David Beroff ([info]d4b) wrote,
@ 2004-08-18 09:32:00
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Self-Identification
(Cross-posted to [info]lj_biz.)

Please forgive me if this is the incorrect place to post this; it seemed to me like an appropriate place, but if I'm wrong, our Moderator will kindly let me know.

The following meme appears to be spreading. (I got it from [info]remark who got it from [info]kamara on the LJ Support team, who got it from [info]bubba and [info]rahaeli, also on LJ Support, and so on.) It seems to be balanced, sincere, and well-written. The advice seems quite reasonable (although sadly, those who will need it most are also most likely to ignore it). The term, "we", implies that it was written by Someone Official within LJ, although attribution is never actually given (and should be).

My concern is mainly that a meme isn't necessarily the best way to propogate such information. Sure, they spread like wildfire, although there's not much to stop people from "enhancing" the message, sometimes subtly. But as viral as they can get, they still can't reach 100% of a given population.

I feel that there are better places where a similar plea can be shown, (e.g., [info]news), and have much better effect, if it does, in fact, represent an "official" position (and I see no reason why it shouldn't). For best effect, before being placed in [info]news, it could be placed into part of the sequence for new users. Even better, a flag could be maintained for every user to ensure that each person saw such a message at least once. Even better, such contact info could have explicit fields (with the same privacy assurances) within the LJ user data structure.

I'm not necessarily saying that any/all of these measures should be taken, but rather, if the concept is deemed to be a Good Idea, there are also Good Ways to promote it.

Here's the meme. Again, I'll stress that I did not write this personally, nor do I necessarily take a stand as to its correctness/usefulness:

Please post your full name, date of birth, full address, and telephone number (plus cell phone number, if you have one) to your journal, as the first chronological entry (backdated) in your journal, with Private security, and leave a note in your userinfo indicating that you've done so. The life you save may be your own. In the event of an emergency, LiveJournal administrators can view this information -- and please believe that it is only used in the event of an absolute emergency. But you'd be surprised how many of those there are on a service with four million users. And in an emergency situation, every second counts.

Yes, the Abuse team occasionally hears of users who plan to commit suicide, but there are other situations where having this information could possibly be of use to the police. There have been, for instance, phone posts that were interrupted by physical violence before, and other such situations. The Abuse team often gets reports of these things, and oftentimes, there is nothing we can do to help, because we can't find you.

Please take a moment of your time and make this post. Your privacy will never be violated except in absolute need, and though we hope it will never be necessary, it could prove to be very necessary indeed.

Originally written by [info]rahaeli as a personal plea and does not represent any official position on the part of LiveJournal!

You can add this meme to your own journal by going here.


Attribution is shown above; I just toned down the color a bit. I also added the final line, so that if (when) this is passed along as a meme, it allow others to simply copy-and-paste the HTML as follows:

<table bgcolor=#ff9999 border="1" cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0><tr><td><b>Please post your full name, date of birth, full address, and telephone number (plus cell phone number, if you have one) to your journal, as the first chronological entry (backdated) in your journal, with Private security, and leave a note in your userinfo indicating that you've done so.</b> The life you save may be your own. In the event of an emergency, LiveJournal administrators can view this information -- and please believe that it is only used in the event of an absolute emergency. But you'd be surprised how many of those there are on a service with four million users. And in an emergency situation, every second counts.<br /><br />Yes, the Abuse team occasionally hears of users who plan to commit suicide, but there are other situations where having this information could possibly be of use to the police. There have been, for instance, phone posts that were interrupted by physical violence before, and other such situations. The Abuse team often gets reports of these things, and oftentimes, there is <em>nothing we can do to help</em>, because we can't <em>find</em> you.<br /><br />Please take a moment of your time and make this post. Your privacy will never be violated except in absolute need, and though we hope it will never be necessary, it could prove to be very necessary indeed.<br /><br />Originally written by <lj user="rahaeli"> as a personal plea and does <em>not</em> represent any official position on the part of LiveJournal!<br /><br />You can add this meme to your own journal by going <a href=http://www.livejournal.com/users/d4b/793719.html#copy>here</a>. </td></tr></table>


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(Anonymous)
2004-08-18 01:20 pm UTC (link)

Anybody who does that is nuts.

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[info]d4b
2004-08-18 04:28 pm UTC (link)
The fact that this was posted anonymously and without any supporting argument somewhat proves my one point about, "those who will need it most are also most likely to ignore it". About 58%, or 2.4 million LJ users are teenagers. This is a time in one's development when self-destructive and suicidal tendencies sometimes flare. It is our collective, communal responsibility to help each other when we are most in need, and this is one way that we can help this to happen.

Little is truly anonymous on the Internet, but court subpoenas on ISP connection logs take a lot of time, and often there are only minutes available to intervene on a suicide attempt. Self-destructive behavior is often a form of calling out for help; this just allows the help to reach someone when it's most needed.

