Micole ([info]coffeeandink) wrote,
@ 2005-02-09 14:03:00
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Reading manga
This started off as a comment in [info]sisabet's journal, but I'm putting it up here as a very, very rough draft of a post on visual conventions in manga that I hope to get around to this weekend. You may want to wait till the weekend to check it out--although if any of you have comments or corrections, I'd love to hear them.

Spoilers for Imadoki! volume 1 and X volume 16, and thank you to [info]soragamieru for some of the page scans.



Some broad generalizations:

Page layout

  1. Western comics tend to have very static page layouts. Panels are almost always bordered panels, and are usually rectangular or square. When bordered panels are juxtaposed with unbordered panels, most often the unbordered "panel" is the entire page, with some other panels inset.

    (I suspect the use of panels of a similar size and shape is also subliminally reassuring because it reminds people of strips of film and creates an expectation of progression--but I may be reaching.)

    I'm sure there are exceptions to this--I was recently looking at one of [info]tzikeh's Hellblazer tpbs which had a lot of diagonal frames--but I think it's a valid description of most of the Western comics I know, which would be superhero comics and the Vertigo line (which differs in content but visually is very much in the superhero tradition). It also seemed to be true of most of the alt and indie comics I have, although I have an even smaller sample size there. Alan Moore plays around with this a lot in Promethea, by the way, and if I have time, I'll try to talk about how it differs from manga later on.

    This means that layout is not something you really need to process when you're looking at Western comics, or that a lot of the processing is automatic, because the layout is so consistent. Here's an example from Nightwing, which I chose partly because the way the panels are offset is slightly unusual -- and yet it's very, very tame compared to what manga does:



    When I was learning to read Western comics, I would pretty much always look at the text first, and then go back and look at the art. I'm sure there were some exceptions, but most of the visuals I remember from comics are visuals with no text in the panels, or on the entire page, because if you show me a page with text and images, I'm going to look at the text first. I am not a visual thinker, and I have a tropism towards prose.

  2. This kind of layout shows up a lot in shonen (boys') manga, but it's not the only kind of layout even there--and it's really, really rare in most of the manga I've been reading, which are shojo (girls') manga.

    Below is a page from Death Note, a shonen comic, and you can see that the panel layout is very familiar. Reads right-to-left.



  3. And this is a very shojo page layout from Imadoki!:



    Page one has a mixture of bordered and unbordered panels; notice the smaller, bordered, inset ones are all "closeups" drawing attention to the small changes in the boy's emotional reactions and leading you to page two, where his reaction is writ large, to emphasize how very important it is. In context, we've been getting to know these kids for about 150 pages and this is literally the first time we've seen the boy smile. And bang! She's in love. This reads right-to-left, so the reading order is (1) the boy's face; (2) the boy's speech bubble; (3) the girl. And the diagonal panel division draws the eye up, so you spend longer looking at that top panel, the boy and the sunset, before dropping down to see the girl's reaction, with the speech bubble connecting the two panels to guide the transition.

    In order to read manga, you need to look at the entire page before you look at individual panels. Trying to look at the panels first can make pages literally incoherent -- I'll try to find a good shot of this, probably from X, where I couldn't make out what was happening in a panel because I didn't realize it was only part of a picture that made up the entire page background.


Visual conventions of manga

  1. Characters or scenes who take up one side of the page, acting as the background for multiple panels or being put to one side, so that the other panels in some ways reflect on that one figure. This is an example from X:

    The two characters are Subaru in white and Seishiro in black. You need to Seishiro's hand in the background in order for the rest of the page to make sense, but you also need to see the inset of Seishiro and Subaru for the close-up of Subaru's eye to make sense.

  2. This picture also shows one of the other shojo characteristics, which is the closeup on parts of the body--usually eyes, but here also hands--which I think of as the equivalent of reaction shots on television. They're a way to slow the narrative down, a way to say that the characters' emotional reactions are as significant to the story as the actions. (I think this has a lot to do with girls reading for emotion, and has some relevance to the peculiar flaws and virtues of fanfiction, too, but that's a big digression.)

