Micole ([info]coffeeandink) wrote,
@ 2005-06-14 08:20:00
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Entry tags:anime, books, feminism, manga, sf/f

Feminism and manga & anime: A personal history (1/3)
The kind of things people say at parties

"So what kinds of things did people talk about at this conference?"

"Oh, all kinds of stuff. Definitions of science fiction, race and gender, literary canons, feminism and anime--you know, Japanese animation?"

"Feminism and anime?" His smile says that he expects me to share the joke. "Those aren't two things that often go together."

I don't smile back.


The kind of things people put in panel descriptions

Anime: magical girls, panty shots, magical girls with panty shots. Seriously though, most know by now (or should) that anime can be a lot more than Pokemon, creepy tentacle porn, or big robots. What's feminist in anime, and what's not? Why? The gender divide in anime goes as deep as its marketing tactics in Japan (shoujo, or girls', anime, and shonen, or boys'). Discussion about gender, feminism, or progressive ideas in general, is often ignored or shouted down by fans who just want more of those panty shots. Let's get a conversation started.
     --Wiscon 29 Pocket Program



Alternate histories

Last year, at a panel, Justine Larbalestier said something like There are many histories of science fiction, as many histories and as many science fictions as there are readers; feminism wasn't an add-on to sf for her, feminist sf was what she started reading, for her it was the core of the field. For me, too--not all I read, but a lot of what I read, and how, and why; the rest of the world still seemed to think science fiction was a boy's game (hell, it still does), but I knew it was where the girls were. The girls and the women and the genderqueer and the working parents and the nonnuclear families and the multiracial, all the things that were my world, all the things that weren't in the mainstream books I found as a kid. With a few honorable exceptions, mainstream booksdescribed a world I found strange (some people might call it alien, but I read sf, I thought alien was good), a world that no longer existed, or that never really had, a fantasy I found nightmarish. Critics call sf escapist, but I saw my real world in sf, a world where my mother worked--and I liked it; a world where my friends' parents got divorced--and things turned out pretty much okay; a world where girls wanted to do more than marry when they grew up--and people would have thought it strange if domesticity had been their only ambition. You could call science fiction my escape, but if so, mainstream fiction was my prison. Like any prison, it offered much less liberty and independence than I was accustomed to, or felt I had a right to expect.

I guess I shouldn't have been surprised my history of anime didn't look much like the world thought it should, either.


Follow the money

Anime is Japanese animation. As far as I can tell, it started becoming mainstream-popular in the US in the late nineties, although it was a minority subinterest much earlier, more via amateur fan copies than professional production. By contrast, manga (comics) have boomed only in the past three to five years--and by "boom," I mean that 2003 saw a 100% increase in publication and the "downturn" of 2004 saw "only" a 40-50% increase. (See ICV2 for 2004 and 2003 figures.) Traditional sf publisher Del Rey recently announced that its new manga line had reached a million books in print. That's in print, not sold, and I haven't found out whether their manga is distributed as mass market or trade paperback--but let's be conservative and assume mass market. Typical mass market sell-through is 60-70%. At the low end, that's 600,000 volumes sold--with a line of six books, averaging 100,000 per book in a year. For the mass market, those are pretty good numbers--and indeed Del Rey's top sellers have started hitting the USA Today bestseller list.

And what's driving these figures is female readers.


But everybody knows girls don't read comics

Women are a minority in mainstream US comics: the most generous estimate puts them at 10% of the industry, and even that percentage drops considerably if we restrict the number to creators rather than including publishing personnel. The percentage of women reading comics is probably higher: I've seen estimates going as high as 30%, but I don't have any links to surveys to hand, so please don't quote me on that. It's clear, though, that the readership for US comics is disproportionately male. (I suspect it's also disproportionately white, but I have even less substantiated information on that.)

In Japan, by all accounts, women make up 50-60% of comics creators and readers.


Community and context

I came to anime by way of manga and I came to manga by way of media fandom.

