Charles, a sinner ([info]cpk) wrote in [info]poker,
@ 2003-08-28 02:20:00
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Running bad, playing stupid, and the death of poker in the Pacific Northwest.
This is kinda long, but I hope it helps you as much as it helps me.

I made a reasonable profit playing poker last year. Certainly, $8k is not enough to live off of, and while $8k sounds impressive, given that it took about 1000 hours to make that $8k, it's not an impressive earn rate. Most of that cash was earned in 4-8 games, though, and 4-8 games are tough in the PNW, so I'm not upset about it. Making 1BB/hour shows that I have a lot to improve, but I don't totally suck, either.

And then I got stupid and decided to move up to 10-20 and 12-24. These are our top-limit games in the PNW, so those have the best players in the region--they're more like 40-80 games down south. What the f--- was I thinking? So in about 400 hours I've blown off $2400 (I have way fewer hours as I've found a "real" job so I have fewer chances to play).

I know most of my problem was that the games I played in were no good. Maybe I wasn't the "pigeon," but if everyone at a public table is of roughly equal skill, you're still going to lose money. And with the economy going to shit, finding a "good" game in this area is hard, even at the entry-level 3-6 limit. And sometimes, I was clearly the worst player, though I left as soon as I figured it out. I need to learn how to detect this earlier.

OK, so after flailing around a bit, I went back to the Hideaway up in Shoreline. The great thing about the Hideaway is that the players are, by and large, either weak and tight or loose and hyper-agressive--there are few, few solid players. But that's also the bad thing about the Hideaway--to make money against loose and aggressive players, you must (a) have a shitload of cash, and (b) not run bad.

But that's been the source of my trouble. I have run so horribly bad. This nonsense has been going on for 400 hours. I won't bore you with the details, but my luck is tragic. Case in point--there's a guy who came up with a method of measuring "luck"--basically you count pots with one stack and blinds paid with another stack (subtly, of course). The optimum ratio is different for everyone--mine is 0.8 pots per blind paid--at this ratio, if the game is good, I can make a decent profit. You can also use this to measure the game--if you are up at, say, 1.1 and still stuck, the game is bad and you should leave. Whereas if you're ahead but only at 0.7, the game is great, and you should stay because your luck should improve.

What has my number been for the last 100 hours? 0.4. That's right, I'm winning half as many pots as normal. Now, you can argue that winning pots isn't how you make money--you dont' need to go there, I agree 100%. But you can't make money without winning at least enough pots to pay for your blinds, right?

OK, so what? Everyone gets lucky; everyone gets unlucky. But I am a human being, and my patience is limited. I can weather bad runs for 8-20-50-even 100 hours. But 400? I think it's starting to seriously damage my play. I'm starting to lose value betting opportunities, and I tend to fold too much. I will fold marginal hands rather than play them, rather uncritically, because I'm afraid of wasting yet more money. I'm starting to check and call more than betting and raising. I give up my blinds without a fight, encouraging people to steal from me.

I'm becoming weak-tight, and it sucks. And if I play this way at the Hideaway, I'm complete toast.

How do I break out of this disastrous slump? I've already taken some steps.

1) Strictly limited playing time--no more than 8 hours in a day, no more than 16 in a week. There is only one exception--if I am absolutely crushing a game, I will stay as long as the game is good and I have no other obligations. This, of course, hasn't happened yet. But this prevents the sinking feeling of hopelessness that always strikes me around the 8th-9th hour and causes me to hit that "Threshold of Misery" that Caro likes to talk about.

2) Build the bankroll from the outside, now that I can. I paid some bills and gathered up some cash, so now I don't feel like a bad run of cards over 8 hours is going to ruin me financially. This builds risk-taking confidence, which is necessary to drain money from loose-aggressive types.

3) Stop measuring my bad luck. Now that I've established that I've been unlucky, and not playing horribly (though not as good as I should), it's time to move on.

4) Return to basics. Even though I've developed my poker "soft skills" that let me adjust hand values for different situations, I fear that I have given up a lot of cash by not being aggressive up front. In games at the Hideaway, you need to get the money in early and keep pounding as long as you're sure you're ahead, and then try to draw a bluff at the end with a check. This means that I need to go back to the strategy I learned more-or-less from Turbo Texas Hold 'em. That doesn't mean I won't add skills I've learned in the last year when appropriate, it's just that I need to make sure I got the basics right first.

5) Be fearless. Pound away when I think I might have the best of it, rather than demanding that I be absolutely sure I have the nuts.

So, now that I've basically thought out loud for an hour, what do you all think? How have you dealt with running bad? How did you keep your sanity and your skills intact so you could avoid going broke and succeed once the luck returned?


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[info]bastard
2003-08-28 08:29 am UTC (link)
$8kpa isn't a bad haul, would sit you neatly in the semipro bracket.

You may want to consider simply taking a break from the game for a little while?