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[info]anjori
2004-08-18 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Please tell me what moron who plans to commit suicide and will actually follow through with it is going to post all their personal info in their journal so they can be stopped. If they plan to follow through and provide you with all that information, they're complete idiots and don't deserve to live anyway.

Of course if they don't plan on actually doing it, it's all irrevelant.

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[info]d4b
2004-08-18 05:29 pm UTC (link)
You presume a lot of sanity and rational thought. Yes, some people who are bent on killing themselves will do so; my uncle was one of them.

There's a ton of grey areas; I fell into them, myself, when I was younger. But you'll note that I'm still here; people do care, when they have a way to reach you.

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[info]mewmew
2004-08-18 11:22 pm UTC (link)
*poked around LJ and found this post*

You have to read the thing. It's not just for people who post in their journals that they want to commit scuicide. Phones posts can, and I'm sure have, been interupted by violence, just like the thing says. If that happens, people can help if there is a way to get your info. But, if the info in private only, than nobody can get into it unless the LJ staff feels it's needed. It's not just for the attention seekers who want to pretend they're going to kill themselves, or for those few nutjobs who really want to.

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[info]diannelamerc
2004-08-22 07:30 pm UTC (link)
It's not just for the attention seekers who want to pretend they're going to kill themselves, or for those few nutjobs who really want to.

Your openly bigotted ignorance of metal illness is stunning. I can only assume that you've had the blind fortune to have been spared any acquaintance with its devestating effects.

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[info]mewmew
2004-08-22 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Nope. Never known anyone who actually thought killing themselves was a good idea. I've been around some of the morons the claim they will so they can get attention, but never been around someone who later actually did. Alteast, not that I've ever found out about. I have lots of online friends/aquaintances I haven't seen in ages, so who knows what they could have done. But, nobody in real life. People around here are atleast smart enough to know killing themselves won't solve anything.

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[info]diannelamerc
2004-08-22 10:12 pm UTC (link)
You're lucky; I actually hope you remain so. More importantly, I sincerely hope no friend in trouble ever makes the mistake of coming to you for help or support.

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[info]propopdan
2005-07-15 03:13 am UTC (link)
agreed

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[info]lhld
2004-08-18 09:43 pm UTC (link)
something like that happened to a friend of mine a few years ago... decided she'd try & OD on OTC meds, but put it in her AWAY MESSAGE on aim... me & some of her other buddies kept trying to call the house, turns out someone had actually gotten ahold of her parents and they were at the hospital (which is why the rest of us couldn't get ahold of them, they'd all gone to the ER)

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[info]fyre
2004-08-19 02:02 am UTC (link)
I would be more than a little upset to know that the livejournal admins, and ESPECIALLY the lj abuse team (Who are little more than users who have earned trust by the admins/owners and help out) are poking around my journal reading my private entries. As a matter of fact I would be quite upset to know that anyone besides the database admins have access to private entries. I would be even more upset to know that LJ had a policy allowing access to private entries without a court order.

Therefore I will not be filling out this meme, and I would urge others not to. It's upsetting to think that the entries I earmarked as private are actually open to livejournal admins and livejournal volunteers. Upsetting enough for me to consider closing my account at livejournal or at the very least sending a question to the folks at Danga.

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[info]d4b
2004-08-19 08:56 am UTC (link)
Access is very limited. Volunteers do not have access at all. No policy; basically, they're not gonna poke around unless forced to.

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fizzygp
2004-08-25 04:05 am UTC (link)
I agree.

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[info]violetshade
2004-12-10 01:15 pm UTC (link)
You know, unless all private entries are encrypted there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that you can do to keep someone with admin access to the machine from reading anything they want to, including all of your private entries? Or, for that matter, arbitrarily editing your information? The volunteers wouldn't have access unless someone is an absolute idiot, but if you didn't expect the admins to have access to your entries if they really wanted them you clearly didn't think this through.

That being said, I'd be very surprised to hear that they were in fact wandering around looking at private entries. That is very Bad Mojo™, which the LJ team in general is decent at avoiding as far as I've noticed.

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[info]d4b
2004-12-10 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Exactly; it's the ying and yang of running such a service. The few who do have full access to the database certainly can read (and modify, as you point out) any unencrypted entry, but by the same token, have strong ethics so that this wouldn't occur unless absolutely necessary, e.g., technical or legal reasons.

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[info]yankssuck
2004-08-21 08:21 pm UTC (link)
Alothough since i would never commit sucide or talk about anything that personal on LiveJournal, ill pass.

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[info]sweet_kandi
2004-08-31 05:56 am UTC (link)
oh yes.. because im so sure that just everyone on livejournal cares if random people commit suicide. how stupid. anyone who goes through with that plan SHOULD commit suicide cuz thats how you end up getting raped! idiots..