"Media fandom" can mean many things and contains many populations; in this case, I mean a self-identified and predominantly female group of television watchers whose response to source texts is active engagement in communal response. This engagement may be critical (episode analyses, character guides, etc.) or creative (fan art, fan fiction, fan music videos)--although I would argue that the division between "critical" and "creative" here is largely artificial.

In early 2004, I was reading comics for the first time in years. It was Joss Whedon's fault, more or less: all his shows got canceled, I needed a Whedon fix, he was writing comics, I went into my local comics shop. A lot of my friends and acquaintances from media fandom seemed to be doing more or less the same thing, though their reading wasn't necessarily so Whedon-centric. I branched out, I tried other comics, and--

I wasn't quite satisfied.

Some of the comics were good, but they were good superhero comics, and superhero tropes don't speak to me the way the tropes of my favorite genres do. And it disturbed me that even when I liked the comics, most of them were written by men. I like women's writing; I always have. And I'm always conscious of the ways that it's made invisible.

While I was getting into comics, other women I knew were getting into manga. They made it sound interesting--and they'd mentioned that a lot of it was written by women. I was part of fandom. When I wanted to know more about which manga to try, I knew who to ask.

I didn't discover manga and anime by myself; I wasn't introduced to them by men; I didn't hear of them as men's porn or boys' toys. I approached them from the very beginning as a form of women's art and women's self-expression, sometimes created by and for women, and sometimes created by men but transformed or subverted by women in gendered ways. And from the very beginning, I was fascinated by the generic, narrative, and stylistic similarities I saw between fan fiction and shoujo (girls') comics--and by the fact that the type of fiction that was enjoyed by a minority subculture in the US was mainstream in Japan.

To be continued

2: Shoujo and shounen; slash and shounen-ai
3: Feminist anime and manga


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[info]kassrachel
2005-06-14 01:31 pm UTC (link)
This is awesome. Not only what you say (though I love your point that SF was the genre that reflected your reality) but also how you say it (the juxtaposition of the party conversation, the panel description, and then the way you begin the rest of the essay)...

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-14 08:29 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I'm glad the structure is working.

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[info]coalescent
2005-06-14 02:19 pm UTC (link)
Interesting post - really looking forward to seeing the rest.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-14 08:35 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for the encouragement. :) Please let me know if you have any questions or if I'm not explaining anything sufficiently -- it's hard to judge how much is too much or too little, given the mixture of audiences.

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[info]coalescent
2005-06-15 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Will do, but so far it's all good. Links to other posts are a definite plus. :)

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[info]lilrivkah
2005-06-14 02:23 pm UTC (link)
Excellent article. I look forward to reading the next two parts! :)

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-14 08:36 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]karawynn
2005-06-14 05:09 pm UTC (link)
nicely done, girl! keep going!

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[info]thomasyan
2005-06-14 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Interesting post. I look forward to the rest.

When I started getting bored with the SF I was reading, I turned to female and queer and black SF authors, and got excited about SF again.

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[info]laurashapiro
2005-06-14 05:34 pm UTC (link)
Thank you *so much* for this. Finally, context! And context I can understand!

I look forward to the rest.

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[info]oyceter
2005-06-14 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Oh, you rock! I was so angry when I went to the States and discovered that my new obsession with anime and manga was not only classified as something "male," but that everyone I mentioned it to would somehow bring in its connection with excessive violence and pornography. The things I read were not excessively violent or pornographic; furthermore, I really had little to no interest in most of what the American fandom (I clump it all into one giant homogenous lump, though I know that's faulty) classified as "essential" (Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, etc.). It was very irritating. Long story short, I ended up writing a thesis because I was so mad ;).

Oi, now I am tempted to write up my own personal history, heh, though I suspect it would be long and rambly and full of many parentheticals!

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-06-14 07:28 pm UTC (link)
If I had a dollar for every comment like, "Oh, that's that misogynist tentacle schoolgirl rape porn, right? The Japanese are such perverts. Did you know they feel up women in subways?" I would have enough money to buy the entire run of... OK, probably not Hana-Kimi, but definitely Utena.

