Micole ([info]coffeeandink) wrote,
@ 2005-04-19 02:25:00
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Entry tags:a: minekura kazuya, manga

[Manga] Openings: Kazuya Minekura, Saiyuki (3/3)
[Part 1] [Part 2]


I am tired of calling the other guy "the other guy," so I am just going to call him Hakkai, even though that's not his name at this point in time. I could make a good argument, actually, that he doesn't have a name just now, even though he almost certainly thinks he still does--but you don't need to know that for the discussion of these two pages, so let's leave that aside. "Hakkai" is how he was introduced back in Volume 1, and "Hakkai" is what I'll use.

Now that we've settled that pressing matter, let's talk about art. Click on a picture to go to a larger version of it.

Saiyuki V.5, pp.16-17
Saiyuki 5.17 Saiyki 5.16



Space

The immediately striking thing about these two pages is how few and how big the panels are--they've only got four panels each, unless you want to call the words between panels on p.16 a borderless panel. Most pages have 5-6 panels; p. 12 also has only four, but there are a few reasons it didn't have the same feeling of roominess or of close attention, focus, as the pages we're looking at right now, for a couple of reasons:

  1. 12.3 takes up half the page, although it's positioned in a way to obscure this, slightly--so although there's one very large panel, the others are small to make up for it. This doesn't quite explain everything, though, because p. 17 has nearly the same layout, yet the feel of the two pages is very different:

    p. 17p. 12
    Saiyuki 5.17 Saiyki 5.16


  2. The difference is that p. 12's panels are crowded with both detail and people. There's a close-up shot of the cluttered table, and two panels of people with three or four people in them--even if only one of those people is important enough for his face to be seen. By contrast, most of the panels in pp.16-17 have only one person in them, and most of them are close-up shots instead of the medium-view shots that characterize p. 12.


This change is doing a few different things:
  1. First, 12.1-16.2 give us a progressively closer and more intimate view of Gojyo--we start with the externals and an overview (12.3), proceed through the first-person narration of the next three pages, and conclude with a close-up reaction shot (16.2) and more internal monologue.

  2. It's signalling a shift in the kind of scene being shown. Previously, we saw public scenes and private ones; now we're going to see intimate conversations, scenes whose importance lies in the interactions of these two people--which is why we're going to see more of their faces than anything else.


Open eyes


In my last post, I discussed the slowed-down passage of time over the past couple of pages--and time is still moving pretty slowly here. The first two panels on p. 16 clearly take place the instant after the panel on p. 15 and echo their construction and content.

Remember when I said to keep paying attention to eyes? Now the first person besides Gojyo to get a panel to himself is the first person besides Gojyo whose eyes we see. He's got a face. He's important. And we're seeing him from a more level perspective, he's horizontal in respect to Gojyo now rather than being in the head-down diagonal from p. 15--the more we (Gojyo) see him, the stronger his position becomes.

And we see Gojyo's shocked response. This is the first time we've seen Gojyo full-face rather than in profile since p. 12--and on p. 12 we weren't nearly so close in. Note that his eyes are looking slightly down, so we're sure what he's looking at, but that he's facing straight ahead, his head unbowed--this, like the positioning of Hakkai's panel opposite him, sets them on an equal plane despite the physical setup. And it emphasizes the shift from earlier in the scene when Gojyo was thinking, "I guess it works if I don't look anyone in the eye." He's looking someone in the eye now--and someone's looking back. The scanlation has "I thought he laughed when he looked at me" and Tokyopop has "He looked at me ... and smiled, I think," but either way, it seems pretty clear that even in the original the phrasing is emphasizing the importance of the look--and that Hakkai, on the ground, for that second is the person with the power in this personal interaction--the person whose gaze is the determining one. (And this is going to be picked up later on, when Gojyo feels their connection is confirmed because Hakkai sees the same thing when he looks at Gojyo that Gojyo sees when he looks at himself--hair and eyes the color of blood.)

Even if you came in at Volume 5 and didn't know that three years later these two would be so totally married best friends, I think you'd get that this is a really important encounter by now.

Hidden

Hakkai has one eye obscured by bandage and hair, partly to fool us into thinking that we know why he'll be wearing a monocle in Volume 1, but also for symbolic reasons: one of his eyes is obscured because he's obscuring himself. This is different from the eyes we didn't see for the people at the tavern in pp.12-13, as is the fact that he doesn't tell Gojyo his name here or in the subsequent scene. The others' eyes and names were obscured because the people were unimportant; Hakkai's are obscured because he's hiding things.