  3. So there's a lot going on in this page. In terms of action, it's just Seishiro taking a cigarette from Subaru and smoking it. But we also get a close-up of Seishiro's bloody hand holding the cigarette. The cigarette represents the sexual attraction between the men (and in the manga, cigarettes are explicitly tied to Subaru's attempts to grow strong enough to challenge Seishiro, adding a layer of meaning you don't get in the anime), but the blood represents what's keeping them apart, which is Seishiro's crimes more than they're currently being on opposite sides. And just to reinforce this, we get the panel of Subaru's eyes--this makes it clear that the hand is so big because it's *what Subaru is looking at*. And, of course, the bandage is another signifier of Subaru's desire to be like Seishiro and to be punished for loving Seishiro.
(This reads right-to-left.)





  1. Manga panel border divisions are also really different. In Understanding Comics, Scott McCloud talks a lot about the importance of the gutter, the empty space between panels. A lot of manga pages just don't have this--they have lines dividing up the space, and the lines themselves aren't straight but are frequently diagonal. There's a different and larger set of default panel shapes than Western comics have (basically rectangle and square).

  2. When pages do use gutters, they often use them differently--bordered panels will alternate with unbordered panels, or borderless panels will be used to draw attention to a particular image--sometimes a flashback and sometimes just an image that's important for some reason, usually emotional; the borderless image is like the flash of thought that interrupts a linear narrative, a momentary eruption of stream of consciousness. In both of the examples from X, above and to the right, you can tell that the hand is the most important image on the page, that all the other panels are leading up or commenting on that particular image. Also see Imadoki! above for different panel shapes and borders.

  3. Manga quite often looks very crowded by the standards of Western comics, although I'm not sure if this is because there *is* more detail or because it's harder to parse detail in black and white. One of the reasons I recommend Clover and Saiyuki as first manga to people is that they both have (very different) styles that minimize the information overload, Clover by use of negative space and Saiyuki by use of greyscale and contrast.
This reads right-to-left.



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[info]kalmn
2005-02-09 11:43 am UTC (link)
are you coming to wiscon again? i *so* need to get you together with my gf; you're similarly geeky.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-09 11:45 am UTC (link)
Yes, yes. Need to buy membership, possibly reserve hotel room (last year's host may be moving), and, um, sorry about flaking on the programming suggestions.

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[info]whumpdotcom
2005-02-09 02:24 pm UTC (link)
If you're coming, I think there's a couple of manga/anime panels in your future.

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[info]cliosfolly
2005-02-09 11:46 am UTC (link)
Neat! I'm looking forward to your finished version. A couple of thoughts in the meantime:

(I suspect the use of panels of a similar size and shape is also subliminally reassuring because it reminds people of strips of film and creates an expectation of progression--but I may be reaching.)

It seems like this would be applicable to Japanese as well, as they're equally familiar with narrative progression in film. But you might also be interested in having a look at--although it's probably further than you want to go--the history of visual narrative in the two cultures. I don't know what it's like for Japan, but even illuminations in West European medieval manuscripts default to a left-to-right linear narrative progression, with illuminations (whether a focus of the page or in the margins) symmetrical in size and layout; and even when multple events share the same space, there's usually left-to-rightish chronological movement (and often top to bottom, though I think there are some exceptions, perhaps where movement progresses towards salvation and, by moving towards the top of the page, the narrative structure approaches heaven).

I think that Fruits Basket might turn up some examples of text that won't make sense until read after the images; I've really had to push myself away from reading text-first in that series for that very reason--also because speech-bubbles aren't as directly connected to the character as in American comics. Though I've wondered about that, as I know that characters might have accents and vocal tics that won't cross the translation barrier, which would make attribution of speech more easily understood by a Japanese-literate reader withouth the necessity of prioritizing visuals. And though this really isn't the same issue as the visual narrative being prioritized over the textual narrative, does raise the issue of what we miss generally in translation.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-09 11:54 am UTC (link)
It seems like this would be applicable to Japanese as well, as they're equally familiar with narrative progression in film.

Right--and that would be why it's more common in shonen, which focuses more on action, than in shojo, which is more impressionistic and psychological. Hmm. I see I need a paragraph on what shonen and shojo are and do, or at least how they're being presented in the US.