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[info]whumpdotcom
2005-06-14 07:46 pm UTC (link)
I think the response to that is: "What on earth have you been watching?"

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-06-14 07:29 pm UTC (link)
You TOTALLY should write up your own history.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-14 07:39 pm UTC (link)
Oh, please write it up! I want to read it.

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[info]marith
2005-06-14 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Yes! I know exactly what you mean about mainstream fiction feeling alien but not in the good way. All the mainstream YA books I found as a kid/teenager revolved around trying to make friends at school, attract a boyfriend/girlfriend, get along with family and be normal - all things I felt a million miles away from. McKillip and Varley and Tiptree, they talked about relevant things.

(Although I do remember liking one about a boy living in the subway tunnels. That was alien a good way.)

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[info]wildgreentide
2005-06-15 01:50 pm UTC (link)
Was that Slake's Limbo, by Felice Holman? I remember loving that book, although I couldn't tell you anything more about now it than what you wrote above.

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[info]marith
2005-06-16 04:06 am UTC (link)
Was that Slake's Limbo, by Felice Holman? I remember loving that book, although I couldn't tell you anything more about now it than what you wrote above.

Yes, that was the one! I remember him selling papers and sweeping floors; it's the slow climb out of the abyss that always fascinates me in stories. This is how you put one foot in front of the other and survive, and then grow.

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[info]whumpdotcom
2005-06-14 06:57 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for summarizing the info on the American experience in Anime and Manga.

There really were at least two panels, and probably a third, all stuffed into 75 minutes.

I'm going to campaign to break those out for WisCon 30, but there'll probably be 20 panels on Serenity to compete with. :)

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-14 08:40 pm UTC (link)
I don't think there's a single American experience. I had friends who had an anime club in high school in the late eighties, for example, whose story would be very different; and there'd be a difference even in mine if I'd been enthralled enough with Miyazaki to go looking for more anime, instead of just looking for more Miyazaki.

I'm not sure how much of an audience there is for anime panels at Wiscon--the audience for the last one was pretty small. I suspect more people would be interested in one focused on Miyazaki in particular, who seems to be a breakthrough artist for non-anime fans the way Joss Whedon was for non-media fans.

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[info]whumpdotcom
2005-06-15 04:46 am UTC (link)
Oh, I was talking about the stats you were posting about the market for manga in the US, which is more data than experience. My bad there.

I was surprised at the smallish crowd at the WisCon panel, but it could had been a scheduling issue.

I'd like to see a panel on that concept Mari mentioned: the difference between "Warrior Women" in western media and the anime heroines she described as "Beautiful Fighters."

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[info]littlebutfierce
2005-06-15 02:53 pm UTC (link)
I was actually the person who suggested the panel (& wrote up the description on a whim in the middle of the night, which probably says something right there). I didn't think the panel was going to get voted through, & I certainly didn't want to be on it (too timid). Anyway, I was really surprised to hear Micole Sudberg say during the panel basically what you did--that you came to manga/anime because of its connection to women.

Because, yeah, there are a lot of different experiences. I wish I had the experience you two did; when I came to anime & manga six or seven years ago, for whatever reason I couldn't find anyone talking about it in a feminist/woman-friendly context. No one at anime cons (which I realize are very different creatures in some respects than other cons) seemed to be talking about it; I couldn't find anyone online (although this was before I was on LJ--although even now, there's not a ton) either. If anime & feminism were mentioned together, it was almost invariably in a derogatory manner. Or in a "I like to turn off my brain when I am consuming media, why can't you do the same?" one. Sure, there were (& are) tons of things out there written by, & intended for, women, but I was having a really hard time finding anyone who wanted to look @ that critically, or even admit that this was an important thing. Even w/in the feminist sf/f community, which often seemed to have the same "Oh, isn't that all about sex & schoolgirls in short skirts?" reaction as everyone else.