So is Gojyo, of course, but Gojyo is hiding things in plain sight, like his "dyed" hair. It's worth noting that one of Gojyo's eyes is blacked out in 16.2--mirroring Hakkai's.

Change in perspective

Gojyo's thoughts signal the end of the scene and the shift in point-of-view; the next scene will start out from Hakkai's perspective. The sound effects on either side of Gojyo's words are the sound of falling rain, carrying over information from the previous panels, and also, along with Gojyo's words, creating the sense of the scene ending with sound after the visuals have ended but before their impression has faded away. It's a very cinematic effect--sound continuing after the picture has faded to black. Or brightened to white, as the case may be.

Confirming the shift in perspective, we see Hakkai's eyes opening in 16.3. Hakkai's upside-down eyes, which is one of our clues to the shift in perspective--this is the kind of image that indicates we're getting an expressionist view of the character's state of mind, which is clearly disoriented, and it's also easing us through the change by providing visual continuity as a mirror-image of Hakkai's face in 16.1. The other hint of scene change is the bandage -- clearly enough time has passed for someone to have cleaned him up and bandaged him.

16.4 pulls back as Hakkai becomes aware of his surroundings--and the vertiginous effect of the view from above and the placement of Hakkai's head at the bottom of the frame aren't accidental. Note that we see him in five panels over these two pages--and every single one has him facing in a different direction or being seen from a different angle. His world's askew and he's trying to get the information to put it back into order. He doesn't know where he is; he's disoriented--although the fact that he's not quite as upside-down in 16.4 as he was in 16.3 indicates that he's getting his bearings, as does the fact that we (and he) can see his surroundings in the later panel.

By 17.1, he's even right side up for a moment, able to take stock of the room in 17.2. We know that he doesn't panic when presented with a strange place--and we know he expects to be in hell.

(Side note: The word the scanlators translated as "mediocre" has been different in all four translations I've seen. Tokyopop has it as "anti-climactic" and Gojyo responding, "Who're you calling anti-climactic?", I guess because the next panel and the part on p. 20 where Gojyo tells Hakkai that picking him up was the first and only time he was going to carry a man to his bed just weren't enough innuendo for them.)

Personal space

So we have another weird angle, an abrupt and startling appearance--Gojyo is direct and confrontational and in Hakkai's personal space. (And also, arguably, flirting. Because Minekura is generous with her subtext.) Gojyo's challenge is clearly not a real threat--you could read it as playful or as male status games or as a combination of the two--but part of it is also regaining some of the power or balance he'd lost in the encounter in 16.1-2. To go back to a recurring theme--part of what's discomfiting about this is Gojyo's position, but part of it is just the stare, made uncomfortable by the light above and by the impossibility of escaping it--and Hakkai stares back, eyes very wide. He's much more startled than he was by waking up in a strange place or in Hell, even if not quite as startled as Gojyo was when the dying man met his eyes and laughed.

Maybe one of you can think of something intelligent to say about the way the panels are lit in 16.1-2 and 17.3-4; I'm kind of stuck on "It's pretty."


Postscript

So I was seized by this mad impulse to keep going--there are three more pages in this scene! There are later Gojyo-Hakkai scenes which provide useful to comparisons to these!--but I'm not sure how much I really have left to say. I'll just mention a few things that struck me:

  1. In the following pages, and for most of the next to Gojyo-Hakkai scenes, every time we see Hakkai, he's looking down. Head bowed, avoiding Gojyo's gaze, self-effacement or guilt or some combination of the two--not really a feeling of exposure, I think, because the two of them get along like gangbusters. When Hakkai does look up and face forward--when we finally get a direct look at his face rather than his profile, and when he's also looking straight ahead rather than down--it's very significant. It's also significant when he looks up. Frankly, you don't want Hakkai on his knees. You really don't. You're not going to like what he does next.

  2. There are a lot of panels that set Hakkai and Gojyo up as reflections of each other. Facing each other, facing away, either way they're deliberately paralleled--precisely, of course, in the way they're mirror-images in the storyline, the way they see themselves in each other.

  3. The change of scene mid-p.20 is signalled by: (a) a slightly larger horizontal gutter between the last panel of one scene and the first panel of the other than the gutter between the two panels in the same scene; (b) the first panel of the new scene bleeding off the right edge of the page, in contrast to the panels of the previous scene, which have considerable a considerable margin; (c) birdseye landscape/building view.


