tcampbell1000 ([info]tcampbell1000) wrote in [info]savgedisassmbly,
@ 2005-10-21 15:58:00
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"Crush'd"
I feel a bit like I'm bringing a gun to a knife fight. Phil and Erik have brought some early work to the table, and PENNY & AGGIE is a more "mature" piece, I think. Gisele and I have been at this a few years and we probably have most of our early kinks worked out. But no one's above reproach, and sometimes not seeing flaws is a bad sign.

"Crush'd" is a PENNY & AGGIE story that begins with http://www.pennyandaggie.com/d/20041227.html and ends with http://www.pennyandaggie.com/d/20050218.html (though it leads pretty organically into the next story-- I may put that one on the block later).

You can be a bit tougher on it than what Phil and Erik got-- I won't mind.

Disassemble, Stephanie.

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[info]m_monique
2005-10-22 02:02 am UTC (link)
yikes, first critique!

well, i've done a quick read-through, which i enjoyed, but i want to read a few more times to digest. i will post tomorrow with full commments.

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[info]williamgeorge
2005-10-22 06:42 pm UTC (link)
Hey, T. You wanted me to pop in and say a few words.

Since you're not the artist, I wont say too much about it. It's good, though. The girls are very cute, and Gisele would make a fine Betty & Veronica artist some day. Some of it seems to skirt around fanservice at times. But ehn...

Storywise... well, it just didn't seem like anything I haven't seen a million times on a million sitcoms: Protagonist gets the hots for fresh meat, and hatches a wacky plan that goes horribly awry. All it really needed was Chandler and Joey exhibiting their man-love between panels by riffing on each other.

This isn't to say it's bad, it's a sitcom staple afterall. But it didn't realy bring anything new to it. I guess the best way to put it would be that the story was nice and safe.

But, as we segued into the mini-story of Nick's starting to feel his age, my interest was piqued... being that age and feeling that feeling myself. But I think you ended what could have been (for me at least) an interesting side story in a way that made me think you wanted move on to the next thing ASAP:

"Guy is starting to come to terms with is getting older. Just give him a hot fitness instructor as a reward and forget about him."

Also, I'm finding the current story a bit more intriguing, and I would like to see some more solid ramifications for all of the characters involved.

As I mentioned, it seems like a sitcom. Last week's preblems never happened, and Homer is up to his usual wacky hijinks again. And maybe that's your intent. If it is, good job. And while I admit I havent read all of the archives, I would like to see some lasting effects of what the girls do.

there yah go.

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[info]williamgeorge
2005-10-22 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Oh yeah, Duane has a jerry-curl in the most recent strip.

just...no...

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[info]m_monique
2005-10-23 04:47 am UTC (link)
I liked the story. The somewhat awkward girl with a powerful crush is pretty much a universal theme, and being a female myself, I was able to identify very easily with Aggie.

I’ll admit that up until now, I was unfamiliar with the Penny and Aggie stories. So I had some minor trouble jumping into the plot-—there was a bit of initial confusion as to who was who and how people were involved with each other (I should have visited the cast page sooner rather than later). Part of the issue may have been the art style, which was expressive, well-executed and very polished, but sometimes made age and gender distinction difficult. I'm guessing that if I were more familiar with the style, my reading would be easier. I will say that I do like the overall artistic feel and find it well-suited to the writing.

There were a couple of times when I wondered about Aggie’s choice of wording. For example, when she’s thinking about the guy she turned down, listing all the possible excuses she could have used (all of which I liked, by the way). It just didn’t sound quite natural for Aggie to say to herself “could it be that I really do prefer girls?." I gather that she’s unusually bright and sensitive, but it seemed unlikely for her to be carrying on such a formal dialogue with herself.

I did enjoy Aggie’s dream that involved killing off Marshall’s mom just so they’d have some common ground, that was so very teenage girl. And I also liked the not-so-subtle manipulation tactic she used with Penny later on so that she could vent some frustration. Very very teenage girl, or just plain human, really—-interestingly, it’s a tactic she might have used with her mom.

I’m definitely intrigued, I plan to keep reading.

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[info]mister_wolf
2005-10-24 02:52 pm UTC (link)
Dammit, man! Last time you posted something, I had trouble finding anything good to say about it. This time, I'm having a hard time thinking of anything bad to say. I think it's a very sweet story that succeeds at pretty much everything it tries to acomplish. Also, excelent choice of artist; this guy is prefect for this strip.

