astolat ([info]astolat) wrote,
@ 2004-09-07 00:32:00
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Worldcon report
Back from Worldcon, and wow, what an experience. Escapade's the largest con I've ever been to before this, and I have to say, the shift from 225 to 6500 was a little daunting. Well, that and the sheer non-stop-action of it all. Dealers room, art show, concourse, panels running from 10am - 10pm every day, and then giant sprawling room parties afterwards.


Of interest mainly to NYC/Boston folks -- because we were traveling Thursday while the Republicans were still in town (mutter), we decided that giving Penn Station a miss was definitely the right idea. So I hunted around and managed to find something called the Limoliner -- basically this is a big luxury bus that runs from NYC to Boston and DC. I don't do well on buses usually, but surprisingly it turned out to be just fine, and it brought us literally right outside our hotel. Worth checking out if you're looking for a different way to travel -- it's not a lot cheaper than the train, but a bit less, with reserved seating and easy & quick boarding.

On to the con. We arrived at 5pm and C. immediately had to run to a panel he was moderating while I waited on a scarily long line to check into the Sheraton, one of something like five hotels being used for the con. (!) I unpacked and settled in a little, then we went together to the panel "Return of 20 Panels an Hour" with some longtime friends of C.'s, including [info]mabfan. I can't remember if I saw [info]gnomi there or only later, but it was at some point soon. :) Afterwards, C. and I went off and got all dressed up (sekrit message to Sonia: yes, I wore the dress, and it looked fabulous :D) and went to First Night, which was something they tried here for the first time: they set up booths and activities to get people mingling and excited about the con. It was fun; everyone was just in a happy mood, and we saw some bellydancers in gorgeous outfits. After wandering about a bit there and admiring some of the old costumes on display in the concourse, we went on to the Ankh-Morpork (or as I persist in calling it despite knowing better, Ankh-Pomork) ball, which was pretty much empty, but the people who were there were lovely -- one guy taught us all the one-step, and there was some swing also. But we conked out early, being wimps. *g*

Friday morning we met [info]the_shoshanna and her husband (brief digression: I kept having the impression that I had met Mr. Shoshanna before, just from having seen photos of him, and Shoshanna had to remind me twice that no, I hadn't actually met him before. :>) as well as one of C.s' friends for breakfast at the ungodly hour of 9; after that, we hit the dealer's room, where I unfortunately saw Michael Whelan's table; unfortunately, because he had an artist's proof of his piece Avatar for sale. I'd never seen the piece before, and it made me want to write something inspired by it, so I spent a large portion of the rest of the con dithering over it, until I finally exercised some self-restraint and got the very nice coffee table book instead, with the same picture on the cover and inside even if in smaller format. Also, we did not buy his $30,000 original painting from the art show.

After this, I apparently had a fit brought on by being at a con without work to do, and proceeded to spend the next few hours tracking down various different program people trying to get a slot to show vids in. I basically just wanted a little Special Interest Group room with a TV, as I even had my DVD player along, but somehow along the way it turned into using one of the big program rooms. (Not that I argued when I realized that's what they were trying to put together. ::g::) The program people were clearly overwhelmed by the amount of organizational work to do, and considering the scale of this thing, I wouldn't at all have been indignant or surprised for them to just say no, but instead they went above-and-beyond to get it to happen, especially Mark Gordon and Chuck Shimata. Really just fabulous people.

I then headed over for most of the panel "The Future of Short Fiction," with the editors of the major sci-fi and fantasy magazines. The news isn't good -- circulation numbers are falling, there aren't newsstand sales, the magazines are dying slowly. (This isn't actually news; they've been dying slowly for the last twenty years. People just don't buy short story collections anymore; they want novels.) On the other hand, Strange Horizons, the pro online magazine, is flourishing, and fanfic is certainly exploding; neither of those really got discussed, though.

Digression for a bit of a rant. I came to Worldcon expecting to like the panels best, and ended up enjoying them the least, or rather feeling some dissatisfaction with them. Partly, I think I chose the wrong panels to go to, and partly, it was a question of expectations. I was "trained" fannishly on the Escapade-style panel, which is a roundtable format where the panelists are mainly moderators for the entire room. The Worldcon format is the traditional panel style, with a small group of experts at the head of the room, at a table on a stage with microphones, discussing amongst themselves, with occasional questions from the audience. Now, I found that panel format very useful at USENIX (big professional computer science convention), and the reason it worked for me there (and in a couple panels at Worldcon, most notably the cybercrime panel) was that the people on the panels were actual experts -- they had real knowledge that I didn't have, as opposed to simply opinions based on their personal experience. (Well, and even then, that kind of panel can be interesting, but only if all the panelists are clever and amusing and play off each other well, which is hard to arrange.)

At any rate, I was choosing panel topics mostly based on "hey, this would be interesting to discuss," which is the way I'd pick among Escapade panels, rather than by "hey, that's someone I want to hear talk for an hour," or "hey, I don't know anything about that and would like to learn," which in retrospect I think would be a much better approach for picking Worldcon panels to attend. The format actively discourages audience participation and it very clearly privileges the panelists' opinions above that of audience members; that kind of hierarchy was frustrating to encounter in panels when my reason for going was already knowing something about the subject and wanting to move on from there and possibly contribute to the discussion.

