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Type 4s - The Individualist/The Romantic
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| Variants |
[Oct. 15th, 2008|09:45 pm] |
Everyone here is talking about their numbers and wings but no one has really mentioned their variant: Intimate, Social and Self Preservation. Has anyone explored these? |
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| 4ish songs |
[Dec. 4th, 2007|07:22 pm] |
| [ | mood |
| |  geeky | ] |
I see this community has been silent for a while, but I hope it becomes active again soon. I've spent hours reading past entries (comments and everything), and you all have such insightful things to say! My 5 wing is reveling in all this new information! ^_^
I don't want this to be an entirely pointless "hi, I'm a 4 too!" post, so I'll list some songs that seem 4ish to me (even though it's been done already in a previous entry--I would comment on that entry, but it's very old).
"Vincent"--Don McLean (Starry, starry night/Paint your palette blue and gray/Look out on a summer's day with eyes that know the darkness in my soul...)
"My Selene"--Sonata Arctica (Serene and silent sky, rays of moon are dancing with the tide/And I, the loneliest child alive/Always waiting, searching for my rhyme/I'm still alone in the dead of night...)
"Imaginary"--Evanescence (Don't say I'm out of touch with this rampant chaos, your reality/I know well what lies beyond my sleeping refuge/The nightmare I built my own world to escape...)
"I Wish I Felt Nothing"--The Wallflowers (But I hear voices/And I see colors/But I wish I felt nothing/Then it might be easy for me like it is for you...)
"Dust in the Wind"--Kansas (I close my eyes/Only for a moment and the moment's gone/All my dreams pass before my eyes, a curiosity/Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind...)
"The Music of the Night"--The Phantom of the Opera (Night time sharpens, heightens each sensation/Darkness stirs and wakes imagination/Silently the senses abandon their defenses...)
"I'm Still Here"--Johnny Rzeznik (They can't tell me who to be/'Cause I'm not what they see/Yeah, the world keeps on sleeping while I keep on dreaming for me/And their words are just whispers and lies that I'll never believe...)
"Sally's Song"--The Nightmare Before Christmas (I sense there's something in the wind/That feels like tragedy's at hand/And though I'd like to stand by him, can't shake this feeling that I have/The worst is just around the bend...)
Any 4 songs you can think of, I'd like to hear! :)
(Oh, this is a bit random, but is anyone familiar with the character in my icon? A 4 sx, if there ever was one!) |
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| hey there |
[Aug. 7th, 2007|02:45 am] |
| [ | mood |
| |  lonely | ] |
Hi ! I'm new here , and recently I found out about the enneagram and I was fascinated by it .
I'm definitely a 4 , not sure which wing yet.
Right Now I'm trough a very hard time in my life and I'm kinda depressed , but I'm ok I guess.
I would like to know more about 4's relationships , because right now I'm really confused with the "relationship" I'm in , it seems to be pretty one sided , this guy does not give me the attention I need , just when he wants. But for some reason I'm always there for him , even though I know hes not really interested in me. So the thing is that I I seem to want what i can't have , hes not the cutest or intelligent guy on earth but i still need his attention and I'm definetly not getting it .There are some guys that would like be with me , that would treat me right but for some reason I'm only focusing on what I cant have , or on whats not there for me . What I notice is that he does not see me as interesting , he thinks I'm boring and i have found myself trying to change his mind ,I cant stand that he thinks that I'm boring or not interesting because deep inside I know I'm not like all of the other girls .Well what a pathetic story .. I just wanted to know how this could be related to the enneagram . type 4 . and sorry if this has nothing to do with it .
Has someone been is a situation like this before?