I'm going to have another few looks through to see if I can find anything non-art related to pick on.

One thing that does make me uncomfortable is that Aggie is supposed to be 15. On the one hand, I'd be a huge hypocrite if I complained about sexualized female characters, on the other hand, it bugs me a little that the sexualized female characters are minors. It's sort of the anime problem, where you have a story that's explicitly about teenaged children, on the other hand those children are dawn in such away as to emphasise whatever adult characteristics they may have developed. I'd be more comfortable if the characters were in the 16-19 range, which is what they look like, anyway. At abosulute least, Aggie is awfully lush for 15.

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-24 06:50 pm UTC (link)
If it makes you feel better, a later strip identifies Aggie as sixteen.

We did briefly consider toning down the sexy-- but after a casual observation of how teens actually dress, that approach just felt a bit disingenuous.

(Also, puberty really is taking place earlier and earlier. No one knows why.)

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[info]mister_wolf
2005-10-24 07:02 pm UTC (link)
I'd be lying through my teeth if I said I really minded. I just put the low two-digit integer far from my mind. Anyway, it's in line with the TV tradition of teens in sitcoms being played by actors who are old enough to drink. I'm reaching, here. Your comic is too damn good.

The only other thing I don't like about it, and I'm being oversensetive, here, is the transforming-the-fat-chick squenece, which is the reason I haven't read the whole archive. I don't know why it bugs me so much - I mean, my experience is that most big girls know how to present themselves just fine, and didn't learn it from a skinny chick. But then again I know of a lot who don't. She also seems to have turned into a black hat, but then again I like bad girls, so why should that bother me? I think the idea of a skinny girl teaching a big girl how to be beautiful seems a little patronizing to me, is all, I guess.

But again, I'm being weirdly oversensetive, and it's mostly not even in the sequence you wanted reviewed.

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-24 07:45 pm UTC (link)
Fun fact: "The Mockingbird" grew out of my tooth-grinding indignation at the reality show "The Swan," which may just place among the top ten most reprehensible television programs of all time. But this kind of Pygmalioning is an old teen-comedy trick. Gis and I were still working out the characters a bit and I wanted to go traditional with a twist.

Oh, and I guess I should specify: Gisele's not a guy, and we co-created the series. ;-)

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[info]mister_wolf
2005-10-24 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Again with the nitpicking. I'll see if I can't come up with something more substantiative, later.

I also feel like I could do a better job of saying what I like about it, so more of that, later, too.

Oh, and I guess I should specify: Gisele's not a guy, and we co-created the series. ;-)

Not suprised. If I really like a comic, odds are that there's a woman involved.

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[info]williamgeorge
2005-10-26 12:50 pm UTC (link)
Fun fact: "The Mockingbird" grew out of my tooth-grinding indignation at the reality show "The Swan," which may just place among the top ten most reprehensible television programs of all time.

It's my number two.

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[info]technosapien
2005-10-25 12:22 am UTC (link)
Review eventually. I was out of town all weekend, didn't even see this post until just now.

- Aric

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[info]technosapien
2005-10-28 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Oy. I read the story a few more times. I've read it before, and just hadn't remembered its name. I like the Crush'd story. As a nurse, it's nice to see a little truth and work went into the proper treatment of a medical condition. I've taken care of lots of heat-stroke and -exhaustion patients. I think Ag even gets off a bit easy this time. I've seen people needing IV fluids and a trip to the ER for stuff like what she pulled!
As for honest and/or brutal critique... well, I just don't know that I can add much. I guess a problem with jumping in this late despite having no time to earlier, is that everything's been said that I can think of.
Marshall comes across as a little bish to me. I dunno... maybe a little pretty-boyish to me, but then he's still young, vibrant... and I'm old and crotchety.... Meehhh....
That aside, I've always love Gisele's artwork. I can find nary a fault with it. Just beautiful. :)
This comic is pure gold. This is exactly how my mind works sometimes. A scene I'm developing for a future comic project has a Dali-esque setting with a Scottish-brogue-bawling, flying, killer whale.