Also, I was not exactly feeling the love for fanfic from the general community, and that honestly did bother me. I know I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but I really don't get the mentality that insists on drawing lines between original fiction and fanfic that clearly don't exist except by virtue of snobbishness and saleability (which, as is evidenced by the problems with selling short original fiction these days, is not even really true anymore), and by the end of the weekend I was having vivid juvenile fantasies (you know, the kind where you imagine an entire conversation in your head, all opposition being swept away by your brilliant arguments and snappy comebacks ::g::) of getting on a panel in future and talking up fanfic as a flourishing art form in its own right and an ideal training ground for writing original fiction to boot. I did not get carried away so far as to actually climb up on a soapbox and start declaiming, however. ;)

Anyway, my little rant over -- back to the actual report.

After the panel, we went to lunch with another friend of C.'s, which was a little rushed because we had to get back for C's second panel, "Cyber-Crime: Present and Future." We ate at the food court in the Prudential Center mall (attached to the convention center), and on our way back I spotted a Barnes & Noble sign. So I sent C. on ahead to his panel and scurried off to grab Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norris, because the hype totally got to me.

Another aside (this is starting to convey some of the flavor of the con, what with the going in several directions at once), mostly of interest to [info]cereta and [info]elynross -- none of the dealers at Worldcon had Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norris, bizarrely, since it was out in all the B&N stores; however, the small press publisher Donald Grant was there with the hot-off-the-presses Dark Tower VII. They have the books in their hands, they'll be shipping the limited artist's edition starting tomorrow, and then bookstores will have the general hardcover edition on Sept. 21. They were taking orders but not actually selling the book, or else I would have gotten it and taunted you both by reading bits of the ending out in channel. (I kid! I kid! Don't hurt me!)

Then on to the panel -- [info]the_shoshanna was there, which was cool, and it was a terrific panel -- in addition to C., who had many entertaining stories to tell from Juno days, we had Harlan Ellison's lawyer (who has also worked with unnameable govt organizations on cybercrime issues), and Harold Feld, a lawyer/activist who's working on preventing the erosion of civil liberties online. They all had really interesting stories and a lot of expert knowledge, as well as strong opinions. It was a great panel, and there was particularly an interesting discussion of whether there are any really new crimes online, or whether it's all been done before. (Interesting bit of info: the Nigerian scam is actually just a facelift of a scam called "The Spanish Prisoner," and which has been around since 1577.)

C. also had another panel at 4pm, so we briefly went back to the dealer's room (we think -- we're having a hard time piecing together our schedule *g*), then back to panels for one on "Rumors at the Speed of Light," which could definitely have benefited from being more of a roundtable -- it was small and several of the panelists didn't really have any expertise in the area. Afterwards, we went back to our room for some downtime and ordered room service. We had planned on going to the sock hop/swing dance, but C. was really wiped out and I wasn't much better, so I sent him to bed and went to the 10pm slash panel instead, after finalizing the plans for the vidshow with event staff and, um, the first 100 pages or so of Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell (henceforth JS&MN, and yes, it will appear again).

The one and only slash panel was unfortunately another disappointment as a panel, although I was happy to see [info]theodosia here, as I hadn't actually gotten a chance to talk to her at Vividcon, and I had the pleasure of meeting [info]veejane as well as another person who may or may not be [info]bookjunkie -- if you spot this, bookjunkie, please let me know if I've got your lj name wrong! I also met a lovely fan from the UK, whose name I have already in my typical sieve-brain style forgotten, so if you're reading this, please remind me? ::hangs head:: I also spoke to a handful of other people there, but exactly who and about what is all just gone.

I was really too tired and should probably just have gone to bed, which was probably part of why I didn't enjoy the panel. The panel ended up almost entirely focused on anime because that's what the panelists were all into. There was some discussion of how Eroica was the first manga that crossed over to slash fandom which I was able to follow because I know Eroica, but aside from that the panelists touched on a lot of anime/manga very quickly (have forgotten the ones mentioned), mostly just squeeing about "the pretty boys," which isn't really what rings my bell when it comes to slash, so, not very satisfying. Anyway, I stole the mike for a second at the end to tell people about the impromptu vidshow (which was going to happen Saturday), and then I staggered back to the room and to bed.

Saturday started with an early lunch with the local fen, many of whom were coming in for the day and others who were just coming to hang. C. and I bumped randomly into [info]flummery in the concourse on our way to get our mysteriously nonfunctional hotel keys replaced, so we said quick hellos and let them hit the dealers room while we finished our errand; then we headed over to Vinny T's for lunch. As we were on the way to the 11am appointment, I got a call from [info]giglet who let me know I had missed her email saying that the restaurant didn't open until 11:30. No harm done; there was a Walgreens nearby with cold Cherry Coke that provided badly-needed caffeine, and then the nice waitstaff let us come into the air-conditioned restaurant and hang out at the bar while they finished setting up. [info]giglet, [info]teenygozer, and [info]the_shoshanna joined us shortly, and in impatience to get back to the con, we sat down and ordered food, and happily [info]bayleaf and [info]briar_pipe got there soon enough to catch up with us. [info]briar_pipe generously forgave me for being an idiot and brightly going "Hi! Nice to meet you! What's your lj name?" when I'd met her less than a year ago when [info]cesperanza and I were in town. *facepalms*

After lunch, which was excellent, we all split up with plans to see one another again at the vidshow; C. and I hurried to the Del Rey panel to catch not my editor but another editor I'd met, just to say hi in passing; we then peeked in at the SFWA auction and left after seeing there was nothing there we couldn't live without, as I am not to be trusted in auctions (case in point, the sword from the HL convention that is still sitting on our sideboard). I *think* this is when we went to see the artshow, which was enormous and full of beautiful although very expensive pieces. I saw a particularly lovely piece by someone named Arthur Campbell, a knight in full armor and closed helm, lying dead in the snow; it reminded me of [info]feochadn's vid "Ebben? Ne andro lontana." I'm still thinking of it wistfully, but it was $2500. Alas. There were also some funny squishy knitted things that just looked cute. Yes, I know that's incoherent; sorry, what brain I have left is going.