I didn't mean to sound like a jackass when I wrote the panel description--I had never heard of anyone I knew having an experience different from mine, & now I feel a bit foolish. But... things to keep in mind for next year (although perhaps someone else will submit the idea & write the panel description & do a better job than I)!

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-17 05:20 pm UTC (link)
You didn't sound like a jackass, and I didn't mean my post as an invalidation of other people's experiences; I'm sorry if it sounded like I did. But I'd heard a lot of people talking about the reactions they got to mentioning anime and had never gotten anything like the "oh, tentacle-porn?" reaction until last Saturday. :) I haven't been to any anime conventions, or for that matter been watching anime/reading manga very long, though, so I expect some of it is just inexperience on my part, although some of it is coming in at a different time as well as through different channels--a lot more is available in English than ever has been before, through both official and unofficial channels.

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[info]littlebutfierce
2005-06-28 04:41 pm UTC (link)
Oops, this got lost in the comment swamp of my inbox...

Anyway--eh, I generally feel like a jackass when I've forgotten that other people have experiences different than mine. ;) I think there's definitely more feminists talking about anime (in a positive way) than before, but they all seem to be coming out of general sf/f fandom (or general comic fandom). Anime fandom in general is really frustrating to me (for a lot of reasons), but most especially because of the lack of critical attitudes. I suppose most people who go to anime cons are happy to just cosplay & watch videos & go to panels that talk about sub vs. dub or possibly slash (because there are lots of slash fangirls, of course) or whatever, which is why the cons are the way they are. I just find there's more unthinking (but sometimes also even gleeful) sexism & racism among those crowds than I can easily take. I wish there was more discussion coming out of anime fandom (& not going into it, if you know what I mean). Even Shoujocon was disappointing in this respect*, but perhaps Onnafest will be different (since they specifically mention they're focusing on the positive aspects of women in manga & anime).

* Er. Not that fandom=cons, but you know...

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[info]telophase
2005-06-14 07:12 pm UTC (link)
Word on the thing about superheroes. While I'll indulge in the occasional bit of superhero reading, for the most part I bounce off it. And invariably whenever someone approaches me at a con to propose that I do art for this comic series they're writing, it's a superhero series.
So I tell them "I don't do superheroes."

And they always say, "But mine's different! It's ..." [insert description of Watchmen here.] And they point to the one picture on my table that's not manga (DA's being wonky or I'd link you to it - it's a woman's back with a tattoo), and tell me to use that style.

Sorry, guys. I draw manga. And I don't do superheroes.

reposted with correct HTML this time

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-06-14 07:29 pm UTC (link)
This is great. I look forward to the next parts.

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[info]ranalore
2005-06-14 08:47 pm UTC (link)
Wow, this is interesting. And I feel classifying anime solely by the tentacleporn subgenre is like classifying all fantasy as sword-and-sorcery. One should not assume one's limited reading constitutes All There Is of any genre.

I'm very excited to see the followups to this.

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[info]wychwood
2005-06-14 08:59 pm UTC (link)
This is a fascinating discussion! Thank you for posting it :)

You could call science fiction my escape, but if so, mainstream fiction was my prison.

Would it be ok with you if I stole this line and made an icon based on it? It's just so true...

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-17 05:17 pm UTC (link)
Sure.

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I'm really liking this
[info]icklefirsties
2005-06-14 11:26 pm UTC (link)
I'm coming to manga from comics, and anime from manga. In analyzing your personal history, you're helping me go through some of the suff I'm really liking in manga, and some of the stuff I've really liked in comics. (not to mention some of the examples of things I don't like in either)

Very much looking forward to your next two posts.

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[info]ontogenesis
2005-06-15 04:49 am UTC (link)
Quite interesting, especially since I have felt the exact same way about S.F. and American comics. I'll be looking for the next segment eagerly.

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(Anonymous)
2005-06-15 09:01 pm UTC (link)
Nice job on this so far! I also really like your description of the "fantastic" better reflecting your reality. It reminds me of Ursula K. Le Guin's reaction to her Earthsea books being effectively "whitewashed" for the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series.