Really, T... I don't know what to say. This story in particular seemed tight to me, from writing to artwork. Maybe it's just my limited experience with comics overall that I can't find more to critique?
- A

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[info]riff13
2005-10-25 04:42 am UTC (link)
Nice story...The only complaint I had about the writing and this is very minor is that it is something that you might find in a TV sit-com, any of them. You know, the head over heels girl hatches a plan and the plan ends up going horribly wrong. However, I did like how you broke with that traditional story and in this arc it didn't end up with a happy ending. The dialog was well written and believable. And the story moved a long at a good pace.

There were some times when the drawing felt off. Like panel 3 of this strip http://www.pennyandaggie.com/d/20050202.html the foreshortening is killing me the lady with the wash cloth feels tiny compared to Aggie's head. OK I know you're not the artist, but that panel drove me nuts so I had to say something about it.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-25 01:26 pm UTC (link)
I like Penny and Aggie as long as it refrains from taking the teenage girl drama seriously. This story arc veers a little closer than some of the others, but stays safe. That said, "Uptown Girl," was where i quit reading until you made this post. But, since you didn't put it on the block yet, I'll hold off with that.

The general action is well scripted. I liked the sequence where Aggie imagines Marshall's mother dead, and how she uses Penny to feel better. It's perfectly petty. Everything is completely believable, and the pacing is also very good.

In the end, however, the strip lacks a certain amount of depth for me. Highschool? Been there, done that, I was miserable. Your characters are well-defined, but they tend towards the shallow and vanilla. As far as teenage girl hi-jinks go, everything is done extremely well, it's just missing that little bit of extra. Neither of the characters seems to be interested in anything unique (for teenage girls, even.) Just a little bit of oddball would let me connect with them (any of them) a lot better.

In the end, I just have to wonder how this would have read to me if I were still in middle school, and I wonder what you're doing to get your comic to that population, because it would probably be immensely popular. Besides, those brats are already all over the internet. Have you ever taken a serious look at livejournal?

I will probably flesh this out more later, but for now i must run to class.

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[info]glitchphil
2005-10-25 08:56 pm UTC (link)
I've said this to T already, but I think his grasp of teenage girls and teenage girl politics is astonishing for not being a girl himself.

I, too, enjoyed the Dead Mom dream sequence, because it was fucked up in a very realistic way. The subconcious can be a strange thing.

I can see where the depth is lacking for you (and me personally). But the depth is there. We're not privvy to it, because we weren't the types that invested our time and energy into high school politics. I imagine that you, like me, was busy bouncing around with the other poets, artists, and free spirits.

My ex was very invested in high school politics when she was still going. Especially since she lived in a small town. She told me all about what her friends did and how that was bitchy, etc. In fact, she pretty much schooled me right here.

But I think you're onto something, Rae. The middleschool market is definitely tappable for P&A. Especially on LJ.

T... why don't you run two livejournals. One written by Penny, and one written by Aggie a la Achewood. That could not only be fun, but offer more content to the site and perhaps garner more attention. They have to be LiveJournals, though.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 01:48 am UTC (link)
"But the depth is there. We're not privvy to it, because we weren't the types that invested our time and energy into high school politics."

Highschool politics, by definition, are shallow. Complicated, maybe, but definitely shallow. I never disputed that T executes it well, only that highschool politics aren't interesting to me all by themselves. I'd like to see a little more character growth.

I find it amusing that your ex admits to hating both characters. I, myself, can't find much reason to read about people I don't like. The whole debate over which character is more shallow seems pointless to me, if you think that neither one is even particularly likeable. That is, unless the writing pokes fun at them. With P&A, sometimes it does, but it still takes itself rather seriously. So no matter how accurate the whole thing is, it still falls flat for me.

I'm not given to liking people like Penny and Aggie. But that doesn't mean the comic just isn't for people like me. No one would say they were given to liking mob bosses, but that doesn't stop people from becoming emotionally invested in those sorts of characters.

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[info]glitchphil
2005-10-26 02:25 am UTC (link)
I think the depth of high school politics lies in the people who engage in them over the subject of the politics themselves. The depth's in the participants and the ever burning question of why they engage in them. So on the surface, of course, they are shallow. But there's deeper stuff to it, I believe. Which is where your character growth intertwines.

"I, myself, can't find much reason to read about people I don't like."

Heh heh. Investing time and attention to the people you don't like is the very definition of high school politics.