C. had another panel at 3pm, "The SF/F Detective," which was fun, and brilliantly moderated ;D, talking about the intersection of detective and mystery fiction with science fiction and fantasy. After that, we went back to the room for a little bit (I worked through some more of JS&MN) and then went down to hang out at the room slated for the vidshow.

So the way the programming folks eventually slotted in the vidshow was a little complicated. Initially, something called "Boston fan films" was slotted from 4-6 pm, but had never shown up. They did appear in the end, but the film staff said they were only an hour and a half long, and then the item following (Trekkies) was also an hour and a half in a two hour slot. So I was allowed to squeeze between, from 5:30 - 6:30.

Except, of course, that the fan films kept going and going and going. It was a videotape of a staged performance which I think called for some good drugs before watching, and there were a total of three people in the audience for it, with a growing crowd outside. After some dithering, I finally went in and asked if anyone minded ending it early so we could actually have the show, and fortunately no one objected (at least not loudly enough to stop me *g*) and after some tech issues solved by switching to the backup dvd player, all went smoothly. I'd grabbed a handful of vid DVDs before running out of the house, hoping to show them to some of the local fans who hadn't been able to make it to Vividcon, and out of it and some DVDs borrowed from [info]flummery, I tried to put together a hasty playlist of vids from genre shows.

The much-shuffled playlist I'd intended to use with vague rationales was:

  1. Superstar
    Buffy, and a great character study as well as a high-energy vid. Also, a touch of femslash.
  2. Solsbury Hill
    Stargate, and I was hoping that the Daniel story was known well enough for the narrative to be accessible; also, a non-slash SG vid. I wanted to keep the show predominantly gen, and I didn't have a non-slash Smallville vid to show.
  3. Tainted Donuts
    Not a good choice, in retrospect -- I picked it because they were showing marathons of Cowboy Bebop through the whole con and I hoped that people might know the source, plus it's a wild constructed reality, but it's a tough vid for non-vidfans to get.
  4. Haunted
    I wanted this and Darkness Darkness as examples of recruiter vids for lesser-known fandoms; it did get at least one 'what fandom was that?' question after, so I think it worked to some extent, although it may have been another vid that kind of exceeded the general audience's grasp.
  5. Razzle Dazzle
    No explanation necessary -- totally accessible, hysterical, familiar fandom. I had planned to start with this but moved it to the halfway mark because I knew some Trekkies people were going to be showing up mid-show, expecting Trekkies to start, and I wanted to appease them *g*
  6. My Beautiful Reward
    Lovely vid; Firefly marathons were going on also, so I figured the source would be accessible also.
  7. Darkness, Darkness
    Ditto above for recruiter vid; also, the visual symbols of horror that I think are familiar to everyone
  8. Whatever
    As I said in the show, a deeply serious look at Angel. *g*
  9. The Mountain
    I doubt there was anyone at the con who hadn't seen LOTR. *g*
  10. Wipeout
    Stargate and Farscape in one, lots of fun, bouncy vid.
  11. (And I had to stop there, sadly, because we were out of time, though I also wanted to show these others.)
  12. Itsy Bitsy Spider
    Stargate and dark humor plus creep.
  13. Le Freak
    Smallville, bouncy.
  14. Olivia
  15. Lovely & lyrical vid for The Last Unicorn, which I figured would be familiar to much of the audience, plus a -- for lack of a better word, comfortable vid, one that's not challenging on the eyes or ears.
  16. All Souls' Night
    Not really genre, but teh pretty.


It was fun to do, and I think people enjoyed it, even if some of them were a little baffled *g*, but really, my main emotion afterwards was GREEN PULSING FIREY ENVY ENVY ENVY ENVY ENVY.

Ahem.

*Twenty foot screen*, I kid you not, and the vids looked gorgeous. The sound was pretty sucky, but we could fix that. I love how small Vividcon is, and the Springhill Suites is terrific, but oh, I want that screen, wah.

After the vidshow, C. and I went to pre-Hugo Awards dinner with [info]flummery and [info]teenygozer and her friend Jon. We ate at the food court to save time, and afterwards we waited while Thing 2 went and got bottled water -- and then she came back with the bottled water, but also with an *ice cream cone*, so obviously then we had to get ice cream of our own. :P We ended up splitting up for the actual awards because C. and I wanted to sit in the balcony.

The Hugo awards were surprisingly entertaining. Neil Gaiman was master of ceremonies, and startled me by sounding a great deal like Peter Wingfield, and also somewhat resembling him, at least in profile. Robert Silverberg gave an adorable speech about the history of the Hugo awards; he's been to every single one. The anecdotes he shared generally confirmed me in my opinion of awards ceremonies (that they're a damn good reason for having a Tivo), but the event itself was not at all interminable, as I had feared it might be. Helped that several of the winners gave ten-words-or-less acceptance speeches, especially the enthusiastic Frank Wu, who ran up, seized his Hugo, leaned over and said, "I. Love. You. All." and dashed away again. ::g::

Our pal [info]mabfan sadly didn't win for his short story; unfortunately, he was up against Neil Gaiman's A Study in Emerald, a Sherlock Holmes/Lovecraft crossover. ::sends vibes for next time::

Afterwards, we went and hung out in the SFWA suite for a while, where I met a few NYC-area folks who are working on pro writing, and then spent some time outside chatting quietly with our friends Ian and Kit before crashing for the night.


