now that there'll be lots and lots of jobs in nanotechnology," she says. "I've not seen a convincing case that that is happening, or that it will happen."


[I considered both bioinformatics and nanotechnology before concluding they had too few job opportunities.]

Yet graduate schools have an incentive to train ever-increasing numbers of students and postdoctoral fellows because they perform the work on research grants that bring money into universities, Ms. Stephan says. "Academe has a big vested interest here."

Even the National Academy of Sciences, one of the cornerstones of the establishment, has acknowledged the conflicts of interest involved in this issue. "These forecasts of undersupply that did not materialize have led policy makers for graduate training and research support to be highly skeptical of any forecasts and to worry about the self-interest of the forecasters," concluded the academy in a 2000 report.

Harvard's Mr. Freeman argues that academe and the government need to revamp the system. Students and postdocs, especially from foreign countries, make up a corps of "cheap labor," he says. "It runs the system, and it runs it very efficiently, in terms of the taxpayer." He advocates increasing wages for graduate students and postdocs in order to make careers in science and engineering more attractive to domestic students.

Mr. Washington, chair of the National Science Board, agrees that universities could be doing a disservice to graduate students. "There's some kind of personal responsibility that professors and departments should have," he says. "They do have a responsibility to ask the question: Are they generating too many students? Or are they are generating students who haven't got the skills to apply for the jobs that are out there?"

He and others are urging universities to change the way they educate doctoral students. Jobs in academe are scarce, says Mr. Washington, and as graduate students in science grow ever more specialized, the trend does not prepare them well for the job market.

"If someone has a good combination of skills and did a Ph.D. or master's," he says, "they can probably have a much easier time finding a job in industry or government, whereas someone who is a real narrow specialist can't get a job unless they get a job in an academic department. Even then they're not the ideal teacher, because they'll just be creating clones of themselves."
27th-Jan-2005 11:18 am (UTC) - Re: Also...
You've always got to be careful leaping on a bandwagon, because it's hard to tell when it'll run out of room. Bioinformatics was never promoted to me as a growth industry, for example - too many legal questions. Outside of academics, it's all small start-ups.

Nanotechnology, on the other hand, is booming...just not under the name "nanotechnology", because that's a buzzword, not a discipline, and anyone who studies it as a discipline is a sucker. Electronics, catalysis, materials science - most of this stuff could properly be termed nanotechnology. Lots of people are making money on nanotech - in chemical and electrical engineering, and materials science.

Narrow specialization can be a problem, but it's a problem I don't have a great deal of sympathy for. There are PhD projects that translate well into industry, and others that don't. If you want to go into industry, you should be working on a thesis that has ties to industry, is funded by industry...that industry is interested in. If you're working on a thesis of narrow academic interest and hoping to get a job in industry...why are you on that project?
26th-Jul-2005 10:28 am (UTC) - Re: Also...
Anonymous
No No man,,, u are absolutely misleading the aspiring MS/ Phd students. The fact that u are not satisfied with ur job and ur degree u just can't blame like that. it's definite that u didn't have the ability to get ur degree from a reputed school. U know , there are millions of Bitch & Dogs like u out there. But they at least don't criticize the grad schools.
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