"I'm not given to liking people like Penny and Aggie. But that doesn't mean the comic just isn't for people like me. No one would say they were given to liking mob bosses, but that doesn't stop people from becoming emotionally invested in those sorts of characters."

I don't think that was ever in contention.

Oh, and I wasn't disputing anything with you. I was just adding my other of two cents as a follow up to yours.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 05:23 am UTC (link)
You essentially said that the "depth is there." I call BS. Neither the politics, nor the people who engage in them have any depth at all. There isn't anything more to it than popularity and feeling good about yourself. Take Aggie's shameless manipulation of Penny in "Crush'd" or her manipulation of Duane and Penny in the previous storyline for a few good examples. That's the very definition of shallow.

The fact that you say the depth is there, but we're not privy to it, I took to mean "you're not supposed to get it, it's not for [people like us]." Hence my response.

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-26 06:09 am UTC (link)
It's difficult to distinguish between Nobler Motives and What Makes Us Feel All Noble. At times P&A even plays with the idea that there isn't really a difference at all.

It's been bugging me for a while, but I wasn't sure it was my place to explain-- but I'm gonna go on the record here: Aggie DID NOT manipulate Penny in "Crush'd." She tried to, for all of one panel, and it backfired. That's not fake crying at the end there, and though Penny's a bit embarrassed she's also reaching out to Aggie as a human being. When their conversation continues into "Last Days of Summer," their differences reassert themselves. But to assume Aggie planned that whole scene is to give her credit for a much better acting skill than she's shown before or since.

With "The Ticket" you've got a stronger case. Aggie is manipulating Penny and Duane there, and for artistic but ultimately selfish ends. But her conscience soon reasserts itself.

Aggie is in general a very, VERY principled person, at times too principled for her own good. That's what draws her into conflict with Penny in the first place. Penny would actually like to be shallow, but can't quite manage it. Pesky compassion keeps getting in the way (and again, if you really want to read her compassion as "feeling good about herself," I can't stop you). For me, this elevates the two above the definition of shallowness. The slow push to more demanding stories is meant to further round them out, one dimension at a time.

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[info]glitchphil
2005-10-26 01:20 pm UTC (link)
This is what I'm saying. The depth is in the motives.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 01:59 pm UTC (link)
I guess I blended "Crush'd" with "The Last Days." When I said Aggie used Penny to feel better, I was remembering this strip. I didn't mean to say that she planned the exchange, but in a very real sense, she does USE Penny to feel better.

Also, it seems to me, that although Aggie thinks of herself as principled, she especially likes to emphasize that difference by comparing herself to Penny. If she were truly very principled, she wouldn't feel the need to be so catty with Penny. She would think ill of Penny, but she wouldn't go out of her way to piss her off. That is petty and shallow no matter how you slice it.

And then, when she's not just trying to irritate Penny, she's constantly trying to demonstrate publicly how she's a better person than Penny. That's essentially why Phil's ex said that Aggie is a bigger bitch. This is what I liked about the comic initially. Aggie, the stereotypical underdog, was actually a somewhat shallow person, whereas Penny, the stereotypical arrogant bitch, was actually a somewhat nice person. Shades of gray. But in stories like "Uptown Girl," they migrate towards stereotype rather than away from it.

The problem I see Aggie as having (and I mean what I read her intended character flaw to be) is that she's idealistically principled without actually being mature enough to really apply those principles to her life. To me, she's not just "too principled." This is what I see as the driving conflict in "The Race Card." Aggie THINKS she's above the race-conflict, then throws it in Penny's face to prove that she's better than her. The rationale for it was absolutely flimsy, so why jump to the conclusion that Penny rejected Duane for being black? Aggie wanted this to be the case, just so she could publicly demonstrate how much better than Penny she is. What's interesting about this one is that Aggie might actually learn something.

Penny is slightly less shallow than her stereotype. Slightly. Her "compassion" for Aggie evaporates extraordinarily quickly when she finds out the conflict involves a guy. She doesn't seem compassionate at all after that. Honestly, if you come upon someone you know crying, even if it's someone you loathe, you have to be at the height of cruelty to not ask them what's wrong. I never alleged Penny was overtly cruel. So she does the only human thing to do, and then once she satisfies her curiosity, she moves on to belittling Aggie's problems. Penny may just miss being shallow, but not by very much.