But you might also be interested in having a look at--although it's probably further than you want to go--the history of visual narrative in the two cultures.

Do you have any recommendations?

I've been trying to remember 18th-century cartoon narratives (Hogarth etc.) and whether they include frames or not. Need to look this up.

I think that Fruits Basket might turn up some examples of text that won't make sense until read after the images; I've really had to push myself away from reading text-first in that series for that very reason--also because speech-bubbles aren't as directly connected to the character as in American comics. Though I've wondered about that, as I know that characters might have accents and vocal tics that won't cross the translation barrier, which would make attribution of speech more easily understood by a Japanese-literate reader withouth the necessity of prioritizing visuals.

This is definitely true--and I suspect it's a lot easier to do indirect speech attribution in Japanese simply because there are so many forms of "I". If you have two characters who habitually use different forms in the same frame, you don't need visual cues to associate a bubble with a particular speaker.

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[info]telophase
2005-02-09 12:01 pm UTC (link)
From my experience, action is easier to get across in a structured fashion. If you do a loose version of it, what's happening overall, and what's first and what's next, which actions lead to what, are *really* confusing. Hiroaki Samura, in Blade of the Immortal, is a master at action, I think - and it's not a coincidence that he follows the shounen convention of structuring the panels - you can follow his art the way it's paneled, but if he hadn't done that, it would get totally lost.

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[info]cliosfolly
2005-02-09 12:17 pm UTC (link)
What I know about narrative in manuscripts has been picked up in seminars and conference presentation, so I don't know the particular articles or works to recommend. Some of the below might be useful (and I'd recommend Calkins to start with: he was one of my professors and typically says sensible stuff).

One of the particular examples of narrative progression in Western manuscripts that I had in mind was that of the Utrecht Psalter; a brief prose description of it is here and a digital facsimile with great descriptions of the illuminations is here.

CALKINS, Robert G. "Narrative in image and text in medieval illuminated manuscripts." Medieval Perspectives, 7, (1992), 1-18.

Watts, Barbara J. "Sandro Botticelli's illustrations for Inferno VIII and IX: narrative revision and the role of manuscript tradition: correspondences between the narrative and the images" Word & Image, v. 11 (Apr./June 1995) p. 149-73.

DONER, Janet R. "Illuminating romance: narrative, rubric, and image in Mons, BU 331/206, Paris, BN fr. 1453, and Paris, BN, fr. 12577."
Shows that these manuscripts reveal distinctive patterns of narrative-rubric-image relationships, and argues that tensions among these elements may be attributable to technical aspects of the production process
In: Arthuriana: Quarterly of the International Arthurian Society, North American Branch, 9:3, (1999), 3-26.

STEINHAUSER, Kenneth B. "Narrative and illumination in the Beatus Apocalypse."
With reference to the two earliest extant manuscripts: MSS. New York, Pierpont Morgan Library, 644 and Girona, Museo Diocesano, 7 which represent the third or last edition of this work by Beatus de Liébana
Catholic Historical Review, 81:2, (1995), 185-210.

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-02-09 12:28 pm UTC (link)
This is definitely true--and I suspect it's a lot easier to do indirect speech attribution in Japanese simply because there are so many forms of "I". If you have two characters who habitually use different forms in the same frame, you don't need visual cues to associate a bubble with a particular speaker.

True, but in Japanese you don't need to use "I" (or "you") anywhere near as much as you do in English-- and it sounds weird if you use them too much. So yeah, you can easily distinguish speakers that way if you want to, but I don't think you can do it all the time.

Also, in a lot of manga with big ensemble casts (which is a lot of manga) a lot of the characters will use the same forms, like in Saiyuki, if I recall correctly, you always know when Hakkai's speaking because he's the only one who uses "boku." Theoretically, that only helps with Hakkai-and-someone-else, but in fact Saiyuki is a bad example because those guys all have really distinct speech patterns.

So if you have fourteen Celestial Warriors and, let's say, ten of them use "ore," it's back to identification by distinctive speech patterns and visuals again.

In terms of the history of visual narratives in Japan, you might look up illustrated novels, which have a very long history over there. I will dig up mine and see if it uses panel divisions at all.