For me, I never actually read that much sci-fi as a kid, but I did read a lot of fantasy. And though I'm a guy, I found myself tending to like reading books from female authors most of the time, not to mention books with gender issues.

Some favorites as a kid were Hero and the Crown by Robin McKinley, about a princess who fights a dragon. The Last Herald Mage trilogy by Mercedes Lackey, about a gay boy who becomes a legendary sorcerer. My favorite Pern book (ok, that's kind of sci-fi) is probably Dragonsong, about a girl who goes against the odds to pursue music.

One thing I've found interesting lately is to look back and compare my relationship with books to those of comics. I became interested in comics at the time, but it was largely about fancy art and collecting, riding along on the energy of the newly created Image. More recently, I would get into anime, then manga, then american comics again, but from a totally new perspective.

I can't help thinking that if manga was around back then as it is now, I would have embraced it in the same way that I embraced novels. I probably would have read a lot of shoujo and would have kept a much healthier relationship with comics in general as I grew older.

Thankfully, I see the issue of "anime is violent tenticle porn" fading lately, though it is still there. The whole issue really soured me on Akira for a while actually, since it was always held up as the best anime movie and yet had to have turned off sooo many people from anime. Ghost in the Shell was somewhat better in that respect, but still not the best "first anime" for many people. Using a Miyazaki seems like a much better intro for most people (besides using something specifically relevant to the person's tastes of course).

A big positive I see lately in comics is manga proving not just that ladies read comics, but that kids in general read them, and that many topics (romance, sports, etc) can be popular. The influence is going to be huge in a few years and is already started. It isn't just the creators in Rising Stars of Manga. It is Bryan Lee O'Malley's Scott Pilgrim. It is the Flight Anthology. It is Derek Kirk Kim. Indy comic creators are growing up with manga and animation and fusing it into their own personal styles. It is a world away from things like the Marvel Mangaverse.

Anyway.. this is long enough... :)
Shawn

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[info]angharad
2005-06-16 07:47 pm UTC (link)
You could call science fiction my escape, but if so, mainstream fiction was my prison.

Marvelous sentence. I kind of want to [info]metaquotes this.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-17 05:07 pm UTC (link)
Sure, if you like.

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[info]dreamoflight
2005-06-17 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Here from Metaquotes, and can I just say I agree completely? I was introduced to manga a few years ago by a female friend-- so I didn't come into it thinking it was all Pokemon and tentacles, and people with that view bemuse me.

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[info]yinepuhotep
2005-06-17 11:13 pm UTC (link)
*blinkblink* WisCon

I remember WisCon.

I was sexually assaulted at WisCon 10, not 20 feet from the registration desk, and the security people laughed.

When the security people told me I should have just let her do whatever she wanted, I tried reporting it to a cop, who told me that it didn't matter what I said - if SHE said that I had assaulted HER, I would be the one to go to jail, so did I REALLY want to pursue it?

Needless to say, I never returned to WisCon.

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[info]sashayaki
2005-06-18 12:54 am UTC (link)
Here from Metaquotes. Really great essay! I completely agree with what you say. :) I got into anime/manga mainly because I love the art and, like you, wasn't very keen on the superhero thing. It's so nice to see someone writing about this topic so eloquently. Looking forward to the rest!

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[info]raisedbymoogles
2005-06-18 09:43 am UTC (link)
+faved! Looking forward to the rest.

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[info]badficwriter
2005-06-19 04:06 am UTC (link)
Drifted here from metaquotes, because I became interested. It's funny, I've been aware of anime for years, because the type of men I like like it, so I've seen all the classics. But I've been avoiding the manga...for no good reason, except possibly that the backwards reading irritates me and nothing I briefly looked at appealed to me.

I suppose my tastes are more male. I like the superheroes, I even like the tentacle porn. Like you, my desperate search for more (in my case, Daredevil) led me to fanfiction, first the serialized gen, then the female-dominated prose novel and shipfic, and before I knew it I was hipdeep in a buncha girls and gay guys. It's been a novel experience for this tomboy.

