The Original Expatriated Zulu (kamuela) wrote in [info]abortiondebate,
@ 2004-09-25 12:03:00
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Dear Community:

There has been some confusion in both threads and emails lately about the nature of this community, its rule and its moderators. At the risk of being both pedantic and ranty in the same post, I'd like to offer some clarifications.



First, meet your moderators:

[info]drunkenatheist
[info]fallofrain
quantumbitch
kamuela

Now before anything else, I'd like you to remember the definition of "volunteer". If you need to look it up, I can wait.

Okay, got it? Moderating a livejournal community is not a job -- it is a voluntary service. The only rules governing our behavior are whatever ones livejournal itself wishes to impose upon us. Now the four of us are commited to do what we do as fairly as possible, but we all have substantial commitments to people and jobs that come first. That means that, surprise surprise, we are not going to be hovering over the community at all moments waiting to fix any problems in an instant. It also means that given the choice to pay attention to the needs of [info]abortiondebate and the needs of our families, friends and jobs, we are going to make the sane choice.

Some of you might notice that everyone on that list is prochoice. Okay, you got us. The moderating team is from one side of the debate. We also are not going to do anything about that in the near future. First off, there was an election to fill the fourth moderator spot and several prolifers voted for the current crop of moderators. Second, and more importantly, we are doing a good job with our duties. That's right: to any of the lurkers here who are still managing to hold two year old grudes -- we are doing a good job. We screen lead posts and have a rejection standard that rules out bad posts from both prochoicers and prolifers. Real and legitimate disputes are moderated appropriately. Trolls are banned. Rules are adjusted and posted to meet new needs.

Frankly, I have no doubts that a qualified prolife moderator would act in the same way as the current moderating team has, and I can think of no real purpose that would be solved by meeting the periodic requests for affirmative action in the moderating slate.

As for the frequent accusations that this community is biased: bull. This is an open membership community. We cannot help the fact that a majority of the membership is prochoice. We did not set it up that way. We did not solicit it to become that way.

Now while it is a fact that a prolifer may find her or himself outnumbered in a discussion and that that person may find such a situation unpleasant, there is nothing that we can fairly do about it. We cannot tell prochoicers to not defend or explain their views any more than we can go on some kind of recruiting drive to meet numberic "balance". We have on more than one occassion banned people from BOTH sides of the debate who are incapable of playing well with others. We have requested that people debate with respect. We have reminded people to do so.

But this is an emotional issue that runs deeply for people from both sides. So I don't doubt that it is unpleasant to get lots of replies to your ideas with a relatively smaller number of people who are agreeing with you.

But that isn't bias and there is nothing we can do about it. If prolifers who can defend their positions with logic, strength and respect decide to leave based on seeing being outnumbered as deliberate bias, we cannot help it.

Now a little bit about the rules. Some people seem to think there is bias or inappropriate moderator behavior if we do not micro-manage the community based upon the rules. That's not the way it works, and if you think about it, you know that.

We ask people to not use terms like "anti-choice" or "anti-life" but we are not going to swoop in and correct every misstep. We ask people to not use icons that deliberately call people stupid, but a) we don't see everything and b) we don't think icons that advocate a given side's position are insulting.

We do not allow testimonial posts on the main board, but we do not bar people from using personal experience in replies. We request no profanity on the main page, but certainly are not combing for the occassional swear throughout long threads.

We ask that people approach the debate with respect, but we will not enforce a narrow definition of respect.

Let's look at some hypotheticals:

To a prolifer, the issue at stake is one of killing a human being. To a prochoicer, the issue at stake is one of whether or not any being has the right to use another's body without consent. Both are deeply important perspectives and people have deep connections to the issue.

However, as moderators, we are not here to protect people from having their perspective challenged even if that makes people feel badly.

Hypothetical Prochoicer: Frankly, I don't see aborting a fetus as a big deal -- it's no different than making paprikash.