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indirect speech attribution
[info]jinian
2005-02-09 08:02 pm UTC (link)
And it's not always just the pronouns, no da.

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[info]loligo
2005-02-09 11:55 am UTC (link)
I finally finished vol. 9 of Saiyuki last night (one good thing about the flu was that I didn't have to feel apologetic for wallowing in manga all weekend), and I was continually surprised at *how damn long* it took me to read. I mean, a really wordy page might have, what, 20 words? And the rest is pictures! But each volume felt like it took near as long as a real book of the same length. (Though I think by the end I finally starting getting in a real groove.)

another signifier of Subaru's desire to be like Seishiro and to be punished for loving Seishiro

Oh, this sentence is so very tantalizing, but those pages from X made my head hurt.


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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-09 12:11 pm UTC (link)
Really? I find manga reads much faster than the same number of pages in prose, although probably more slowly than comics.

Watch the X anime first -- I found it really helped me understand the very many spacially weird things going on in the manga.

Also, you REALLY NEED TO SEE Episode 7 for several scenes which don't have manga counterparts. You in particular. Trust me.

If you rent it, don't watch Episode 0, which is a teaser ep that manages to both spoil the hell out of later plot developments *and* be tremendously boring.

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-02-09 12:29 pm UTC (link)
The prettier the art, the longer I spend staring at individual pages.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-09 12:13 pm UTC (link)
Wait, maybe I mean Episode 9. *looks up episode list* Yes. Episode 9.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-11 09:16 am UTC (link)
Also: you finished Saiyuki! Isn't it wonderful? Doesn't the plot twist at the end of Volume 9 ROCK? I'm so excited about all the implications for the underlying plot and the overall story arc.

Saiyuki Gaiden next, and then Reload.

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-02-11 09:53 am UTC (link)
I like the plot twist, but I LOVE the Mah-jong.

...I need a Goku icon.

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[info]telophase
2005-02-09 11:57 am UTC (link)
Thoughts, random, more or less useful:

--it's an often-used manga convention that when you're in a flashback, the page that the panels are sitting in is black. I've never run across that in Western comics, but I admittedly haven't read too widely in that.

--when Western comics change the panel layout from the static, it's because they're drawing extra-special attention to it - I just read a Hellblazer graphic novel where one of the issues had the panels sort of staggering drunkenly across the pages for a section - that was the section dealing with the population of a town giving in to a mob madness. Before that and afterwards, the panels were static and 'normal'.

-- 'Full bleed' is the term for panels going up the the edge of the apge - not /quite/ the borderless panels you're talking about, since there may be some borders - the panel inset into the bottom one with the cigarette in your borderless-panel image is a full bleed, since it goes off the edge of the page at the bottom, but it's still got borders.

--I just noticed in my latest Shonen Jump issue that all the full bleeds in all the stories went off the /outside/ page edges - the edges that *didn't* go into the gutter of the magazine. Gutter edges of pages all had clearly defined panel borders. I don't know if this is because the American SJ is usig differently-sized paper than the Japanese, so they had to pick an edge to extend and they drew the borders in themselves, or it it's a Japanese SJ convention to avoid losing information into the gutter. There didn't seem to be any two-page splash pages in this issue, so I'll have to check previous issues to see what they did.

--Manga use panels to slow down and speed up time more than Western comics do - Western comics do it for action scenes, but manga do it for mood as well, to stretch out a moment and emphasize it or make it unbearably long.

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[info]telophase
2005-02-09 12:11 pm UTC (link)
And there's something else I've seen several times in manga but not Western comics about speech bubbles - you normally lay them into each panel in the direction your culture reads, and you lay your panels out in the direction your culture reads, but sometimes in manga they don't do that, and use the speech bubbles to direct your eye the way the page should be read. That's not quite what I want to say, but I can't express it correctly. I'll scan a sample page in when I get home from work - I know I've seen Fruits Basket do it.

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[info]telophase
2005-02-09 04:18 pm UTC (link)
Here's what I mean about the spoeech balloons. In Japanese, as you know, Bob, the default reading direction is from right to left. If you slap bubbles down, peole are going to read them right to left. If you need to make them read left to right for some reason, you have to cue the reader by having the bubbles laid down in a pattern that shows the reader how to do it.