Sunday morning is a blur. I do remember we stopped by the tables in the concourse for the upcoming Worldcons (2005 will be in Glasgow, Scotland; 2006 in LA, 2007 in Japan), and then C. went to go have lunch with his brother. I flaked out entirely, took JS&MN, and sat in the sunny Prudential courtyard and read and read and read. I did see C's brother and family just for a moment to say hello, then C. and I went back to the con. We hit the art show *just* before it closed, and once again did not buy the $30K Michael Whelan painting, even though it would look really cool in our living room.

Having been kicked out, we went to the "Creating Gods" panel (on how to deal effectively with deities in sf/f, either as forces or characters), with Lois McMaster Bujold, George R. R. Martin, Tamora Pierce, Jo Walton, and others. There were some interesting ideas tossed out, and also fun with the lights being swapped on and off multiple times by people leaning against the light switch, but I once again left with the feeling that I would much rather have been sitting around with a half-dozen of you all discussing the topic.

Afterwards, C. went to Harry Harrison's autographing line to catch him for a few words, and I went to Charlaine Harris's small panel called "What Do Fans Want?", where she basically was asking us what we'd like to see in her Sookie Stackhouse series (Dead Until Dark, et al). She's a lovely person and reminded me very much of [info]sockkpuppett; somehow she gave the same impression of both being gracious and not taking shit from anyone. ::grins::

After that, C. was pretty toasted, and so was I; we decided to call it a day as far as panels went, had an early dinner, then went back to the room for naps. And, er, also I finished JS&MN. The book really deserves a post of its own, but for now I'll just say I highly recommend it.

After resting a while, we headed downstairs for the Masquerade. I'd never been to a Masquerade before, and though afterwards some other folks said it wasn't as good as in previous years, for my part it was a lot of fun. The junior division had some really adorable entries, and Best in Class was taken by a terrific edition of The Death of Rats. (Terry Pratchett was the Guest of Honor of the con, and unsurprisingly, many of the costumes were Discworld-based.) There was also a very cute "Grim Sweeper", bringing death to all dustbunnies. :-)

The adult division had 35 entries, and I won't even attempt to describe them all. We had a Pale Rider, preceded by Rincewind and a great motorized version of The Luggage. Probably the most original one was the cast of a fake time-travel series complete with time machine, all in period costume: H.G. Wells, Louisa May Alcott, Annie Oakley, Mary Shelley, and Samuel Clemens. But the last one was my favorite, another Discworld-based one:

As it opens, Vetinari is talking with a wizard and one of his guards about some disturbance in Ankh-Morpork; the wizard muttering how terrible it was, chaos in the streets, women everywhere. The guard explains they hired Cohen the Barbarian and his daughter to capture the creature causing the disturbance. The barbarians come in with a creature swathed in canvas. Cohen says Vetinari should let them kill the creature now, but Vetinari insists on having the creature revealed.

The canvas is whipped off to reveal... TOM JONES! Aaagh! He proceeds to start singing "It's Not Unusual," while panties start flying out of the audience; a witch appears on stage and throws hers; Cohen's daughter loses it and goes for him also; even the master of ceremonies throws a pair. A frenzy of stabbing and slaughter ensues, as the various characters kill each other off, and at the end, the only one left standing is Cohen, who proceeds to grab Tom Jones and plant one on him. ;-)

I can't find the program info or awards info online; we left before the awards were handed out, as we were even-more-completely wiped out and still had to pack. But hopefully they'll be posted soon at noreascon.org.

And that was it! This morning we packed up, had a quick breakfast, and caught Amtrak back to NYC. Overall, the con was both wonderful and overwhelming. I feel as though I'd like to have it all to do over again, knowing what I know now -- it's the kind of con that takes conscious managing and planning, at least for me to enjoy the most, but it really does have something for everyone. I'm seriously considering going to Glasgow for the next one.

Now, however, it's time for me to get back to work; I haven't really gotten anything done writing-wise since before Vividcon, and I need to get the nose to the grindstone. The progress reports will be starting up again tomorrow. (There, I've committed myself, ha!) I'm hoping to have it done by November -- I'd like to try and do either my sci-fi concept or a crime novel for Nanowrimo, but I can't if Book 2 isn't done.


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[info]fuschia
2004-09-06 10:34 pm UTC (link)
Hello!

I, too, was very disappointed in the slash panel; I had no idea that it was going to be so anime/manga-centric, and I wish there had been less discussion about varities of manga, and more about some of the interesting topics/hot button issues that were raised by the audience. Maybe I'm spoiled by the high quality of meta discussion both on LJ and at [info]connexions!

Best,

Fuschia

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[info]astolat
2004-09-07 09:33 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I'm with you there. There's a lot of interesting general stuff to talk about; I'd really rather have had the pimping separately.

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[info]elynross
2004-09-06 10:49 pm UTC (link)
They were taking orders but not actually selling the book, or else I would have gotten it and taunted you both by reading bits of the ending out in channel. (I kid! I kid! Don't hurt me!)

Evil, evil woman!!! Besides, I'd have just held you down while [info]cereta hurt you. *g* She pointed out that it was coming out so soon the other day, and I swear, I thought we had two books left. I'm just not ready!!! Also, I envy you the Jonathan Strange. I've put in a request at the library that they order it, but it'll be a while until I get to read it.

And Worldcon just sounds exhausting, only reading about it. No wonder you're wiped out! {{{}}}

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[info]cereta
2004-09-07 07:49 am UTC (link)
Oh, there would have been hurting. A great, great deal of hurting.