So congrats! You've convinced me to go looking for manga. More fanfiction can only be a good thing.

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Hello
[info]applez
2005-06-22 02:18 pm UTC (link)
Came here through [info]coalescent ... just wanted to add a quick comment (that someone else may have done already): with regards to anime/manga and feminism, clearly Miyazaki deserves fairly high marks for his portrayal & expectations of his female characters.

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[info]heresluck
2005-06-27 03:58 pm UTC (link)
I liked this. Looking forward to the rest.

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here from metafandom
[info]lifeby_thedrop
2005-07-04 01:54 am UTC (link)
I enjoyed this first part. I just came from seeing Howl's Moving Castle - which I highly recommend - and while I have been aware of and been a general fan of anime for years (remember G-force?)I hadn't really seen much of it until lately when I decided to try to systematically watch the "classics." I'm also relatively new to manga (Petshop of Horrors, and I think you are on to something when you talk about the "individual histories" we experience as readers. Because we make selections based on our tastes and recommendations from friends or people we trust, it is pretty easy to shut down the large percentage that exists in any genre that may not personally jive with us.
Good thinking here. I'm off to look for the other parts.

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my start in anime & feminism.
[info]rashaka
2005-07-19 08:02 am UTC (link)
My first 2 anime series were a mixture of shoujo and shounen and anime, and they probably shaped heavily what I expected out of anime and women's roles in anime for everything I saw afterward.

Like many people who discovered anime in the 90s, I started with Sailor Moon (a lot of people also started with DBZ-- I got into that a bit later-- these were the two gateway anime series of the 90s for American audiences), a magical-girl power series. Right off I liked the girl power stuff and the girls-kicking-ass and the romantic element crossed with the fantasy/superhero element. Although Serena/Usagi, the main character, does embody a lot of the things that annoy me in other girls, things I find gender-stereotypical at times, she was nonetheless a strong female character surrounded by other strong female characters. And if she didn't always kick as much ass as I like my heros to kick, her female teammates certainly kicked more than enough to make up for it.

At this point I was still blissfully unaware of tentacle sex porn and panty-shot fan service style anime.

Next I watched Gundam Wing, one of my all-time favorites. Gundam Wing is primarily about 6 teenage characters--- 5 boys, and off-setting them, one girl. Each character gets about the same amount of screen time, with main boy Heero and girl Relena getting a little more than the rest. Although "technically" a shounen anime, GW was positively WONDERFUL for female fans: it was filled with cute boys and strong women. Relena, the main female character, ends up A) becoming a politician, B) ruling the world [literally], C) being ousted from queen-of-the-world position only to come back and become one of the solar system's most influencial politicians, AGAIN. What do the boys do? Well... they blow up a lot of stuff, do some political intrigue, assassinate some people, and in the end do their damnedest to keep the girl in power. Add to that a host of compelling and competetant female side characters, both good and evil, that push the plot just as much as the male side characters.

Strong female characters? Political intrigue? Heavy character development? Dense plot? Cute guys? ...yeah, you can say I adored Gundam Wing.

I also came out of my first two shows with a predisposition to seeing female characters in interesting and leadership roles. I also liked fighting and scifi and bishounen... but not if the female characters weren't cool too.

Later on I discovered what I did and didn't like about typical female character types in anime. I developed an instant distaste for what I call "harem" anime. A group of over-endowed female characters chasing a single, often unimpressive, male character. I simply loathe stuff like that.

Actually, the anime that has most offended me (besides most hentai), is Chobits. That's the most anti-female, debasing, insulting anime I've ever seen, trying to disguise itself as romance, and I can't stand how any self-respecting female can stand to watch it.

Yet... it's got a lot of female fans. ::shrug:: Sometimes people baffle me.

Having watched/read anime and manga for several years now, all through high school and into college, I've discovered I like a range of genres, most prominantly adventure stuff. But the quickest way for a series to turn me off is to have sexist themes or female characters I can't respect.

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