This is a two-page spread from Fruits Basket 7, with an arrow making the visual flow incredibly bleedin' obvious:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/telophase/FB-balloons-1.jpg

This is the same two-page spread, modified to delete the cues - bubbles that bridge two panels - along with the newly modified reading order. Which is more complicated, actually, and the page as a whole flows better if you read it backwards in a couple of places.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/telophase/FB-balloons-2.jpg

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-09 12:15 pm UTC (link)
I think we may have been looking at the same volume of Hellblazer, although I didn't read far enough along to see that the style didn't continue. Man starves to death despite eating too much?

Thank you especially for the terminology.

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[info]telophase
2005-02-09 12:28 pm UTC (link)
No, it was one that collected some issues that dealt with Constantine's past. I've forgotten the details of that particular story, but it involved the town going crazy, indulging in murderous mayhem, and storming a nearby USAF base.

I love Hellblazer, but I hate the art. The characters are strong enough to overcome my deep loathing for all Hellblazer art except for Tim Bradstreet's covers.

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[info]technocracygirl
2005-02-09 12:17 pm UTC (link)
You (or other people who read a lot more manga than Western comics) may not have this problem, but when I'm reading the more modern manga, the ones that aren't flipped around -- for me, it's currently Hellsing and Tokyo Babylon, I have to think about the panel layout much more than I do in Western comics. Even when I'm very engrossed in the story, I have to think about where my eyes are going to go next, which panel will give me the next piece in the story. I think that this affects how I read and how I process the story. I'll try to write more on this later, when I don't have to pull stuff out of the centrifuge.

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[info]cliosfolly
2005-02-09 12:33 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I definitely have to do that, too. It's a bit distracting and makes the process less of an enjoyable read for me than novels. I imagine it's an experience that wouldn't register with me had I grown up reading them that way; and I think it's something I'll grow accustomed to over time.

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[info]oracne
2005-02-09 12:41 pm UTC (link)
I grew up reading Western superhero comics--my older brother collected original X-Men and the like--but I've never had a problem reading manga, even though I didn't see any until I was in high school in the early 80s...maybe because the first ones I saw were all shonen, like "Dr. Slump," and I adapted then?

Maybe there's a window for comics-reading similar to the window for language-learning!

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[info]kate_nepveu
2005-02-09 01:13 pm UTC (link)
There may be. I've had both the too-much-detail and the wrong-way reactions upon opening manga in the last year or two and put them down.

And I like noticing things like the different lettering for the Endless, or the way that panels are bordered or laid out.

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[info]veejane
2005-02-09 02:24 pm UTC (link)
I have trouble reading manga as well. I do a little better with western comics, in part because of the streamlining of visual direction. But mostly, I think I am so verbal that I skip ahead (unconsciously) to the words, which kind of misses the point of manga/comics in the first place.

(I do recall one significant western way of denoting two different I-perspectives within a single comic, without directional word-bubbles: different fonts/BG colors for the narration boxes. In Batman: Year One, Batman talks in handwriting on yellow, while Jim Gordon is print on white. The best part is in the middle, when they pass each other in the night, not yet having met.)

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-09 02:54 pm UTC (link)
I do recall one significant western way of denoting two different I-perspectives within a single comic, without directional word-bubbles: different fonts/BG colors for the narration boxes. In Batman: Year One, Batman talks in handwriting on yellow, while Jim Gordon is print on white. The best part is in the middle, when they pass each other in the night, not yet having met.)

It's not infrequent, although I think probably the most masterful use of it is in Watchmen, where Moore will have two different narration/speech bubbles going on and a third stream of action in the visuals, and it's all coherent and all three streams reflect each other.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-10 07:55 am UTC (link)
Huh. I have tended to wave off complaints about right-to-left reading impatiently, I'll admit, since I was used to this from Hebrew school very young.

Sometimes characters will have different lettering styles, but it's usually saved for extraordinary cases -- as with the Endless. In Fruits Basket, the characters are often represented as little stylized animal heads in their speech balloons (for the characters who transform into animals).