If curiosity about what those pages look like or what it signifies when Hakkai looks straight out makes you buy Saiyuki, hey, I'm perfectly okay with that.



[Other manga posts]


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[info]octopedingenue
2005-04-19 06:43 am UTC (link)
they are SO married This is gorgeous and fascinating. Thank you.

Hakkai's "!" look at Goyjo's hair in his face in the last panel still cracks me up.

There's also probably a reason the starburst of light by Gojyo's head is almost scratching out that same eye that gets traumatized on everybody.

Frankly, you don't want Hakkai on his knees. You really don't. Because you're not going to like what he does next.

Well said. One of the reasons I adore him and never quite trust him.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-04-19 03:55 pm UTC (link)
Hakkai's "!" look at Goyjo's hair in his face in the last panel still cracks me up.

Really, those two panels tickle me too much for me to analyze them.

I was trying to figure out a way to summarize Gojyo's attitude towards personal space, but it's harder than I'd thought it would be.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-04-19 01:36 pm UTC (link)
I did mention I bought vol. 1 of _Saiyuki_, right? This will be so helpful when I get to reading it. Thanks.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-04-19 02:41 pm UTC (link)
You did! I was happy to see it, although paradoxically anxious that I talked it up too much, especially since Volume 1 isn't the strongest part of the series.

Mostly I'm hoping that you do like one of the three and won't feel like you've blown the money and time on nothing.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-04-19 02:48 pm UTC (link)
I'll keep in mind that vol. 1 isn't the strongest part of the series. And I know the feeling (I almost said "no, wait, it's not _that_ good!" when a couple people said they were buying _Anvil of the World_ on my recommendation).

I figure that even if I don't like any of the three, they won't be nothing--at least I'll _know_ and won't be tempted any more. Like _Hero_--hated it, but now I know not to watch Asian dramas any more.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-04-19 03:51 pm UTC (link)
Ha! You were a very big part of my picking up Anvil of the World in bookstores several times--although I kept putting it down again because I'm trying not to buy books for a while, and as tempting as the opening is, I really disliked her first novel and suspect she is just not the writer for me.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-04-19 04:07 pm UTC (link)
I think it might depend on what you didn't like about the first one--they're very different--but if you're trying not to buy books, then I shouldn't tempt you. And it's not as though there aren't plenty of other books to be read.

There's no chance you'll be at Readercon, is there?

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-04-19 04:28 pm UTC (link)
I don't even remember what it was very well, and I'm not sure it was even something I could describe for someone else, because it had nothing to do with the quality of the writing, which was fine; there was just something about the tone and the main character that put me on edge.

I'm not planning anything but Wiscon for literary fandom and Vividcon for media fandom, and I'm worried that Wiscon might be pushing my comfort level. Theoretically it ought to be easier the second time around, but I'm feeling a bit stressed in general.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-04-19 04:34 pm UTC (link)
Mendoza puts a lot of people on edge.

Don't be stressed! I think it very likely that it will be easier the second time around.

*soothing not!hugs*

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-04-21 03:41 pm UTC (link)
:) Thank you. Rationally, I think so, too.

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-04-24 04:31 am UTC (link)
Baker's first book bugged me, and the second one bored me. Then for some reason I picked up the third and fourth, and adored them. Then I picked up her book of short stories, and the introductions to the stories annoyed the hell out me-- I forget the details, but there was a page-long political rant which had one major factual untruth and also had a "I've heard some anonymous people say some outrageous things, so the entire movement is insane." (I forget the details, but it was the same reasoning as "Feminists say all sex is rape and heterosexual men should be arrested, so feminists are a bunch of Nazis.") So now I'm off on her again. (Before I could read Anvil.)

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-04-20 01:32 am UTC (link)
Which other manga did you buy? Saiyuki is my favorite manga, but it seems pretty episodic until volume four. I was hooked from one, but four is when it gets really good.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-04-20 01:40 am UTC (link)
Volumes 1 of _Planetes_ and _Hana-Kimi_.

Also, Mely, the county library system has all four volumes of _Clover_, so unless I can't deal with any manga at all, I'll give that a try too.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-04-21 03:42 pm UTC (link)
No one can claim you're not giving the medium a fair shot. :)

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-04-24 04:26 am UTC (link)
A lot of Asian dramas have better plots and characterization than Hero-- actually, martial arts movies are not generally noted for their plots. If you like moody police dramas and wistful character-based comedies, you might check out (respectively) Infernal Affairs and Chungking Express, which are in memories under "movies" but which for some reason I can't directly link to on this computer-which-is-not-mine.