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[info]astolat
2004-09-07 09:40 am UTC (link)
Meep! ;)

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[info]astolat
2004-09-07 09:40 am UTC (link)
Heeeeee! I haven't read the series at all since I've been waiting for him to finish; now perhaps I will buy them all and devour. :D

And I think you will really enjoy JS&MN -- it's a lovely book.

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[info]destina
2004-09-06 10:51 pm UTC (link)
You know, I read your report with utter fascination, because I really wanted to go this year and was too terrified. I dunno, there's the introversion thing, and then there's the feeling of total unworthiness. Ha! *g* Maybe I'll go in 06, when it's in my neighborhood. The whole idea of panels where only the panelists talk is so alien to me, there just are no words.

Also, I was reading happily along when I had a total *squee* moment, and it was here: All Souls' Night
Not really genre, but teh pretty.


Really? *squeals quietly* Wow, that was...wow. Some very esteemed company for the vid to be in. Eee! *g*

After this, I apparently had a fit brought on by being at a con without work to do

That is so very you. :)

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[info]astolat
2004-09-07 09:38 am UTC (link)
Well, I'll definitely be going in '06, so you must come! ::grins:: It really was a lot of fun, and sounds like the panel style wasn't something that's universal to Worldcons at all, just happened to be that way here. And really, *knowing* that's what the panels were going to be like, I can deal with them and choose based on that knowledge; it was going in with other expectations that made it feel odd.

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[info]destina
2004-09-07 09:42 am UTC (link)
*clears throat* I bought a membership last night. Eeeeep. *g*

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LA in '06?
[info]eotu
2004-09-08 04:17 pm UTC (link)
I was at this year's single slash panel, and agree totally with you that it was way way too anime-centric. (Hi, shalott, it's me, the woman who you didn't get to meet :-). If anyone wants to put together a panel on slash of the right sort for the 06 worldcon, I can probably get it onto the program. No promises, but I've been a low-level functionary/volunteer at worldcons for many a year, and know enough of the right people to get this sort of thing done, especially this far in advance. I missed the vid program (*sigh*) and would be thrilled to see something like that in LA.

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about magazines with short stories
[info]slashbluegreen
2004-09-07 02:15 am UTC (link)
I *knew* I was right in doing a magazine with novels instead of short stories. Short stories are to me like those tiny canapeés, nice to look at but not really that satifiying. One or two, I can bear but not a magazine full of them. I'm a superfast reader with a mediocre memory so I just know that they all turn to mixed-up mush inside my head eventually ;-). Only with a long novel I can let myself go and relax fully into a fictional world.


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Re: about magazines with short stories
[info]astolat
2004-09-07 09:27 am UTC (link)
Oh, see, I love short stories, and I know there are a lot of readers out there who feel the same way; just looking at patterns of fanfic-reading shows that. I honestly think that the issues facing the fiction magazines are economic rather than having to do with any inherent problem with the short form.

I mean, when someone buys a novel, they've typically read enough of the beginning or the dust jacket or the author's other work to know that they're likely to enjoy that whole novel and those characters, and that's worth the $7 that a paperback costs these days. Pick up a small magazine (which also doesn't feel as nice) with an assortment of stories mostly by authors you don't know, many of which you don't necessarily want to read, with unfamiliar characters and settings in each story, and to a lot of readers, it's not worth $7.

And I'm procrastinating on my writing here, so I will stop, but if I am good and get my 2k words done, maybe I can post more on this topic, because I think it's so worth discussing more. *g*

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Sometimes size does matter
[info]giglet
2004-09-07 08:22 am UTC (link)
Glad you had a good time!

The vid show was very very impressive -- both the vids you chose and the screen, yes. It got me excited about vids in a way that seeing them on a tv or on a monitor never had.

Your choice of vids might also have had something to do with that. Thanks!

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Re: Sometimes size does matter
[info]astolat
2004-09-07 08:31 am UTC (link)
Size totally does matter. *covets more* Glad you liked the show! It was great to get together. :)

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[info]kellyfaboo
2004-09-07 08:38 am UTC (link)
Actually, this Worldcon was much different in its panel makeup than Chicon was in 2000 (and yes, I'm supported the 2008 bid), and the Slash panel was a complete waste of my time.

Chicon did a mix of the two types of panels quite well because the panelists were better chosen for either technique. There were alot of people coming from academic or speaking backgrounds at Boston.

There is a complete tension between media fans and lit fans at these things and Chicon did alot of really respectible programing about that and for those two divergent audiences.

In classic East Coast style, media fans (and our social culture) were second class citizens almost.

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[info]astolat
2004-09-07 09:43 am UTC (link)
You know, I'm really glad to hear this, and this:

In classic East Coast style, media fans (and our social culture) were second class citizens almost.

because that means it wasn't just me having that feeling. I mean, I don't think of myself as only or even primarily a media fan; I think of myself as a genre writing fan. But clearly I was somewhat out of sync with the style of the con.

Chicon '08 sounds good to me. Is there a website for the bid up yet?

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[info]kellyfaboo
2004-09-07 05:49 pm UTC (link)
www.chicagoworldcon7.org It's running against Denver, apparently the Geneva Convention was a hoax, but I like the Chicago Con Com a lot and I know I'm not the only one.

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[info]elysdir
2004-09-07 12:00 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for plugging Strange Horizons!

A couple of thoughts about your other comments:

Re panels in general: the WorldCon panel approach is pretty common in larger cons, but it also varies a fair bit from panel to panel. I think the most common approach is to have the panelists discuss things for the first half to two-thirds of the time and then take audience questions and comments, but I've also attended panels (even at WorldCons) where the audience participated from the start.

