It's not unlike Steve Albini's "The Problem With Music" math.
I had already talked with a TP'er last year (I forget who) about the reality of producing a page a day at TP rates. She was hilariously and predictably resistant. She cited that Japanese artists did it. She ignored the point that Japanese artists 1)Have studios to help them make that page (or more) a day happen and 2)Are mostly no kind of rich. She was the inexperienced expert. She had it all figured out and I was a poopyhead out to spoil her fun.
It didn't matter that I have done comic art at the clip of a page a day, and it's not "grueling", it's fucking punishing.
As Toren (
![[info]](http://p-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
mrcaxton)is fond of saying about animators working in Japan, "Most of them live lives of quiet desperation."I not only do not believe every creator who signed a TP contract went in "eyes open", I'm now convinced they went in with their fingers in their ears, their eyes screwed shut, bellowing, "Lalalala! I can't what if this is my big break hear you!"
You can act like an amateur, but don't expect to be treated like a pro.
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- divalea
- Lea Hernandez-DivaLea
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Comments
1) The contracts are very much stilted in the favor of the publisher and more frighteningly may well present a precident for other publisher-creator relations in the future ( O_O ! )
2) There is a great feeling of unrest over this particular swing in the dynamic as we watch it crest on the horizon-but worst of all, this is something almost completely out of the hands of the creator populace as a whole. It doesn't seem like there is any real answer to the problems (current and forthcoming) for the creators other than what publishers will choose to do... and frankly why would those publishers (new and old) follow anything other than what will bolster their own bottom line and of course their own bank accounts. I've heard it argued several times already that fans don't care and that the creators aren't considered important unto themselves--but these are probably the same idiots who said that there was no place for anime, manga, manga styled stories from non-japanese authors and that GNs would never sell any place other than specialty stores... why is this sentiment still considered valid?
As a n00b-y to the pro field of comics (I have one published story in a Tpop anthology (sorry) and my first ongoging (CREATOR OWNED) series on the horizon for early 2006 (by a reputable and respected publisher--just so you know where I'm coming from ^__^) what is the answer? Other than airing this dirty laundry (and I'm very glad it is being thrown out into the harsh unforgiving light) what do we do about it? Is there something creators can do? Do we need a guild? I don't know what the answer is, but right now that seems to be the most important thing--finding the answer that will allow us to avoid another calamity like the big crash in the 90's... please, what is it, someone come up with something brilliant and quick!
We need to be able to turn this travesty into something useful... before it gets too late
There were a surprising number of people out there who didn't know about TP's contracts. They knew contests, a comic "written" by Kurt Cobain's widow, big bags carried all over the place at cons. They knew SHINY but its an opportunity SHINY it's my break it's NEW its dazzling SHINY.
People have been ignoring the obvious questions of how all the TP razzle-dazzle, all the dozens of second-tier books, would be paid for.
And now they know something else.
Over the course of that [1998 till 2003 ish], Naoko wrote essays for other companies, did some illustrations, got married to the guy who does HunterXHunter, had a kid, and then finally worked things out, her previous contract expiring, and a TON of Sailor Moon rights reverting back to her. Surprisingly, she's done a few things with Nakayoshi since then [a shortlived series Love Witch, and a new ongoing series Toki Meka], so I'm assuming she got a better deal with them for those. This lead to her producing the live action Sailor Moon show [she apparently had a lot of control over it, and this explains why she didn't make much manga for the past few years], and messing up the international rights of Sailor Moon in many many countries.
Which, to get back on topic, is basically why TokyoPop lost the Sailor Moon license. The SM novels they publisher were apparently not authorised by Naoko, so she put the kibosh on them, and decided not to renew the license, even though it was TP's top selling property ever.
I've known several authors who have had to change their names and writing MOs just to get published again. Basically, if you don't earn out by your third book, you have to start. All. Over. And if you're still a midlister by your 20th...that can be even worse.
Do comic artists commonly go with agents?
There have been a few agents, I was not impressed with any of them.
“I not only do not believe every creator who signed a TP contract went in "eyes open", I'm now convinced they went in with their fingers in their ears, their eyes screwed shut, bellowing, "Lalalala! I can't what if this is my big break hear you!"
You can act like an amateur, but don't expect to be treated like a pro.”