Take the strip where she donates a bottle of water to Aggie. Compassionate? I don't see it. She gets to improve her self-image (feel good about herself) while getting on Aggie's nerves. What could be a better combination? Maybe this aspect of her character will be more pronounced in the future.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 02:03 pm UTC (link)
And although she didn't intend to break down and cry, Aggie did walk into the store planning to be mean to Penny and make herself feel better, in this strip. So even if it didn't go perfectly, it ended exactly how she intended.

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-26 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, all these points seem right to me except the one about "Uptown Girl," addressed elsewhere. And you're right, Aggie's principles bend toward hypocrisy when it comes to going after Penny. She'd say that she's being a social critic, seeing injustice and speaking out, but that's a rationalization.

Penny just couldn't see crushing on a guy as a serious problem, having never gone through it herself and surrounding herself with others who are similarly secure in their invulnerability. If the conversation had taken place after "Uptown Girl," Penny's response would have been a bit different. It's obviously important to Aggie, but Penny's always thought Aggie was a bit of a flake.

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[info]glitchphil
2005-10-26 01:17 pm UTC (link)
Heh. I just don't think we're going to agree on this one :D

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-26 02:34 am UTC (link)
It's tough for me to sift out your trouble here, Rae. On the one hand, you say that the series loses its appeal for you when it begins to take the high school politics seriously. But on the other, you say you'd like to see a little more character depth. I don't really know how to do one without the other, short of isolating all the characters from one another forever. Politics are a function of how they interact.

If you didn't see the emotions getting deeper in "Uptown Girl" or "Crush'd," then I guess that's a communication problem. Those stories left the two leads with a greatly changed perspective on relationships, which comes to a head in the story we're doing right now. If that's not coming through, I may need to address that.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 05:15 am UTC (link)
The problem is that it takes the drama so seriously, yet the characters are still so plastic. I don't want both, I just want one or the other! It's hard to invest myself in a drama that only involves shallow, uninteresting people. Why bother? My point was just that flat characters are easy to deal with, so long as the conflicts also lack depth. As soon as the comic turns to deal with hard-hitting issues, the lack of depth in the characters becomes painfully obvious. I honestly wouldn't mind one way or the other, so long as it was consistent.

Either highschool drama is serious and interesting, in which case the characters should also be as such. OR highschool drama is stupid and petty, and the characters are also stupid and petty. As it is, the strip has been taking itself more and more seriously, which I did point out, but the characters remain the same. So that's the main reason "Uptown Girl" completely lost me.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 05:38 am UTC (link)
Crush'd has some similar problems to Uptown Girl, but that's where the problems I have with the series really stand out. So, even though it's not the storyline on trial, I'm going to just lay out how that arc lost me.

The storyline begins by introducing a new character, Rich. Rich is a shallow jackass. He says at the start of the storyline that he wants Penny because she's basically an expensive toy. He then proceeds to shamelessly use one of Penny's friends to get close to her. He even actively tries to stir up trouble between them. The word choice ("better mousetrap") specifically emphasizes that all of these maneuvers are tools for him in his conquest.

But as annoying as his character is, what's even more obnoxious is that Penny plays right into his hands. If the first part of the courtship was nauseating to watch unfold, the next part is even worse. Once Penny starts responding, and putting Rich through his paces, I start wondering, "why am I watching this stereotypical elaborately choreographed courtship ritual?" The first two strips about the dance are pretty flat. As for the third, it's the funniest in the arc so far, (mocha ice cream) but the story is still driving me nuts. Here, Penny shows herself to be even MORE stereotypical. Like all women, she's secretly dying for a man to just take charge of her.

So then she falls head over heels for Rich, and, contrary to Aggie's musings that she's "less patriarchal," it seems to me she's as patriarchal as possible. She's hanging all over him, letting him call the shots, and neglecting her friends. The whole thing only starts to fall apart when Penny falls in loooooooove, and starts worrying about Rich's safety. Typical female, getting all worked up and attached.

This whole time i'm reading it, i keep asking myself if she could be any more stereotypical.

As for Rich, after we see him using violence to defend himself from charges of being whipped, he protests the fact that Penny wants him to use safety gear. Typical male all over. Notice he says nothing about how much he cares for her. Really, we haven't heard anything at all from him since he declared his intentions of conquest.