I do find that one of the best approaches to choosing panels is to focus on entertaining and interesting speakers rather than primarily on panel topics. Even a good topic won't save a panel if the panelists are boring or annoying; whereas entertaining panelists can sometimes save a relatively uninteresting topic.

Re fanfic: Alas, fanfic is getting (if anything) even less respect these days (perhaps because it's higher profile than it used to be?) from certain areas of the sf community (see the Internet Review of SF article from a couple months ago if you feel that your blood pressure is too low). It wouldn't be at all unreasonable for you to propose a fanfic panel at a future convention -- just talk to the programming people when they're putting the program together, and suggest the panel topic and ask if you can be on it. (But if you do that, be prepared for the possibility of a hostile audience -- or even hostile fellow panelists -- and be prepared to discuss the legal issues in an informed way.)

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[info]astolat
2004-09-07 03:04 pm UTC (link)
Hi, elysdir; if you were the guy who brought up Strange Horizons at the short fiction panel, then I believe we met in the elevator on Sunday, shortly before the start of the tea party. Nice to see you online, and congrats on the magazine and the party, which was a huge success judging by the packed-like-sardines experience. ::g::

I think you're right about choosing panels by the speaker for the most part; on the other hand, the really nice thing about the roundtable format where anyone in the audience can participate is that a good topic will typically draw the right "speakers" to it.

Apparently the Internet feels that my blood pressure is high enough, because the IROSF site seems to be down, so I can't get to the article. I don't suppose you have an alternative URL for it? I'm curious now, although probably I shouldn't be; I'm sure I could probably write something close to a word-for-word version of the article.

As it happens, I actually did write to the Noreascon programming folks beforehand and volunteer as a fanfic/slash/original fic writer, as well as suggesting a variety of panels, some having to do with fanfic. So in this case, it was a deliberate choice on their part to neglect the topics, not that they didn't have any suggestions or volunteers to do it with. Which is disappointing, and contributed to the second-class-citizen feeling that [info]kellyfaboo describes above.

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[info]oracne
2004-09-08 08:07 am UTC (link)
Exactly, about the legal issues--most people are shockingly ill-informed on the actual law but feel free to spread their opinions anyway. If you did a panel on copyright law, it might be worth it to have a handout with actual quotations about copyright law and such.

That discussion ate a chunk of the 2001 Worldcon fanfic panel, and didn't reach any useful conclusions.

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on the legal issues
[info]astolat
2004-09-08 09:47 am UTC (link)
most people are shockingly ill-informed on the actual law but feel free to spread their opinions anyway

Yes, very true; and part of the problem is that quotations aren't enough, because it's not enough to read a law without knowing the context of other laws, and how the courts have been interpreting it. IMO a legal issues panel is just an opportunity to spread misinformation and waste time unless it's made up of actual copyright lawyers.

FYI, Rebecca Tushnet's legal note on fanfic presents an argument for treating fanfic as fair use, but until someone wants to spend a pile of money playing test case, that argument hasn't been tested in the courts. I know that at least one copyright holder who sent a C&D letter to a fanfic archive has backed down after the archive sent a response that made it clear there was legal representation on the other side, but that also doesn't say anything about how the courts would rule, just means they didn't want to be a test case either.

(The legal note is "Copyright, Fan Fiction, and a New Common Law," and is available online at http://www.tushnet.com/law/fanficarticle.html)

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Re: on the legal issues
[info]oracne
2004-09-08 11:05 am UTC (link)
Maybe for such a panel it would be worthwhile to assemble a list of useful articles like that? Some kind of handout might work.

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Re: on the legal issues
[info]cofax7
2004-09-08 12:18 pm UTC (link)
I've been watching, and so far I have yet to see or find a better legal article on the subject. As you say, until someone with the cash to defend against a C&D actually takes it to court, we're moving without guidance.

Thank you for your con notes, btw, and I'm happy you got to meet [info]veejane, who has one of the shiniest brains I know. *g*

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Re: on the legal issues
[info]astolat
2004-09-09 01:21 pm UTC (link)
I'm with you on not having seen anything close to Rebecca's article, yeah. And yes, it was lovely to meet [info]veejane. :-)

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on the slash panel
[info]oracne
2004-09-08 08:05 am UTC (link)
The description of the slash panel did explicitly mention that it was to have anime/manga content, and a number of people seemed to have come to the panel to get information about that, since it's a newer thing in slash fandom. Also, the person who suggested the panel was into anime/manga, and she who suggests gets to focus the content.

Having only one panel for slash means it can't be too specific, since fans of many different shows are in the audience, which is why it focused on more general historical/sociological issues when it discussed tv stuff. I think it ended up having more manga because there were two anime/managa fans as opposed to one tv fan.

At the 2001 Worldcon, there was a single fanfic panel and no slash panel at all, incidentally--this doesn't surprise me, because Worldcon began as a book con and continues to mostly focus on books. Sure, a lot of book fans are also slash fans, but books are the focus; that's just the sort of con it is. Would you expect a lot of book panels at Escapade? It may be a "second-class citizen" thing, but it also just has to do with sheer numbers--there're usually about 5000 people at a Worldcon, and only a few hundred are slash fans, if that. The program committee try to include something for everyone, I would think.

Also, content has to do with who's on the program committee, and the ideas submitted to them, and how many slots they have, and who if anyone volunteers to be on the panels, etc.--for example, at TorCon there was a lot of GLBT programming, a whole track, and practically nothing at this Worldcon, because TorCon had someone on their program committee who created that track. Make sense?