I think having an open discussion is great and helpful to everyone, but I can not help but feel this comment is insulting and is only meant to try and goat more creators into talking. Totally inappropriate.
It is my opinion, and it's (checks to be sure) my LJ.
Nice artwork on ILH, BTW. Reminds me of Pee-Wee's Playhouse and Scott C.
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. However, since you are concerned enough to address it, please tell me you intend to so the same for all those TPop creators who have made free to call us "haters", "just jealous", and so on.
Really, despite its internet sprawl, this converstaion has been remarkably civil all things considered. But I'll stop myself before I start meandering into tales that beging with, "Back in my day..."
Oh, ya, that one got my goad.
And then to fall back on, "oh, jk" when someone mentioned they understood our side
Oops, I've already start the with, "back in my day..." ^^;;;; Oh well.
It's not just that either. Take a wade through the comments section on this whole subject at Fanboy Rampage. A faceless individual calling himself "Steve" and Ms. de Campi have joined together to belittle both Lea's career and mine. The implication is that if you're not seen as a Soooper Star then your experience and advice has no value, no merit. Belittling my career I can live with, it's small and slow growing by choice and necessity. But bashing Lea's career? I just want to take that idea, put it in a cage and poke it with sticks.
She has been working in this industry and for the acceptance of "OEL" for two fucking decades. She has several books published with a consistent record of reprint and sell value. She's got more work under her belt (both credited and uncredited) than I could possibly dream of. She's an award winner.
And now to be pissed on because she had the audacity to say, "Watch your back, this industry is full of treacherous fuckers."
Nobody at the ENGINE started out calling anyone stupid. No one assumed that youth meant inherent idiocy. Those supposed attitudes were assumptions on the part of an unfortunate few. Up flew the defenses and the accusations. Witch hunt!? Excuse me? After all that, it’s kinda hard not to feel just as we are told we do.
Fight the good fight.
As for the trouble, maybe it's karma. God knows I shouted down a well-intentioned "elder" a time or two myself in my less experienced days.
I'm just not that optimistic.
Yes it is your opinion and your live journal account, but with more and more eyes checking your page for your “opinion” you should know better than to try and instigate people by insulting them. If that’s your way of keeping your name in the press then so be it. More power to you.
I think it stands alone quite well without conversational additions.
You're not doing yourself any favors, and you're not making TP look so good, either.
You want to have a discussion, then discuss. If you can't, if you're going to come to my space and start something, I'll lock your ass out.
Being on the opposite side of this debate doesn't mean I'm obligated to allow you to say anything you want and just sit here and take it.
what's important... I guess the whole crux of this entire discussion (because that's what it is) has to do with what is actaully happening in the community (of creators) and what the longer reaching effects will be. There is a very obvious divide amongst the creators it would seem who work for Tpop and some of the vets who've come out of the woodwork to offer their advice and opinion on the subject.
The short term is an observation on what's going on with creator's rights in relation to probably the largest and farthest reaching publisher of domestic manga influenced GNs. These truly are observations and opinions and at the same time should be well listened to and considered by the younger set coming up (myself included of course), those of us who have not been in the industry for as long or have seen the changes taking place over the lifetime of the industry that these vets have. Robert, Torren, Lea all have been around and in the industry for wuite a long time and have a deepseeded and seemingly benevelonet concern for the matters at hand. this is a good thing, I'm glad they do. it shows a real passion for the artform and for the community as a whole, and we should be glad that they feel this strongly, whether we agree with their opinions or not. It would be a crime, but at the same time understandbale on their part, if they were so sick of us young'ins coming up all piss and vinegar and 'we know everything' already simply because it is inherent to our youth and enthusiasm. History has always been about the previous generation trying to dissuade and caution the next one from making mistakes that the older one has already made, avoided or otherwise had experiences with - learn from the past, and don't repeat the unfortunate-sort of thing. there have also been those vets working in this industry for a very, very long time who've suffered backlash for their concern. taking so much crap from some of us younger folk that they have rightfully adopted a 'sink or swim on your own' approach, and it is sad that that has happened in several cases, but can't we understand why these vets feel this way?