So Penny gets all torn up over a guy who, so far as we can see, has looks and nothing else? Why should we even care about either one of them? Both characters are ridiculously shallow, and neither one of them seems to understand by the end what went wrong with the relationship. I don't see any character growth from either one of them through the entire arc. Then there's Aggie, being clueless, but attempting to help, and all she gets for her trouble is a verbal attack by Penny, which comes off as mean, but not particularly funny.

The story takes itself incredibly seriously, with the greatest number yet of angsty fourth panels. Yet, the characters are unbelievably flat. I'm sorry to be so hard on the strip, but this arc really did just lose me as a reader. It's not often that I definitively quit reading a strip, rather than just drifting away from it, but it did elicit that strong a reaction in me. I went back and read the rest of the strip since this discussion thread was started, and I don't feel that any of these problems are as prominent in later arcs.

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[info]glitchphil
2005-10-26 01:25 pm UTC (link)
I just want to take a moment and say how much I admire Rae's critical prowess.

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-26 03:32 pm UTC (link)
Wow, I'm spending a lot of ink on this. I would've preferred to save discussion of "Uptown Girl" for another day, but in the end I was driven to respond here. I hope it'll be a productive discussion in the long run, and not just defensive reasoning on my part.

"Uptown Girl" was pretty ambitious and I'm not surprised it lost some people. The angle you take is not one I've heard before, but I can see how it could be read that way, up to a certain point. Near the halfway point, though, your interpretation starts to lose me.

The idea here was that Penny and Rich are both alphas, and both kinda-sorta posers. Penny IS a spoiled little rich girl, but there's a better side to her that creeps out on occasion, and we saw more of it here than anywhere else. Rich is a roughneck, but unlike a lot of slimy guys who start out nice and then reveal themselves to be sleaze, Rich starts out employing the "toys and tools" mindset and somehow ends up in a more sensitive and vulnerable role than he imagined. Yes, Penny bends for him, but he bends, too. Unless you think he really likes to go figure skating in his spare time.

Perhaps one thing I could have made clearer: Penny intimidates most boys in her age group. Even the ones she's gone out with have been shy and hesitant. As Sara says, "She's always been in charge." She's not looking for a full-time overlord, but she is looking for someone about as assertive as she is. (Rich wins her over with his spine, not his pretty face.)

After Rich's initial seduction she starts taking greater and greater initiatives in their relationship-- promoting herself to his veejay, securing a website, and so on.

Believe it or not, Penny's worries about Rich's welfare are supposed to show how much HE'S bending and how straight SHE'S standing. This is the most important thing in the world to him, and he risks it rather than lose her. She doesn't whine or beg, and only pleads after Rich has totally lost the argument. At this point we get our clearest view into Rich's psychology-- he wants to please her but is afraid that as soon as he loses the "hardcore" elements that attracted her, he'll lose her. He may even be right-- their relationship may not be deep enough to survive THAT test.

This is the guy who started out thinking of himself as the master manipulator. This isn't character growth?

Penny's transformation doesn't seem like "embracing her stereotype" to me. A true diva would maintain her social position above all else and treat Rich as an add-on. Instead, Penny risks her precious status and allows her life to become about another person. Sure, she's trading one "typecast" role for another, but it's the longest sustained burst of selflessness we've seen from her, and she seems to like it.

In the end, it's a bridge too far for both of them and they snap back to the roles they had before. But the last strip is all about denial. They have changed. Penny's changes begin to become clear in "The Race Card;" you can glimpse them when Aggie takes Penny to task for her cold breakup and Penny can't quite shrug it off. Rich's will take more time to explore, and we'll probably do it in dribs and drabs.

As for this story taking itself more seriously than most others, guilty as charged, certainly. By now it should be clear that I felt the plot warranted it. I was inspired in part by the pattern of Hollywood romance and the difficulties that two "movie stars" have in building a love for each other against the backdrop of the fickle love of the masses, their own egos, and their "images."

One of the possible problems here is that P&A usually starts with a simple-looking "type" and saves the exploration for later. Readers don't always like to be told that their initial impressions are wrong. The first twenty strips or so do indeed look like we're seeing the beginning of two shallow people being shallow together, and it may be easier than I thought to interpret the later strips as shallow-people play-acting at depth. There's a little of that going on to be sure, when Penny declares "Let the whole world see my hickey!" But I hope most people see that it doesn't end there.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 04:17 pm UTC (link)
"Yes, Penny bends for him, but he bends, too. Unless you think he really likes to go figure skating in his spare time."