Hypothetical Prolifer: Frankly, I think abortion is murder and murder is always wrong. I don't care if you've been raped.

Both of these people are saying things that will offend people on the opposing side and the moderating team WILL NOT MODERATE them.

Compare to this:

Prolifer: I think abortion is murder. There is no ethical difference in my mind between a fetus and born person.

Jerk Prochoicers: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Abortion is no different than making paprikash! Mmmmm....paprikash. Give me your abortion bits so I can cook!

or

Prochoicer: I don't think aborting a fetus is a big, certainly not compared to taking away a woman's right to control her body.

Jerk Prolifers: MURDERER! You support murder and if you will not keep the baby you should keep your legs crossed!!!!

I really hope I do not have to explain the differences between the scenarios I have spun here. We moderate the second, not the first.

Now for my final pondering. I have noticed that there are certain kinds of people who do not do well here. They are, in no particular order:

1) People who have no idea how to play well with others. I am thinking of a formerly active prochoicer in this case.

2) People who only act nicely to others so they can try to change the other side's mind and get pissy when it doesn't work. I am thinking of a formerly active prolifer in this case.

3) People who do not know how to read and get overly dramatic and pissy when they misread what others have said. I am thinking of a formerly active prolifer in this case.

4) People who are utter and total pinheads. I am thinking of various people of both sides now.

5) People who only enjoy being within their own political circle jerk. I am thnking of various people of both sides now.

6) People who think moderators are supposed to impose an artificial sense of balance in every community and who over estimate the importance of internet communities.

7) Self-important windbags who cannot accept that they actually have to PROVE something before demanding that people from the other side DISPROVE it.

8) Pill-popping pinheads who hardly ever participate in the community in the first place and then create ranting communities dedicated to calling the members of this place jerks and idiots.

Now if none of those describe you, we look forward to your continued participation in [info]abortiondebate


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I'm confused now
[info]liwy
2004-09-25 10:53 am UTC (link)
What exactly is paprikash?

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Re: I'm confused now
[info]noabsolutes
2004-09-25 10:59 am UTC (link)
Hungarian dish. Utilizes paprika, but that's about all I know.

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Re: I'm confused now
[info]kikayume
2004-09-25 10:59 am UTC (link)
I dunno, but there's quite a fixation going on with it. I'll assume it's pretty tasty.

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[info]the_alchemist
2004-09-25 11:12 am UTC (link)
Hear, hear.

Though I'm afraid I'm going to be the politically correct arsehole who objects to 'pinhead' (which I think of as being an old, offensive freak show term for 'person with microcephaly') as a synonym for 'person who is both stupid and annoying'.

And more relevantly, I feel I should register my opinion that there ought to be a pro-life moderator. I agree that the four of you are doing an excellent job, and I've seen *no* sign of bias from any of you, but appearances count. Justice must be seen to be done and all that... I therefore regret voting as I did in the election, and feel awkward when you bring it up. (I'm not, of course, saying that you *shouldn't* bring it up - this (as I say) is just an expression of my opinion.)

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kamuela
2004-09-25 11:59 am UTC (link)
You can count that as my "I learned something today" moment -- I had no idea that was the derivation of "pinhead". Out of respect to your linguistic knowledge, I will leave my error in place with your correction.

I do understand the concern for appearances. I similarly appreciate that you recognize the effort to date has been reasonably fair.

The people who irritate me are the ones who seem to think that moderating decisions would have been different with the presence of a prolife moderator. I've peeked over at abortiontalk which has elections for moderators while enforcing a "balance" rule.

I was quite amused to notice a prochoice moderator being more aggressively attacking of a prolifer than any of the four of us would be here short of of rather extraordinary circumstances. I did, once, but it was under the circumstances outlined in number 2 of my list.

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[info]natewillsheets
2004-09-25 12:07 pm UTC (link)
I haven't been here for a while, but how where the moderators chosen in the first place?