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[info]telophase
2005-02-10 08:29 am UTC (link)
Rurouni Kenshin will also do that when it's not clear who's speaking - the artist puts a little chibi head of the character in their speech balloon to tag it.

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-02-10 10:56 am UTC (link)
Oh, I was meaning to ask-- a) how much of a hassle would it be, b) would it look too goofy if you did a teeny sunglasses tag on a few of Rivas' speech balloons where it's otherwise not immediately obvious who's talking? I'm thinking especially of page 3.

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[info]telophase
2005-02-10 11:41 am UTC (link)
I hand't even /thought/ of the sunglasses - I'd thought about doing a chibi puppy head for Jordan, but didn't want to use a cat until we saw Rivas doing that later. File that in the "Well, duh" file.

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-02-10 11:46 am UTC (link)
If you go all-out with that:

Sunglasses for Rivas.

Chibi puppy head for Jordan.

A rose for Nick.

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-02-10 11:51 am UTC (link)
Ack, Mely, sorry to spam your journal with incomprehensible artistic discussions. We'll take it email now.

(But if anyone other than Mely is reading this, [info]telophase and I are doing a manga with three major characters, and we're trying to figure out how to identify their dialogue in cases where it isn't obvious from speech patterns or visuals. Rivas always wears sunglasses, Jordan sometimes appears as a chibi puppy (there's a manga convention which strikes lots of people as unbearably jarring), and Nick, for reasons I won't get into, is associated with roses. All three of these things are shown upon the characters' first appearance, so the readers will know whose marker is what by the time markers are used.)

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[info]cmshaw
2005-02-09 01:33 pm UTC (link)
fascinating! does this explain why i usually fail to make heads or tails of doujinshi?

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[info]telophase
2005-02-09 04:24 pm UTC (link)
I'm speculating that there's also an element of amateurism in doujinshi, such that they sometimes haven't got the cues right to show you which way to read and which way to go. I notice that most doujinshi that I've read are really light on the backgrounds, more so than even shoujo, so that the characters are interacting in a big white box of a room with only a prop or two to keep them company, and this also keeps you off-balance because there's nothing to tell you where they are and how they fit into the environment.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-10 07:49 am UTC (link)
It may depend on visual knowledge and sensitivity then, because I find the manga with minimal backgrounds much easier to parse -- I think my biggest problem with manga visual interpretation is that there's so much detail I literally can't parse it into whatever it's supposed to represent. I picked up X 17 yesterday and I'm still having this problem with the series.

Some of it's also not being accustomed to black-and-white and it's affected by problems interpreting action and scene transitions as well--in many cases manga will become clearer after I've seen the scene animated--but I'm much more likely to understand minimalist manga art than the crowded kind.

I also wouldn't discount artist error for both professional and amateur work, to be honest -- I can see a clear progression over time in the works of Yu Watase, Kaori Yuki, and Yoko Matsushida. In their early work, I often have a hard time figuring out the proper reading order of panels; their later work is much improved.

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[info]telophase
2005-02-10 08:28 am UTC (link)
I'm not talking about manga with sparse, simple backgrounds like Tramps Like Us, which style I love, but the doujinshi I've seen that have even less - I'll have to upload a couple of sample pics once I get home. They also tend not to do things which add visual interest, like vary the camera angles in the panels, and they often use tones to substitute for a background.

I'll stop babbling until I get home and get examples to show you what I mean. :)

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[info]rachelmanija
2005-02-10 11:04 am UTC (link)
Oooh! X 17 is out!

I just read Matsushida's Descendants of Darkness # 3, and I think her layout has definitely gotten clearer-- in the first two volumes it was really hard to tell what was going on and in what order things were happening.

She also had a single moment of layout genius, which is that the first twenty or so pages are busy, busy, busy, and then suddenly we realize that a new character (Muraki) has appeared who has a very fraught relationship with one of the protagonists (Tsuzuki), but we haven't actually gotten a good look at Muraki yet-- and then you turn the page and there's a two page spread, full bleed (no panels), with nothing on it but white space, a tiny bit of dialogue, and Muraki standing on one page, looking across at Tsuzuki, who's sprawled on the other page.