Sorry about my english , my native language is spanish so I'm doing my best :)
have a nice day |
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| 3s & 4s Looking Into the Internal Mental Mirror |
[Aug. 6th, 2007|02:35 am] |
| [ | mood |
| |  contemplative | ] |
This entry was elicited from commentary betwixt myself and Odyssey. We were discussing the similarities and differences in how 3s and 4s search for a "mirror" in other people, and what exactly that means to each type, and I was rather proud of one of my responses, so I re-post it here:
"I think both 3s and 4s have a preoccupation with mental and archetypal "mirrors." Both are preoccupied with themselves in really intricate, complex, but rather different, ways. It seems that when most 3s look into a mental mirror, they are comparing what they see with an ideal of what they SHOULD see, and they try to understand what impact the image of themselves will have on others, & they surmise how it would compare to the image were it closer to the ideal. They want to be attractive because they are ADMIRABLE-- they try to hide the shameful faluts. It's like they want all their good parts to be appreciated. Not appreciated enough? There must be ways of enhancing or adding to the good parts, right? The tragedy for the 3 is to often be so occupied with the lists of good parts and the appearance of the image, that they neglect their spirit, their heart, and their truth. Contrast this to the 4. When they look in the mental mirror, they're trying to understand WHY they are so... who they are. And who they are seems so out of touch and apart from everyone else. WHY? What is the STORY behind the odd appearance and the sad eyes they see in the mirror? When 4s get preoccupied with mirrors, they're searching for the hidden layers, the stuff you DON'T see in an image (by looking at an image? huh? but yeah...) and they look at and claim the FAULTS as much, perhaps more, than any strengths. They almost savor their own shame. Because it points to a unique person with a unique story. There is redemption in the pain (so they tell themselves) for it teaches compassion-- and an appreciation for the melodramas of life. And they hope (as I do in my secret shadows) to be SEEN, faults and all, and yet still be appreciated for the fascinating beings they are-- as they strive to learn to appreciate themselves. (All 4s think they're fascinating in comparison to most others-- this is our one TRUE vanity!) The great tragedy for the 4 is that they are so occupied with their own tragic, fascinating, image of themselves (no matter how true) that they no longer allow happiness and hope to touch them. I want to be "seen" because I don't feel I am seen or understood very often at all. My shadowy 4 side wants to be interesting enough that I seem worth the effort to someone else-- and I selfishly want to be the heroine in someone else's story besides my own, I guess! (At least sometimes.) I've mostly outgrown the sensation, but it comes back to haunt me from time to time! I want to be "seen" because I don't feel I am seen or understood very often at all. My shadowy 4 side wants to be interesting enough that I seem worth the effort to someone else-- and I selfishly want to be the heroine in someone else's story besides my own, I guess! (At least sometimes.) Probably to fulfill that intense need for validation that all 4s have (and, indeed, 2s and 3s-- or the "feeling" types-- as well.)" |
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| help me to think more logical |
[Dec. 6th, 2006|07:13 pm] |
| [ | Current Location |
| | bedroom | ] |
| [ | mood |
| |  curious | ] |
| [ | music |
| | "Rain" by the beatles | ] |
Hey there...new to the community. I'm actually a 2 with a wing in 4, but interested in posting here cause the centers of both these types deal with feeling. Any of u know any good ways or resources to help me learn to think less with my feelings.
"My own brain is to me the most unaccountable of machinery-- always buzzing, humming, soaring roaring diving, and then buried in mud. And why? What's this passion for?"
Well, it's 4:30 am and I can't sleep as usual lately..my mind racing, and i feel that i need to work on thinking more logically; rather than emotional. I've been reading a book on upping my EQ, because i am way too sensitiveand that's what i need to focus on. However, this isn't really what i'm looking for...if u have a suggestionf or something to help me learn to think more with my brain or gut, then please send me a recommendation. thank u! p.s. i'm looking on the internet about how to think more rationally or objectively, but if there is anything spectacular that u know of, then kindly let me know. click here this page was interesting, and i appreciated the quote: "If you're basing your communications solely on logical, rational, reasoned facts... the brain is not your friend. Emotions are the gatekeeper... if you want in, you gotta talk to the amygdala."
another good one,click here had this tip:
"If you find it difficult to look at your negative thoughts objectively, imagine that you are your best friend or a respected coach or mentor. Look at the list of negative thoughts and imagine the negative thoughts were written by someone you were giving objective advice to, and think how you would challenge these thoughts.
These are some examples of how you can challenge negative thinking. You should be able to quickly see whether the thoughts are wrong, or whether they have some substance to them. Where there is substance to the negative thoughts, take appropriate action. In these cases, negative thinking has been an early warning system for you, showing where you need to direct your attention."
sometimes i may think too irrationally and act unappropriately, but i'm trying harder with each unfortunate circumstance to correct this behaviour. Could it all be that i think too much? |
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| When the Illusions Are Gone... |
[Nov. 14th, 2006|12:15 am] |
| [ | mood |
| |  pessimistic | ] |
Here's a Type 4 issue I don't think I ever expected to face-- getting slammed by a down spell in mood after I've worked hard to rid myself of Type 4 illusions.