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[info]fourthage
2005-04-19 01:57 pm UTC (link)
I'm delurking to tell you how much I've enjoyed these posts on Saiyuki. They prompted me to re-read my books and added a whole new level of enjoyment. Thank you.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-04-19 03:52 pm UTC (link)
I'm very glad to hear it! I was convinced only three or four people were reading these things.

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[info]fourthage
2005-04-20 12:49 am UTC (link)
Oh, no. I forget how I stumbled across your journal, but I was very excited to find someone who writes intelligently about manga (though it makes the wait for new volumes harder).

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[info]telophase
2005-04-19 02:06 pm UTC (link)
Ah, I just noticed that Minekura's following something I've noticed in Shonen Jump works - if there's a full-bleed panel, it doesn't bleed into the gutter between the pages. At least on the examples you've shown - I can't recall if that's the case in teh rest of the books.

Not anything significant thematically, just a technical issue from the desire not to see any art bound into the gutter, I think, or a house rule in whatever magazine it gets serialized in.

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[info]lnhammer
2005-04-19 02:29 pm UTC (link)
Bleeding into the gutter is hard to print, unless your printer has really good registration.

---L.

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[info]telophase
2005-04-19 02:32 pm UTC (link)
I've seen it in many, many manga, so much that now it jumps out at me when they *don't* have the bleeds going into the gutter. Obviously, it's especially prevalent in shoujo where panel borders are considered to be suggestions rahter than rules. :)

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-04-19 02:40 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure if that's the case. A lot of the panels that look like they have edges on the scans bleed into the gutter between pages in the Tokyopop books. Then again, that may be an unintended artifact of the American binding, which does seem to be tighter than desired, to detriment of panels that span two pages. You can see this in collected versions of US comics, too, which is one of the reasons I've kept my Sandman single issues. (Okay, mainly that's sentiment and not knowing where I could get rid of them. But anyway.)

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-04-20 01:36 am UTC (link)
Good catch on Gojyo's eye being blacked out in that panel. And yeah, Hakkai on his knees = bad news.

I love Gojyo's hair dangling into the panel over Hakkai's face. Everything you said, and also-- there's his Significant Hair again-- and when you read further on you realize that the hair had to have been very eye-catching to Hakkai at that moment too.

I am convinced that the Ultimate Translation of that mystery word is "low-life."

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[info]kintail
2005-06-04 12:03 am UTC (link)
I followed [info]louiselux's rec here, and I found this really fascinating (and wish you *would* continue). Thanks so much for taking the time to share your insights. ^_^

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-08 09:53 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]louiselux
2005-06-08 10:38 am UTC (link)
Thanks so much for these posts - they've really given me a new set of eyes when looking at this scene. So much so that I've taken what you've pointed out here and have run with it, in my own close reading of certain scenes in the series. It's a seriously fun thing to do:)

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-06-08 09:53 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for letting me know! I'm glad they were useful.

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[info]wedjateye
2006-04-06 12:25 pm UTC (link)
Hi. Can't quite recall how I got here (some link from International Saiyuki Week I think), but I just wanted to say how fascinating I found reading this. It beautifully expressed some things I'd noticed while reading Saiyuki (or most likely re-reading), and also gave me lots of insight into many things I'd never even thought of. I like Saiyuki so much because it stands up to deeper inspection - there is always something more to find.

Thanks for finding so much!

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[info]chomiji
2007-02-23 05:21 pm UTC (link)

Thank you so much for doing this!

I am new to manga in general (having just started with Samurai Deeper Kyo last fall) and Saiyuki in particular (just read vols. 1-9 this past week), and this really is helping me appreciate what I'm seeing.

(Actually, I've run into your posts several times while searching on Google for all sorts of things about books I love - you have a lot of wonderful things to say about a lot of things I like!)

- Cho

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[info]shinidanie
2008-08-09 01:40 pm UTC (link)
so interesting.
I read the whole things about Saiyuki plus the analyses about Tsubasa reservoir Chronicle.

I was really impressed about your analyses about Saiyuki. As it's one of my favourite manga it's always really interesting. It makes me want to read again the serie.
It's even more interesting that i'm drawing and Minekura is one of my...hm...model so ...In a point of view for someone who tries to make comics, it's even more interesting. You spoke a lot about panel, directions and such...really a good post.

thanks for it and if you do some others, i hope i will be able to read it.

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