I don't see how figure-skating hurts his badass image any more than going dancing did. I don't see how this qualifies as bending for her. It was a date, not a change in his behavior.

"After Rich's initial seduction she starts taking greater and greater initiatives in their relationship-- promoting herself to his veejay, securing a website, and so on."

Yeah, so she bends more and more for him, and then asks him for ONE thing, the safety gear. So she stood straight on that, it's not much balanced against how much she rearranged her life for him. The sacrifice she was asking for him seems trivial by comparison.

"This is the guy who started out thinking of himself as the master manipulator. This isn't character growth?"

"This is the most important thing in the world to him, and he risks it rather than lose her."

Temporarily, maybe. Rich dabbles in giving her what she wants, but decides in the end that the safer route is to stick with preening his hardcore image. And he still seems to think of himself as a master manipulater at the end, when he essentially says "she'll come crawling back." Smiling as he thinks it, too! The reader doesn't get to see him hurt over her at all. The whole thing implies that he decided she wasn't worth it, and therefore he won't bend at all for her. If we actually got to see him angst over losing her, it would be a helluva lot clearer that he only chose his image over her because he didn't think he could have her without it.

I started figuring there was supposed to be a better side to Penny, but choosing to bring it out in a romantic relationship might have been a mistake. We haven't actually seen any of her dates, so the only thing we have to compare it to is her relationship with people she doesn't date. If she's nice when around a guy she's dating, and we compare this to how she treats other girls, it doesn't seem to temper anything we've already seen in her character. If, on the other hand, we could contrast this relationship with previous romantic ones, or if she showed more depth in a non-romantic relationship, the changes in her character would be more obvious. This would also, as you pointed out, have made more clear what attracted her to Rich in the first place.



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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 04:26 pm UTC (link)
I was inspired in part by the pattern of Hollywood romance and the difficulties that two "movie stars" have in building a love for each other against the backdrop of the fickle love of the masses, their own egos, and their "images."

I liked the strip where Penny finds herself unexpectedly eclipsed in her role as Rich's girlfriend. (The one where the other girl gets her name wrong.) I really would have liked to see more of that conflict. When and how and why Penny decided that her own image was less important isn't clear to me, although strips like that give us hints that she hasn't completely changed. But it does seem like more of a throwaway gag than an integral part of the storyline.

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-26 07:47 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, maybe we coulda played with that a bit more. Penny was willing to risk some disapproval but not to become a cipher.

Relationships usually end by attrition, not by one big event, and that's kind of what I wanted to show happening here. Just a little something to gnaw at Penny and make the big issues look bigger still.

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[info]cubicchixor
2005-10-26 04:40 pm UTC (link)
I'd also like to repeat, just in case it wasn't clear, that the day-to-day execution of the strip is nearly flawless. The strip is indeed ambitious in that it attempts to tackle more serious stories, and it is only the workings of the more complex story-arcs that I have problems with. The important point here is that I'm don't feel tripped up on what is happening, or why, and I can see past that to the bigger picture. I had to subject the story to pretty intense scrutiny to pinpoint the issues I brought up. It requires a lot of skill to create a story so open to analysis.

What you're doing with P&A doesn't resemble anything I've ever tried, or would have the cojones to try anytime soon. In short, I admire the risks you've taken with what could have been a fairly standard gag strip.

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-26 07:48 pm UTC (link)
Thanks. And this did turn out to be pretty useful. I won't get to apply it to Rich's next appearance, but down the line...

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[info]tcampbell1000
2005-10-26 07:41 pm UTC (link)
Good comments. Both the dancing and the ice skating represent bending on Rich's part-- neither fits his macho self-image, and we see that they make a habit of the skating at least. I'll grant that Penny jumps into change much more enthusiastically than Rich does. But what she asks is no small thing to him. Besides, BEING a man's man means being less flexible.

It'd be more accurate to say that Rich chose his image over Penny because he thought he'd lose EVERYTHING without it. He's very class-conscious-- the first strip makes that clear-- and his challenges and arguments with Penny and fight with the guy who called him whipped all have one thing in common: a desire not to look weak.

We showed a few scenes where he seemed clearly worried about losing her-- or at least it seemed clear to ME; a lot of it was in Gisele's expressions.