Working on the Enneagram for nearly 14 years as a Type 4 has meant facing up to those issues that can hold a 4 back. Like needing to feel unique, or dwelling upon the melodramatic emotions of the past. It was very important to me to develop towards Health along the continuum, because at one time I was all the way down at the bottom: Level 9-- the Level of Self-Destruction. Pretty terrible place to be, really. By the time I had found the Enneagram, I had come to about health level 4 or 5, being very Goth at the time (1991) and quite into the "life as art & suffering" thing. I loved personality books and tests, and found the Enneagram to be exactly what I was looking for: a system that addressed the differences not only among types, but also along "happy and healthy" versus "messed up and mentally ill." THANK YOU! At last, a system that admitted that not everyone of even the same type was the same. Some people are assholes. Some are stuck in a rut of self-denial & self-hatred. Could we stop pretending everyone's okay and get to the bottom of how to fix these things? Once I had this tool-kit to work with, I did just that. I actually made it all the up to Health Level 2 after about 8 years or so. I was really proud of how far I'd come, and looked back upon my past selves with pity.
Cut to the present.
I've managed to live a life free from depression, despite all the obstacles, health-wise, financially, and relationally I've had to deal with over the last decade. Then, slowly, slowly, all the crap that started hitting me from a couple of years ago starts to catch up with me and I sink... down back into depression. Some days are better, and I think I'm going to pull myself out of it, but then the wave crashes back into me and I'm rolling around in the surf, helpless to get any real perspective or control. My coping skills are much better. My ability to effectively communicate is totally improved. My sense of self is still good-- I know who I am and I like that person. But none of that has staved off the fact that right now life is really hard to live just day to day. Everything and everyone seems to get to me too harshly, and I withdraw and quail before the big, ugly, darkness of it all.
Here's the problem. Once upon a time I had some rather comforting illusions about myself: That I really WAS unique. That I was special in some profound, if perhaps secret, very positive, way. That, yes, I was messed up, but it wasn't my fault-- the world wasn't sophisticated enough to understand the complex and much-suffering creature that was me. Now-- all of that is gone. I don't really think I'm that special. I mean, I am an individual, sure-- but I've run into lots of people that are quite a bit like myself in many ways. I know I don't have any special destiny for my life-- except what I create myself (and we all know that's not the same thing as a DESTINY that just falls into our laps like the heros from stories...) I can't excuse my own failures on the rest of the world anymore. And, though I don't blame myself for other people's problems, I also realize that my being healthier doesn't mean I get any more credit from those who are still messed up.
My precious little false beliefs that I used as a buffer between me and my own dark side and the often harsh world and its mainly indifferent inhabitants is gone. Now what?
Has anyone else faced this? |
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| Movie Recommendation |
[May. 11th, 2006|10:35 pm] |
| [ | music |
| | Hello Hello by Sophie Ellis-Bextor | ] |
One character in particular is very Type 4ish in personality. In fact the storyline is too...
I just saw it tonight although I've long wanted to see what it's about. It's rather good, full of suspense...and intense.
Wicker Park |
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| Limerence |
[May. 9th, 2006|10:05 pm] |
| [ | mood |
| | contemplative | ] |
| [ | music |
| | Triple Combination by Captain Beefheart | ] |
Would you say that Type 4s are more likely to be limerant...extremely so to the point of feeling insane or totally obsessed? |
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| Type 4 Wife & Type 6 Husband Dispute |
[Mar. 6th, 2006|08:08 am] |
| [ | mood |
| |  annoyed | ] |
The evening's events brought up another issue: The future plans of my husband's father to "party" at our house once the weather improves. Gerick, my husband, is four-square against turning our sanctuary into some oasis for his father's drunken revelries. He discussed what sorts of excuses he could make to get out of feeling obligated to indulge his father, like saying we lived near our landlords and couldn't afford to piss them off-- and I got very impatient. It is at such times as these that I feel my 4ness against his 6ness most accutely!
