Thanks for pointing out the pitfalls. Any chance she'll be doing a reading in Boston?

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I'm sure she will do some event in Boston eventually, but she's put a moratorium on new invitations until she finishes book two.

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That's good to know -- a well-respected agent once referred me to some other agents -- folks he knew well -- but I didn't use his name, because I thought it wouldn't be very effective to say -- well, he didn't take it, but he thought you might be interested. Without the referral, nobody said yes to reading the book. I'd do it differently another time after reading this, so, thanks.

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Absolutely! I have other agent friends who often refer things my way, and vice versa. We know each other well, and sometimes get something we know is good but just isn't for us. I've signed a client from an agent referral, and I've had two other writers signed by agents I referred them to. One hand washes the other. ;^)

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Was just sitting here procrastinating and wishing Barry Goldblatt would give me some new and exciting commentary and/or links to read so I could stretch out my procrastination a bit longer before tackling revision of Chapter 6 and -- ta da! You cooperated on both accounts. Thanks!

LazyShennieBlue

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Always good to know that I can contribute to Procrastinators R Us. ;^)

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Do you market Childrens books or young adult books, like what Holly writes? Don't worry. I don't have a manuscript. (yet...) :P

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Children's books, meaning everything from board books up through YA novels like Holly's, are all I currently handle. There may come a time down the road when I expand into the adult book market, probably because one or two of my clients might just write books for it, but I don't plan to do so any time soon.

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if I meet your wife at the signing, and she says, "That's my husband Barry over there", that's a referral, right? Just kidding!

I have heard from agents in the past that if you meet someone they represent at a conference and they have looked at your work, and tell you to contact their agent, that's okay, yes? If I did something like that, I'd contact the writer in question first and confirm that they do remember me and that it's okay to use their name. I have a situation like this, but have nothing to write about so I haven't contacted the agent in question yet.

katherine

P.S. - Tell your wife to look at her LJ and see if she likes the Victorian references I sent her!

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The key is that they've looked at your work. Many of my clients have referred writers to me whose work they've personally seen and think has potential. That's the way it's supposed to work.

Of course, I should add the caveat that most of my clients (and most published authors for that matter) aren't going to take the time to read just anyone's work at the drop of a hat. But if you get to do a critique with one, or are in a good critique group, that could easily lead to a referral.

I'll tell Libba to take a look!

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I was in a class taught by the author in question, so that's how she saw the work.

kath

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some friends and I were chatting the other day about referrals and other means to remove our manuscripts from various slushpiles. A friend said you should actually note the referral on the outside of the envelope you send to an agent.

Then another friend said if you don't have a referral you should put the name of the conference you saw the agent at (or even note that you're a member of SCBWI) on the outside of the envelope.

This all seems kind of silly to me - and possibly even more likely to get you slushed (because it seems like only newbies would freak out and write on envelopes). But I could be wrong. I am a lot.

What's your say, o wise one?

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SCBWI has always told people to mention on the outside of the envelope what conference they saw an editor/agent speak. I still don't understand why. I mean, hopefully if you heard me speak, you at least now know what not to send me, and how not to send it, but beyond that, I don't see that it impacts me at all that you were one of 100-200 people sitting in the audience. On the other hand, if for one reason or another, you actually spend time sitting and chatting with me, and I ask to see your work, well, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Make sense?

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yeah, that makes plenty of sense.

Thanks for the answer - I now have some important information to impart upon my know-it-all friends. haha.

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Why does SCBWI say so? Because some editors (not most, but some) do give priority to READING mss from conference attendees--not acquiring them, of course, but at least reading them and possibly sending a personal response. They say so in their presentations. They tell people to note it on the envelopes.

And of course, SCBWI has a vested interest in convincing people to believe that membership holds weight with editors. We all know that for all the good SCBWI does, membership hardly guarantees that a person is capable of producing a publishable manuscript. I assume the same would be true for SFWA or the Romance Writers one or any other similar group.

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Well, one difference with SFWA is you do have to have either three short story sales (to professional markets) or one novel sale to join.

Not that three short stories are any guarantee against being a bad writer. :-) But it does shift the odds a little, at least.

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Thanks for adding to my knowledge of SFWA, Janni. That's good to know. I suppose technically SCBWI does something similar with the full/associate memberships, but I'm not sure how particular they are about the publishing venue.

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I almost forgot about SFWA associate memberships--those still require a single short story sale, as I recall.