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kamuela
2004-09-25 12:11 pm UTC (link)
[info]drunkenatheist originally chose people who she trusted to use reasonable judgement. That got a slate of three.

When traffic and moving to moderated submissions (to control trolls and dreck) became necessary, an election was held and I was elected the fourth moderator. There were well-respected prolifers in the election slate.

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[info]kali_kali
2004-09-25 06:21 pm UTC (link)
Though remember, there are more pro-choicers in the community, so an election as such would not be balanced between pro-life votes and pro-choice votes.

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kamuela
2004-09-25 06:30 pm UTC (link)
I ended up with votes from prolifers.

I can't help it if I'm popular.

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[info]the_alchemist
2004-09-25 04:15 pm UTC (link)
The people who irritate me are the ones who seem to think that moderating decisions would have been different with the presence of a prolife moderator.

Well, quite. One of the reasons why I want a prolife moderator is so that I wouldn't have to keep explaining in [info]prolife and elsewhere that whatever decision whoever is whinging about was unlikely to have been different had there been a prolife moderator on board.

Of course the cynical part of me just says that even if a prolife mod were appointed, the whinge would just change to either 'but there are four pro-choice ones...' or 'ah, but x isn't *really* prolife'. I still think it would make a difference though.

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[info]pinky_thebrain
2004-09-26 08:26 pm UTC (link)
hmm

but aren't the decisions made by moderators not usually public?

i mean, i've seen some people been banned, and some comments/posts been removed with explanations.. but what about the posts that don't even make it?

i do trust the current moderators, have no reason not to, but i don't see how i could form a judgment either way about if it would be different/the same with a pro-life mod as well.

i think representation is quite an important thing... it would be ludicrous today to say that a man, for example, could make decisions on behalf of a woman on the basis that she wouldn't have chosen any different.

it would be a lot of work to have the perfect proportion of pro-life/pro-choice mods to match with pro-life/pro-choice members of this community... but one pro-life mod would be better than none, in my opinion.

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not to get all Monty Python, but...
[info]techieguru
2004-09-25 12:25 pm UTC (link)
its

I did not edit beyond that, because I am going to take a nap.

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Re: not to get all Monty Python, but...
kamuela
2004-09-25 12:26 pm UTC (link)
I type too fast

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[info]tahquil
2004-09-26 03:38 am UTC (link)
I've just joined this community..

I've been rather vocal.

In my second comment ever I lost my temper and started insulting the other person (a pro lifer). I got pulled up quick smart though. Have attempted since then to debate respectfully since, though I've gotten shirty a couple of times. I've been tending to keep on responding to replies, but it's nothing personal, more that there's something there that doesn't seem logical, or I can provide statistics, or something. I've tried not be tooo longwinded...

Also I think I've messed up a couple of time in regards to terminology (anti choice, anti abortion rather than pro life) though. :/ Sorry to pro lifers.

I think the moderators are doing a pretty good job. You've certainly put the fear of god moderator into me. And I'm pro choice, so its not like they let me get away with calling that first prolifer I debated names. Dammit. :p

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[info]noabsolutes
2004-09-26 10:08 am UTC (link)
A good strategy is that if someone writes something that truly pisses you off, draft a reply and then go away. Just walk away from the computer.

Don't come back until you can read the comment (and your reply!) with an objective eye. If you really just can't post a reply that isn't filled with acid, don't. Let someone else take over, or even drop a note that signals your inability to respond rationally. Walking away is more impressive than unsheathing one's claws - we all know we're capable of the latter.

And if you DO lose control, apologizing is good. Props to you for already knowing that lesson. :)

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back after an absence
[info]tahquil
2004-10-10 09:13 am UTC (link)
Hey those are really good strategies. Thanks. :)

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[info]natewillsheets
2004-09-27 02:36 am UTC (link)
I would be willing to help moderate, but I doubt you guys would want me to.

For what it is worth, I think that the moderators here have been doing a pretty good job lately.

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