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Re: on the slash panel
[info]astolat
2004-09-08 11:28 am UTC (link)
Would you expect a lot of book panels at Escapade?

There often are book and writing related panels at Escapade, actually, though they do focus on slashy works -- but then, Escapade is a very small and focused convention, so I'm not sure it's really a good comparison. I wouldn't expect any non-slash-related panels at Escapade at all. And conversely, I wouldn't expect *all* the panels at Worldcon to be related to fanfic or slash. But honestly yes, I did expect at least a handful of sf/f fanfic panels at a con dedicated broadly to sf/f fandom, and I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. Fanfic's a big part of fannish activity, at least as big as say, costuming.

I think at heart here is the approach to programming. Escapade's programming is determined very differently; the panel topics are suggested and then voted on in a ballot by the entire membership. We do the same thing for VividCon, which is even smaller, except we use the voting as a guideline rather than just using it unaltered; we try to balance the number of tech/craft/discussion panels, and choose vidshows that fit well together and with the panels. In both cases, the programming is very much audience-driven.

Now, voting seems totally impractical when we're talking about something on the Worldcon scale. But when you can't actually just ask the audience what they want, then IMO the responsibility on the programming staff is *greater* to make an effort to balance the tracks as much as possible, and indeed to try and have something for everyone. What you're describing about the GLBT programming at Torcon vs. Noreascon, well, honestly, that *doesn't* make sense to me. In fact, it sounds to me like a failure of the programming staff on one side or the other or both.

What I mean is, if there's a big interest in GLBT programming in the Worldcon audience, then it seems to me that the staff should have made an effort to have significant GLBT programming at Noreascon. If there isn't enough interest to justify a significant amount of GLBT programming at every Worldcon, then the staff shouldn't have dedicated an entire track to it at Torcon.

It just seems to me that the preferences of what has to be a fairly small committee should not be the ruling factor that determines the composition of the programming for 6000 people. Not that their preferences shouldn't have any influence, but the gulf you're describing between tons of programming on one side and zero on the other, that's too big a discrepancy between two cons.

But, as I said, this was my first Worldcon, and maybe the Worldcon approach has always been that the programming committee determines the slate based on their own preferences, and then that panelists do whatever they want with their panels. And since each con is run by a different group of people, you end up with a different con every time, slanted towards different preferences, and that's just how it goes.

And okay, that's a valid approach; looking at it from the perspective of a planner, it makes things a lot easier, since presumably you know a lot of people who share your interests and can more easily recruit participants, and then you can hand the panels off to the panelists once you're done and not worry about the content anymore, and let them interpret the descriptions as they like without trying to update them in the program book.

Personally, I don't really like that approach -- I feel it ultimately means inconsistent programming and frustration for the audience. It was certainly frustrating to experience for me. But hey, I'm not lining up to chair a Worldcon anytime soon. *g*

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Re: on the slash panel
[info]oracne
2004-09-08 12:09 pm UTC (link)
I have to say I've never been on a programming committee, so anything I say may or may not be true, but you're right about it varying from year to year and committee to committee. It's a HUGE amount of work, and I'm glad someone does it--I definitely wouldn't be brave enough to give that much unpaid time to a convention despite loving to attend.

Another track thing--I remember at the Philly Worldcon, there was a whole track on sf/f in education, aimed at teachers--I haven't seen a track like that since then.

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Re: on the slash panel
[info]eotu
2004-09-08 08:41 pm UTC (link)
OK, I have been in charge of programming for a decent-sized regional con (1500 members), and how it works is you send out a list of possible panels to your program participants and those that get 3 or 4 responses are the ones that happen. If someone comes to you with a complete panel -- participants, topic, description -- you say "thank you very much." and give them a room. They have done your work for you, and if you are not short of space, there is no reason to turn them away. There are always blank lines for suggestions from the studio audience on the panel list.

I'm betting there was a "fan" section on the programming questionnaire for Noreascon. Whether there were slash or fanfic topics in the list, I can't say. So, it's very likely that the moderator for the slash panel in Boston roped in the other two ladies, or that they all put "what about slash?" on one of those blank lines and ended up thrown into the blender that is a panel.

At Con Jose, there was a pretty good, crowded, and all too generic slash panel. There were also more "erotica" panels than at Noreascon.

In a previous message I said I could help get a slash panel on the LAcon IV program in '06. Unless there is someone on the program team who is rabidly antislash, I could probably help get a more than one on that program, in late night slots. These folks are volunteers, and when someone does their work for them, they're pretty happy to let it happen.

So yes, the original questionnaire generally reflects what the program team is interested, but most program teams also try and include things that they know others are interested in, so if they're "live and let live" folks, letting them know ahead of time that we want to have a hideyhole to discuss our favorite pairings in might actually get us one.

JM2CW, but I do know cons...

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Re: on the slash panel
[info]astolat
2004-09-09 01:20 pm UTC (link)
[info]eotu, I'm more than likely going to be there in '06 and would be happy to come up with some fanfic/slash panels. If you don't mind helping, I'll plan to grab you when it's a little closer to talk to you about getting them in. :)

The way it worked for Noreascon, at least, there wasn't a questionnaire, at least not that I or Charles got. On the website, they asked that people who were interested in being on programming send them a free-form email describing their interests and background ("cred"), optionally with suggestions for specific panels. They then sent out panel assignments.

Also, they said they were going to try and reimburse the program participants' membership, which I could imagine mixes in a financial incentive to reuse panelists where possible and keep the total number down, so it's not necessarily clear that they'd let people run an official panel even if they had participants, etc. all lined up.