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[info]d4b
2004-12-10 05:56 pm UTC (link)
I'll actually argue that one makes oneself more susceptible to such problems with a sheltered attitude. You can't adequately protect yourself by hiding. I teach my children (11 and 15) to hold themselves with confidence. They've also both completed their black belts in karate to protect themselves when necessary.

And actually, believe it or not, some people do care about others killing themselves.

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[info]qfemale
2004-10-03 12:25 am UTC (link)
I do not understand the negativity towards this.
I just did post my contact info in a privat post and now I will link it in my user-info. I also made a post and told my friends that I think this is a really good thing to do.
;-)

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[info]violetshade
2004-12-10 01:11 pm UTC (link)
Negativity!

The admins aren't sitting around waiting for these incidents. "Due to the high volume of requests and the fact that the Abuse Team is composed of volunteers, it may take time for your request to be answered. Some requests are handled within hours. Some others, especially the ones that require large amounts of investigation, may take several days, up to a week."

We're not talking Emergency Services here, people. Not only that, but there's no guarantee that one is actually at home when a phonepost is occurring, and if one is capable of answering the phone after whatever emergency one is also capable of dialing 911.

This isn't their job. Let me say that again. This isn't their job. It's like trying to make yourself safer by giving your number to the local Pizza place.

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Re:
[info]qfemale
2004-12-10 03:39 pm UTC (link)
what is your point?
there is nothing negative about what you said. you only said that the chance they can help us are very small.
but you know if they can save one life, the whole thing is worth it.

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[info]d4b
2004-12-10 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Fully agreed that this isn't their job. But things do come up, and most decent people will try to take action when it's reasonable to do so.

You are also correct that everyone needs to take primary responsibility for their own safety. But there's nothing wrong in making it easier to find oneself as part of that general philosophy.

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[info]arielmeadow
2004-10-11 11:48 pm UTC (link)
Here's another good reason to think about posting your contact info:
http://www.brandonvedas.com/

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[info]d4b
2004-10-12 04:50 am UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]joshrosen
2005-01-25 02:07 am UTC (link)
Makes enough sense. Although if just for the mods, why not link it to your account when you sign up and make the info private? Put it in system wide.

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[info]dreamin182
2005-03-05 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Personally I think its a great idea. Who knows what could happen to you..

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[info]amanda
2005-09-01 07:48 pm UTC (link)
Well, I just saw this post after checking out your journal from your latest post on lj-biz.

As a support volunteer......I would say this is a fantastic idea. Ok, I'm not on the abuse team, and I wouldn't see abuse tickets anyway......but knowing the people (or at least some of them who volunteer), I can say with full confidence that I trust them to do the right thing. I'm so adding a post to my journal, and the banner is going in my userinfo too.

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[info]d4b
2005-09-01 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]amanda
2005-09-01 09:21 pm UTC (link)
No problem. I'm also gonna recomment that my friends do this too. :)

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[info]prissi
2005-09-15 09:22 pm UTC (link)
I've done the same... followed [info]amanda's link (also a support voluteer). I've seen others do the same, but I never understood why until now. Though I am blessed to have a wonderful group of people who support me so that suicide is never even a thought, it may be... necessary to save the life of a friend.

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[info]violentsoul
2006-04-06 05:48 pm UTC (link)
I think that sounds like a beautiful idea very human I am always surprised by the negativity that can bring others to such things?
there are some comments above that does not make sense at all to me,some people are just so bored and frustrated that they have to pollute others?

I don't know you,but I am so aware of teen suicides and I used to be suicidal and I don't think it would be stupid to do so
Depressive are not stupid people who deserve to die and all that crap!
how pathetic and unhuman people can be to dare say such inepties?
anyway,I think some suicidal are scared of themselves and the way they can harm themselves and sometimes they need help this could be a way to help
I admire and respect this!
so thank you for creating this:)and having that idea
Take good care of yourself and blessed be***

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[info]d4b
2006-04-07 12:28 am UTC (link)
Aw, thanks; I needed that! :-) (I'm 2,000 miles from home right now.)

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[info]violentsoul
2006-04-07 12:07 pm UTC (link)
:) well you're welcome:)

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[info]qfemale
2008-03-20 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Hey I have a question. Why does it have to be the first entry? I have it linked in my user info since I created that post back in 2004.

Second, I just added a list of know allergies to the post since that might be helpful as well. Just thought I'd share that.

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[info]d4b
2008-03-20 09:43 pm UTC (link)
Guess they just figured it'd be easier to find that way.

Honestly, as others have pointed out, this isn't a substitute for medical attention; it's more a matter of giving some people an "in emergency break glass" way of connecting the dots. A bracelet might be a better place for allergy info.

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[info]qfemale
2008-03-20 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Well, you never know.
I'm allergic to Kiwi, I am not gonna wear a bracelet for that though. But you're right :-)

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