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You think you've heard it all. And then you hear something like this.

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Your name is well enough known for someone to be name-dropping to make themselves seem more important by association!

Okay, maybe there is no good news...

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To be fair, I don't think anyone's trying to make themselves look important by referring me (can't imagine how that would work). But I do think it's much more of a common human reaction to say that you have some form of answer rather than responding "I don't know."

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If someone recommends an agent to me, I will mention it because it shows I did my homework. It shows that I am researching the agents that I would want to handle my work. Most agents appreciate this and will respond with a request. Why is this worse than someone picking you out of a market book?

FYI, I haven't done this to you. I have no intentions of seeking your services. :-)

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It's worse because it actually implies some kind of personal connection, which of course there isn't. In effect, it's exactly the same as just finding my name in a book. The latter is more honest.

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. :-)

To me, if I say that someone mentioned an agent's name to me and that's how I found the agent, that's not implying anything than what is stated, imo. I mean, it doesn't have to mean beans to you but to say it's worse than finding an agent in a market book is rather harsh, especially when seeking agents through personal connections is tight.

If you believe these people were trying to make you believe they had an actual referral, I can see your point. But I'm going to try to believe they were being genuine. Maybe I'm naive?!

I appreciate this blog--I love it when an agent lets us know what they're thinking and dealing with from day to day.

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I'm sure Barry will pipe up here, but the term "referral" has a specific meaning in the writing business. When I write on a cover letter that Carolyn Keene referred me, this means Carolyn Keene is a personal or professional acquiantance of the agent or editor, and is also familiar with my work. Basically, having a referral doesn't just mean you've done your homework, it means your work is recommended to the editor or agent by someone s/he trusts. And, therefore, that agent or editor is going to give it priority.

Maybe that clarifies a little? :) (Except, of course, no one could have a referral from or to Carolyn Keene.)

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You're right on, Laura. I count on referrals to give me the heads up on something that someone I know and respect has read and thinks is really worth my attention. Just getting my name from someone who may or may not even know me means absolutely squat.

Loved the Carolyn Keene example...but I can top it with a real example. Just a few months ago I got a submission with a cover letter that said Robert Cormier had referred the writer to me. I didn't know whether to laugh, be appalled at the writer's complete lack of intelligence, or consider asking him if his spiritual connection with Cormier on the other side might ask if Robert could write a book from beyond the grave.

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Well I often break hearts by telling adults Carolyn Keene wasn't a real person.

I think that one was owed a letter asking about channeling Cormier. Maybe you could hire an assistant just for that.

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It's not really a question of being genuine. I don't doubt that these writers were given my name by someone. But that just doesn't mean anything, esp. if I don't even know the person, which is the case here.

In the case of two of these so-called referrals, the material submitted was for nonfiction. As I clearly state in every article or interview about my agency, I don't handle nonfiction. So, these writers completely wasted their time and mine. See why the referral meant less than nothing?

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Hey Barry--I was at a conference this weekend and got the chance to eat lunch with Editor from Imprint of Big House and, thinking of this post in your LJ, asked her specifically about writing stuff on the envelope (conference attendee, what have you) and she said she has two piles, one for agented or people with whom there's some connection (including referrals, ms critiques at a conference, or mere conference attendance), and slush. I asked specifically if the first pile was only for CLOSE contacts, and she said no, just hearing her speak was enough to get you into that faster pile (which moves twice as fast as the other). She even corrected me when I called those subs slush. She didn't really give her reasons, though.

Just another thing to put in my editor notes--who likes writing on envelopes and who doesn't. Sheesh.

FWIW.

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This post happens to hit home. I recently got a rejection letter from an agent. In what I thought was a very gracious gesture, she had handwritten some names in the margins of other agents who might be interested in my YA novel. I assumed she had a relationship with these agents and sent out queries mentioning the agents name as a referral. Now, after reading your post, I'm beginning to wonder if that was a mistake. Do you agents keep a secret black book with the names of authors who have committed egregious blunders in query letters, and pass it around during your secret meetings, forever ruining a would-be authors chances of ever being published? Are you giggling at me every time you see my name on a business size envelope? Do I have a permanent record, and is there any way to get it expunged?

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No secret black book that I'm aware of. Sure, some of us swap war stories, but this business is so subjective; remember, something I hate may make another agent or editor jump up and down over. So don't worry, unless you were one of those writers who followed an editor/agent into the bathroom to make a pitch; then you really are in trouble.

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