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Re: on the slash panel
[info]astolat
2004-09-08 12:00 pm UTC (link)
(hit comment length limit, splitting up)

About the slash panel, specifically -- I really don't want to knock the panelists, because it really does seem to me that there was just a different mentality about the Worldcon panels, and I don't think they ran the panel inappropriately.

But honestly yes, it was disappointing and frustrating to me. The description (which to be fair to the panelists was presumably not their doing, as I know C. didn't have any say in the descriptions of his panels) did *mention* anime, but it didn't make it clear that the panel was going to be heavily focused on anime/manga, or that it was going to discuss specific ones.

Digging it up: "How about Snape and the Nazgul? The history and/or modern trends of slash fiction, with a special look at its role in anime/manga fandom (shonen ai and yaoi material). Are there socially redeeming aspects to all this?"

See, to me this suggested primarily a meta panel focusing on trends in slash fiction, including anime/manga, which has been exploding lately and seemed like a logical place for the discussion of trends to lead to. And discussion of trends in anime/manga fandom and how they relate to trends in slash fiction on a meta level would also be different and more accessible than discussing specific anime/manga, using Japanese jargon that much of the audience didn't know.

I'm totally with you that having one panel for slash meant it couldn't be too specific, and I would have been very happy if it *had* focused on general historical/sociological issues, for the anime/manga also; it's precisely that it became so specific that made the panel inaccessible and disappointing to me.

In context of the description, that is -- I'd have been perfectly happy with a yaoi panel that started off with solid definitions, told me what the good stuff is and where to find it, and then went into some brief descriptions of specific yaoi anime/manga. (In fact, I think that would be an excellent topic for a traditional-style panel, since the panelists would be acting as experts in that situation.)

It would have been much better to have a general slash meta panel and a separate yaoi pimping panel, and there was definitely a sufficient audience for both just looking at the crowd in the room. And... here I am, back to the general programming issue again.

Anyway -- really, it was just one panel, and you win some, you lose some; it's not as if every panel ever given at Vividcon or Escapade was genius, and it's certainly not like I've never moderated a disappointing panel. It really was the fact that it was the only slash/fanfic panel that put it under an unfair burden (in terms of my expectations).

And okay, that's at least ten times as much procrastination as I should have allowed myself today. Gah. Back to work.

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Re: on the slash panel
[info]oracne
2004-09-08 12:12 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I think there was no way to try and make everyone happy with a description that broad.

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Re: on the slash panel
[info]littlebutfierce
2004-09-09 07:02 am UTC (link)
And discussion of trends in anime/manga fandom and how they relate to trends in slash fiction on a meta level would also be different and more accessible than discussing specific anime/manga, using Japanese jargon that much of the audience didn't know.

i'm not sure, but i believe some of the same panelists were those who did the "girl power, anime style!" panel (which was partly why i didn't go to the slash panel). & they did the same thing--talk v. specifically about certain anime & manga, w/o explaining any terminology or anything, which was fine for me because i knew what they were talking about, but v. alienating to most of the audience. one woman actually got up to leave, & as she did, said she was an anime newbie & asked if there was any shoujo-style stuff on television right now, & the panel took about a second to tell her, "no. try netflix," & that was it. i was about to chase her out & give her a few titles, but stopped myself, & later wished i had done it.

also, the panel was v. much off topic & @ one point they even digressed into a discussion of comic book stores in nyc! *bangs head*

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[info]smofbabe
2004-09-09 12:48 pm UTC (link)
*Twenty foot screen*, I kid you not, and the vids looked gorgeous. The sound was pretty sucky, but we could fix that. I love how small Vividcon is, and the Springhill Suites is terrific, but oh, I want that screen, wah.

Well, I'm glad to hear the 20-foot screen was good for someone. In Program Ops, we were pretty dismayed that the screens we got from the vendor, which were supposed to be portable screens that we could move around, were 20 feet high, which meant they were (a) not exactly portable, and (b) not exactly practical for the rooms with 18-foot ceilings.

Glad it sounds like you had a good time.

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[info]astolat
2004-09-09 01:00 pm UTC (link)
Ouch! Sorry to hear they were actually unfortunate for you. They were lovely to watch things on, however. For Vividcon, we're in a hotel that has only 9-foot ceilings in the meeting space, unfortunately, and that limits us to 8-foot screens. The line-of-sight in the Worldcon rooms was just spectacular; I was operating the player all the way in the back and could see the entire screen unobstructed.

And I did have a very good time -- and congrats to you and the other Program Ops people for all the hard work. I'm so very impressed that you guys managed to get it all to work while still being flexible enough that you could work in a last-minute item like the impromptu vidshow.

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[info]del_c
2004-09-14 04:56 am UTC (link)
[original response lost - okay, let's try this again in Notepad]

The big screens let me lip-read, which made up for the abysmal sound quality. (the provision of sound amplification at N4 generally was disappointing, including such things as having typically three microphones per panel, even for six-person panels)

If it hadn't been for the big screens there would have been no point in a short deaf person like me attending items in the hall at all. As it is I liked them better than the single smaller screen at Torcon.

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[info]smofbabe
2004-09-14 02:19 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I was referring to the screens we were provided with for the program rooms, not the large hall.

As for microphones in the program rooms, I don't recall any more than three or at the most four microphones for panels at any worldcon in which I participated in program. It's rare indeed to have the same number of microphones as panelists once you get above four people.

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(Anonymous)
2004-09-16 01:38 pm UTC (link)
A few years back, after WorldCon in New Orleans, I started writing a spoof of SF conventions. You might like it. IT CAME FROM CITRUS HEIGHTS is available from Booklocker.com. --Don Baumgart

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