At one point I ranted: "Honey! I have to say I don't really care what your father thinks enough to feel I need to have an EXCUSE to say NO to him! Nor can I say that embarrassing ourselves to our landlords is even in my top 5 reasons not to do this thing your father's way. They have no right to expect us to cater to them anymore! The truth is-- and I'll damn well say it!-- that I don't like being around your father when he's drunk, PERIOD! And I don't mind telling him so. I'll say it as gently as I can, but I'll darn well say it! 'I love ya, Pops, but I can't be around you when you drink too much, so we're not inviting you to any sort of alcohol parties.' Whatever! And you know what? I'm ALLOWED to say that! And IF the subject comes up, you may expect me to say it, and-- what's more-- I'm not going to be shushed or corrected by you if it happens!"
He sense of propriety was rankled by my declaration, naturally. Yet, later, he admitted out of the blue that I had a point. The problem behavior was his father's problem. Our mentioning it honestly and making rules to avoid it was not. But, he admitted, it was just REALLY hard to make decisions based upon things like personal comfort or even just plain "right & wrong." Reputation to allies and authorities is nearly everything to him in social decisions. And I admitted that this difference between us never ceased to irk me. I know full well that my disdain for other's opinions in most situations can go too far and get me in justifiable trouble. But there are times when the compulsion serves me well. Like in standing up to people who are trying to take advantage of us-- it's much more difficult for Gerick than it is for myself. I can live almost comfortably with the open knowledge of others' dislike of me if it comes to that-- lady knows I'm used to it! Yet, for Gerick, this brings paroxyms of anxiety, for to be thought poorly of is the greatest of his insecurities. Having ME for a wife forces him into facing his fears of social retribution with regularity. For myself, I hate feeling pressured to consider others before myself in situations that are really not up to others at all. I know this difference between us is not likely to be resolved until our enneagrammatical health is mutually improved. |
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| Feb. '06 Topic: Are Type 4s Gender Benders? |
[Feb. 24th, 2006|11:20 pm] |
| [ | mood |
| | curious | ] |
Once a month, I'm going to start bringing up a topic for this forum to discuss. I shall try for issues which are controversial or pushing the envelope to inspire us all to share our opinions. Hopefully we'll start to see a little more traffic here as a result as well!
This month's topic: Type 4s and their apparent tendancy to be more "androgynous" than the general population. I'm not talking about purposeful cross-dressing or transexual orientations, but rather that the lines between masculine and feminine are more blurred, regardless of sexual orientation.
I think it's obvious why Type 4 males would show this-- Type 4 behaviorisms (sensitive, artistic, dramatic, shy, symbolically expressive) tend to get "ghettoized" into the realm of the exclusively feminine in our culture. Men are supposed to be tough, logical, stoic, assertive, and practical-- and so 4 males would automatically not fit that classic picture right there.
What's interesting is how, despite Type 4 behaviors being seen as more traditionally "feminine," 4 females are quite often rather androgynous themselves. Even the ones who love romance seem drawn to dark themes, oddball ideas, and verbal self-expressions and thoughts that seem to fit better with more masculine ideals. Why is this?
In wardrobe choices, an individual male or female, in expressing themselves symbolically, may often find that their outerware seems to express something perhaps a little less proper than what is considered the norm for their gender. (Witness Goth guys or Grunge girls!)
Also, type 4 males and females both seem to get along with and "fall in like" with both sexes fairly equally. We don't seem to limit ourselves or discriminate in relationships with the sexes quite as sharply as others do. Many of us had this tendancy even as children. (For example, one day I could be climbing trees and getting into monster stuff with the boys, the next I'd be into melodramatic playacting and dolls with the girls.)
[Please feel free to discuss ANYthing about this topic or issues brought up in this post around the topic.] |
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| 2 question Enneagram test |
[Feb. 18th, 2006|05:18 pm] |
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( Read more... ) |
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| Flaubert's grasp of 4ishness |
[Jan. 6th, 2006|02:21 pm] |
x-posted to ![[info]](http://p-stat.livejournal.com/img/community.gif) typefours
Most descriptions of 4s describe us as having been emotionally damaged in some serious way as children. But I wasn't. No, really. I had a ridiculously placid childhood, with attentive parents, a nice neighborhood, a supportive extended family, and plenty of friends. I know--don't throw up yet.