the long term, and the arguably more self-serving stance on the situation, is that Tpop lies ina position of overwhleming influence on the current industry. the practices that they institue will, have and may in the future drastically reshape the acceptance of the artform and the presence of the industry in the mainstream. For many, many, many years a bunch fo us have been trying to get GNs and manga and anime accepted into the mainstream, getting the works out into places where people would have easier access to them--it seems almost impossible now that such a time when you couldn't grab a decent stack of GNs and DVDs from the big-market-book-chains even existed... but at one time, not really long ago, it did. Tpop had a big hand in helping make that dream a reality. I think it was on Robert's LJ that he made the statement that echoed with many of our own sentiments in the community--when Tpop came on the scene it was an idealistic ray of hope. here was a company willing to do what many of us had been raging, and moaning, pleading and parying for and they were actually taking a stand and taking the steps to help make that dream come true... Maybe that's why it feels almost like a very rough and strange act of treachory. If Tpop has evolved into the sort of company that many people involved in the discussions say it has, then it is indeed an end to that idealistic ray of hope.
As for the defense of Tpop... I don't think it matters really. I've seen one editor (whom I know personally) out there, stranded on the front lines of this arguement with no other support than a handful of the Tpop creators defending their own decisions. I don't think that that is the overall point. I don't think Tpop should strand one of their own out there to defend their practices to the seething and growing mass of this restless community who is unhappy with what they're hearing. I think, Tpop should really be involved in these discussions, not just to 'defend' the way they do things, but maybe to better explain their own philosphy, and better yet to hopefully change things for the better not just for them as a publisher but also for the community, if nothing else but for their own PR amongst the creators who care about this.
In the end, after all of this hemming and hawing, through the good points and bad points tht will be brought up, the rational arguements and the childish name calling that will undoubtedly ensue somewhere along the lines if it hasn't already the decision will ultimately fall on the shoulders of each individual creator in their own individual situation . No one will have the exact same experience and not one of us has the exact same background or expertise when it comes to our own rights as creators or what kind of environment to expect and work for. Those who want their deals to go through Tpop on Tpop's terms will find a home with them, those who don't may or may not and will probably be completely unique to each situation. but those that refuse outright because of this matter, will undoubtedly not deal with them and that is a shame. Some will undoubtedly take 'sides,' as it were, on this arguement standing with their respective publishers and friends and see it only as an 'us against them' sort of thing, and although innevitable in many respects that won't truly help the industry or the community, turning creators against eachother is not what this is about...
the door is open, nobody can make Tpop walk through it and sit down at the table.
Sitting down at the table and discussing this for the betterment of everyone involved I think is the best thing that could come out of this whole mess.
PS
I'm sorry for the huge post Lea, and splitting it up and taking so much room... if you feel I've gone off track or am overindulgent feel free to delete these ^__^ I promise I won't take offense, really ^__^
I like that idea: someone from TP, someone other that a creator or editor, could come out and explain what they're all about.
Because, from where I'm sitting, it looks like nothing so much as a company abusing its position in the market to exploit a pool of hungry new talent.
As for "lock your ass out" as you so nicely put ( real mature )…you can dish it but you cant take it.
I’m done. Don’t want to contribute to you getting more press.
Good luck with your witch hunt.
Toren, Lea, Lisa, Robert, just to let ya know someone's getting something out of all this.
But, TO ME, this is more about exploiting ignorance and a search for validation, and I find that reprehensible. There is, and never will BE, a need to have any protion of a creator's copyright. The fine points of promotion, exploitation, etc., can all be worked out in contracts.
I point to Creator's Syndicate's submissions guidelines:
"When Creators Syndicate was founded in 1987, it revolutionized the industry by allowing cartoonists to own their work and have relatively short contracts. It set these policies to help correct past abuses in which cartoonists were fired from their own strips, given no input on the licensing of their characters or frustrated by syndicates that refused to tell them where their work appeared or even to answer their phone calls or letters.
The balance was totally lopsided in favor of the syndicates at the expense of cartoonists, and Creators was determined to improve the industry by giving power to the cartoonists.
This power does not come without responsibilities, however. And while the freedom that has become an industry standard has improved the way syndicates and cartoonists do business, the new system can also be abused to the detriment of all -- including cartoonists.
Of course, in cases where syndicates have been negligent and refuse to negotiate in good faith, cartoonists are perfectly justified in seeking new partners -- this is their right. But when syndicates live up to their side of the bargain, cartoonists should remain loyal -- it's the respectable response."