Next time we see him, he'll be past the denial phase. :-)

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[info]spiffystuff
2005-10-26 03:42 am UTC (link)
I've said this to T already, but I think his grasp of teenage girls and teenage girl politics is astonishing for not being a girl himself.

I guess that's the one thing that sort of bothers me about this strip... I disagree. Having been a teenage girl, I was nothing like that, nor were my friends. A lot of it struck me as "what people think teenage girls are like".
Then again, everyone says I'm weird, and that my friends are weird, so maybe people really are like that. I think we managed to avoid each other through some instinctive mutual repulsion :P

Still, for what it is, it's well written, and oddly compelling.

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[info]glitchphil
2005-10-26 04:09 am UTC (link)
True enough, I don't know what it's like to be a teenage girl either. I guess what I mean is I'm impressed with how convincing he is.

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[info]spiffystuff
2005-10-26 06:19 pm UTC (link)
*nod nod* true that.

Actually, this strip stuck out for me -- I could really relate to that. I was very anti-touchy-feely for a long time, then through random casual contact grew to realize "hey... that feels good!" Now I'm addicted to snuggles, ah puberty.

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[info]glitchphil
2005-10-25 08:50 pm UTC (link)
I don't have too much to say with this bit. You know I like it. I paid money for it. That says enough on its own.

The thing that strikes me the best with Aggie's character is in her relatability. I think the most relatable character that can be written is one that routinely makes poor desicions.

Seeing Karen with Marshall when I read the story the first time made me go a big WTF. And I enjoyed reading the "prequel" story that Amy Mebberson drew, showing us all how they ended up getting together.

Like Rae, I'd love to write more, but have class.

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[info]glitchphil
2005-10-25 08:57 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and bonus points for the Short Circuit reference.

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[info]spiffystuff
2005-10-26 03:46 am UTC (link)
I read from "Crushed" on up... as others have said (and you are likely tired of hearing, but I shall go ahead and join them) I do find the subject matter a bit typical/steriotypical. I liked the longer storyarch better than the short bits, as these tend to get more into character development and rely less on poking-fun-at-yet-supporting steriotypes and cliches. I do like the characters though, and the writing's smooth, and there's a lot of room for interesting growth and developments.

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[info]emelander
2005-10-30 11:01 pm UTC (link)
The bad:
My first thought, the setup is a lot like Popular, the tvseries
http://imdb.com/title/tt0202748/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnx0dD0xfGZiPXV8cG49MHxrdz0xfHE9cG9wdWxhcnxmdD0xfG14PTIwfGxtPTUwMHxjbz0xfGh0bWw9MXxubT0x;fc=1;ft=145;fm=1

The reason why I bring this up is because the reason why the girls in the tvshow interact with each other were that ones mother and the others father got married. Why Penny and Aggie keep hanging around each other seems rather odd seeing how neither likes the other.

http://www.pennyandaggie.com/d/20041229.html
I don't quite like the text in the last panel. it seems a bit wordy. Simply cutting it down to "Ironically, the last one only makes them more interested"

http://www.pennyandaggie.com/d/20050119.html
While letting him accuse her work fine, it could also have worked if Penny had appeared in the dream and done it.

While not bad the art changes style now and then. I'm not entirely certain that the usuall style and the "manga funny faces" meshes flawlessly. Also in http://www.pennyandaggie.com/d/20050128.html is the change here intentional? It gives me a bit of a Harlequin novel feeling which is quite suitable for what is happening.

The dialogue in http://www.pennyandaggie.com/d/20050204.html seems rather odd. Second time he meets here she faints from heatexhaustion when running and he ends up yelling at her? It would have felt (slightly) more likely if one of the paramedics had done it.

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[info]emelander
2005-10-30 11:13 pm UTC (link)
The good:
Giselle's art is amazing of course.

The premise of this comic has a wide target audience (even though I'm not a part of it).

I like how there is continuity between the strips and how the last panel payoff isn't the sole point of each strip. All the panels add to the overall story and does so in a very smooth way, unlike many dailyish comic stips that have storylines.

The dialogue and wordcount is overall well balanced and believable, especially considering the constraints that a comic strips has.

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[info]emelander
2005-10-30 11:16 pm UTC (link)
Oh and while it may look like I've mentioned more bad than good, the bad things are nitpickings and the good things are general things.

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