On a side note, manga also does something which Western comics don't so much, which is include elements which are there to set the scene or provide emotional texture, and where the sequence doesn't matter. I'm thinking of the example in Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, where a woman's cooking in her kitchen and we see panels with bits of action-- carrots being chopped, a pot of water boiling, a tea kettle whistling-- and there no way to tell if it's simultaneous or sequential, but it really doens't matter.

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[info]rushthatspeaks
2005-02-09 11:19 pm UTC (link)
There's a long tradition in Japanese art of having the spatial center of a composition unfilled, or having it not be the focus of the action and emotion; this is in direct contrast to the Western model (often seen in portraits) wherein the center is of greatest importance and the edges diminish in emphasis as they move outwards. I've never actually analyzed what this does to comics panel layout, as opposed to the content within panels, but it's so readily obvious in anime that I think it must also be major in manga. (My classic visual example for anime is Utena: look at how the entire opening sequence falls away from the center, which is the gap between Utena and Anthy's hands, or the gap between the chests of the horses battering one another, or is simply unoccupied by major elements in sequences such as Utena and Anthy walking away from the camera, or the outward diagonal slashes made by each of the duellists in their segments. I find decentralized composition to be fairly obvious but not as major in things like the opening sequence to Yami no Matsuei, and it's very rare to find an anime in which it isn't present as a significant element.)

It seems likely to me that the simple, square-in-sequence layouts that one encounters in many Western comics do not fit this aesthetic, making diagonals, insets, panels over a large background image, and so on more unconsciously pleasing as well as narratively flexible.

On the other hand, it's been ages since I've studied Japanese spatial conceptions, and then it was mostly from an architectural perspective. The book I'd recommend on the entire subject of how Japanese art views space (and I badly need to reread it myself) is Jun'ichiro Tanizaki's In Praise of Shadows.

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-02-10 07:53 am UTC (link)
That is fascinating.

I was thinking of the diagonal inserts in a much more utilitarian fashion--you get more space to draw at one end for each panel than you would get with rectangular panels.

I am very interested in the whole question of perspective -- it seems to me that manga is much more likely to draw actions at a slant or from an angle, rather than defaulting to the straightforward head-on. (With sometimes unfortunate results, as when characters will be so twisted they look like they've broken their necks ...)

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[info]lilrivkah
2005-03-03 06:50 am UTC (link)
This is a beautiful discussion. ;_;

I agree with you on all the points you made between Western comics and different genres of manga. But there's another thing that's been overlooked: vertical vs. horizontal frame layout. When working on "Steady Beat," I have to constantly keep in mind where and how the dialog is going to fall. Unlike Japanese which can read either horizontal or vertical, English always falls horizontal, and therefore the panel layout is generally restrained to such. Japanese comics can do pages of vertical panels that sweep across the page, create a dramatic break, and still maintaining the dialog. There's something visually stunning about the vertical layouts that's difficult to achieve in the more restrained space of the horizontal layout--due to the nature of it being 8" of space compared to 5". :D Maybe I'm looking a little too deep, but it's a recurring thought that simply won't go away.

It also makes a difference in what body parts you're drawing. I notice a lot of shots in Japanese comics where the artist shows the side of the face and along the side of the body while the character is speaking, lending a nice effect, but it's a little more difficult to do that when it's all written in English . . . unless I want to make my editor very unhappy and have one word a line with multiple breakups for longer words. *lol*

*rolls in all the happy theories and technicalities* >_

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[info]coffeeandink
2005-03-03 07:19 pm UTC (link)
That's interesting point, because I've tended to think of manga as more cramped, visually, than Western comics--there are almost never big splash pages, for example, and even when there are, they're usually not two-page spreads, or even one full page.

I wonder if it's possible to get some the vertical layout with English-language manga by separating out the visual panel from the speech panel -- I've just got this image of a left-side panel of someone's profile overlaid on an offset black panel with white text.

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[info]painless_j
2007-03-20 08:46 pm UTC (link)
Hi,

I was linked to this post of yours when some people in comments to one of my posts asked to be taught to read manga. Thank you very much! It's really helpful.

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