So, I started reading Madame Bovary yesterday, perhaps the most 4ish book ever written, and I came across this passage that put it all in perspective:
Accustomed to peaceful sights, she was drawn to scenes of contrast and unrest. She liked the sea only because of its forms, and verdure only when it was scattered among ruins. She had to be able to extract some sort of personal benefit from things, and she rejected as useless anything which did not contribute to the immediate gratification of her heart, for her temperament was more sentimental than artistic and she sought emotion, not landscapes.
There are several paragraphs that follow this one, from Part I, Chapter 6, which continue to adeptly (I think) described the nature of a 4. (Though not in a particularly flattering way, I should add). |
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| Neurotic 4 in Notes From Underground |
[Dec. 14th, 2004|11:41 am] |
I'm reading Dostoevsky's Notes From Underground, which ought to have been titled Notes From a 4w5. Although I'm only 20 pages in, the unnamed narrator is clearly a 4w5 in the depths of neuroses. I might start handing it out as a manual for how to handle me on a bad day.
( Read these quotes to see what I mean. ) |
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[Sep. 20th, 2004|12:50 am] |
This post was too long to reply to the previous post about variant stackings so I'm posting it to the community. Enjoy, because it's good.
( Variant stacking descriptions ) |
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| making friends |
[Sep. 14th, 2004|04:11 pm] |
i am a 4 with a strong 5 wing--so strong in fact that it often overwhelms my 4 score on tests. nonetheless, i'm a 4. for the record, i have been married for 6 years to 3w2. that's another post all together. i'm also an INFJ.
my question...
generally speaking, i have a relatively easy time meeting people, unless i'm just not in the mood. i have learned how to strike up a conversation and keep it moving, typically by asking questions of the other person. however, i have a problem taking that friendship to the next level--i'm not good out of making friends from acquaintances, or making intimate friends out of friends. in the last 8 years (since i graduated college) i have made only 1 intimate friend, maybe 2 casual friends, and have actually experienced a downgrade in many friendships, from intimate to casual, casual to acquaintance, acquaintance to no longer in touch, etc.
do any of the rest of you experience this problem? how do you combat it, both emotionally and tactically (i.e., strategies)? i'm not particularly shy, although i have my moments of painful self-doubt... |
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[Sep. 14th, 2004|09:25 am] |
| [ | mood |
| |  awake | ] |
| [ | music |
| | Fatboy Slim-Homework | ] |
I remember that awhile ago, either in this community or in typefours, there was a big discussion on whether or not 4's could have good relationships w/ 3's. 6's. and 9's. I'm a 4w5 who's dating a guy who I'm fairly sure is a 9w1, and our relationship is still going pretty steady, no major snags or anything. So I just wanted to ask everyone which types they got along well with, had great relationships with, and absolutely hated being around. Of course, not ALL 6w7's are going to be good for fours, or 8w9's bad for fours, but I just wanted to see if there was a pattern. I've heard that 4's and 9's do really well together because 4's create the drama and then 9's make everything peaceful. They both always have something to do. |
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| weird |
[Sep. 14th, 2004|03:09 am] |
| [ | mood |
| | geeky | ] |
I should already be on this community! Stupid me for not thinking to search for a 4 community, of course there is one, you dramatic hermits.
I'm obsessed with the Enneagram. It's awesome. I am a 4w5 INFJ "Idiosyncratic". I have a community typers. Join it.
I think I will do some kind of introduction.
My name is Hayley, I recently moved to Springfield, Oregon. Me (19) and my fiance (21), a 7w6 (so nice to say that and know that everyone knows what I'm talking about) have recently moved here from Anaheim, California. He's from here (Oregon) originally. Here's his journal: ![[info]](http://p-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif) braditude. I like Oregon because it rains and I hate hot weather and there's more to do here. We had a daughter on May 23, her name is Pearl. I look forward to typing her when possible, I hope I got a good one.
Now, some four-ish ramblings.
I'm feeling very love-deprived right now. Very bored, lonely (but not in the good, isolated kind of way), stupid, ugly, bored, lonely, stupid, ugly, etc. You know it!
I wish I could meet someone who knows all about the Enneagram, then I could instantly have someone to be best friends with. I am friend-deprived. I just moved here, like I said. Plus I suck, I'm shy, I have a baby, I don't know how to go about these things.
I don't know what else to say. I'm probably going to browse some journals and add some of you.
Looking back on this post, I probably look pretty lame. I'm not I swear. |
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