Alternatively if youre a recreational/hobbieist player you could do worse than to switch to playing more tournaments than ring games for a while, where you have the nice advantage of having a game enforced stop-loss.

In addition I don't think anyone would criticise you for moving up limits after beating one at the fabled 1BB/h for a thousand hours. Although if there was a limit between 4-8 and 10-20 I would probably have jumped to that first. Knowing if and when to step down again is the key, of course.

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[info]cpk
2003-08-28 11:50 am UTC (link)
There isn't really a limit between 4-8 and 10-20 except for 4-8 with full kill, which is actually where I already was playing most of those 1000 hours. That particular game has "gone bad," itself, and now is regularly infested with 4-5 of the best players in Snohomish County. There's exactly one regular 6-12 game between Federal Way and Everett, and it is usually just people waiting for 12-24. There's also one 8-16, but it's at the same place and the same story applies.

I forgot to mention that I've already taken a long break--about 6 months. Since coming back, I've played about 35 hours, give or take. I was just looking for ideas to help shake the dust off.

Maybe I should step back down for a while.


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[info]doooook
2003-08-28 08:53 am UTC (link)
I've had good runs and bad. When the shit hits the fan I take some time off. I'm never afraid of not playing poker so if a couple of weeks go by without me sitting I might have the bug to go and play, but I can live without it.

If you count Vancouver, BC as part of the Pacific Northwest, then head up there and play in the 10-20 at the Great Canadian Casino in the Holliday Inn on Broadway. There is a regular 10-20 and a 10-20 with a full kill and the rake is $3 CDN (essentially $2 US) ... the players are the worst I have ever seen in a casino. True they are maniacs so you have to be lucky if your bankroll is very limited ... but there is a lot of money to be had there.

I also here that there is a good 6-12 Omaha game in China town though I won't be able to check it out until I'm back in Vancouver in December.

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[info]stannius
2003-08-28 09:13 am UTC (link)
I've heard abouyt the Holiday Inn game in Vancouver too. Never been myself but it certainly has a reputation as a very soft game.

I am also on a prolonged losing streak. I am more of a recreational player, but I haven't finished a poker session in the black in a year. So right now I am on sabattical until I get off my permanent tilt and get the stability I need to play with discipline.

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[info]plizak
2003-08-28 10:32 am UTC (link)
You haven't won a session in a year? Sounds like you need to read up some more and reavaluate your game.

Sorry to be blunt.

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[info]stannius
2003-08-28 10:33 am UTC (link)
Hence the sabbatical!

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[info]cpk
2003-08-28 11:53 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I've played in that game up there. I lost $300 in one pot one that night because I had a straight agasinst a set and put myself all-in on the turn. Unlimited heads-up raising when you have the nuts rules--until you no longer have the nuts. :)

It's a little bit difficult for me to get up there these days, but I might come give it a try.

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[info]bastard
2003-08-28 12:34 pm UTC (link)
surely that only applies once all the cards are dealt? :)

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[info]cpk
2003-08-28 01:48 pm UTC (link)
In that case, not really, because I have the best of it by far, 3.6:1, so every bet I put in returns $72, over time. And as long as she's giving action, I should give action in return, because it's unlikely I'm going to get this action should she miss.

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[info]bbkahuna
2003-08-28 01:47 pm UTC (link)
Yo.

The Hideaway game is pretty jiggy sometimes depending on when you show up. I think game selection is critical here, what you are saying about the NW game being tough is entirely true of the main games both at Hideaway and Kenmore. If I am offered a seat in the maingame, I'll almost always asked to be recycled even if it means another 45 minute wait, because honestly, there is very little money to be made there. It always ends up being six people exchanging blinds and small pots, while a steady stream of people who like the sound of "want to move to the main game" come in, donate their chips, and get up again. I can't really stress how awful the main game is at Hideaway, and while I haven't been to Kenmore in quite sometime (both because their dealers suck, and because with the reduction to two tables, the waitlist is often gigantic) I'm sure it's tougher there too.

Most of my playing lately has been relegated to online because the games are always significantly better than at Hideaway. Also, when I get stuck, I have a tendency to play more (and worse hands). It's a lot easier for me to close a poker table window on my computer than to get out of a chair at the Hideaway.

All that said, all I can say is force yourself to tighten up hardcore, but when you get a flop, go after it with both barrels blazing. This is especially true online where everyone seems to be be of some nouveau-Sklansky student raising their flush and straight draws. I've started automatically coming over the top again if it is moderately reasonable on a flop that someone is raising a draw. This also will eventually punish and pull bets from the middle-pair, ace kicker players who are trying to suck out with their lower pairs. The one exception to tightening up pre-flop is that you should start raising Ace/Queen and Ace/Jack especially if you there are no callers in front of you, if you aren't already. Both at Hideaway and at Kenmore there seems to be a preponderance of the absurd "I'll call if I have an ace" and even more absurd "I'll call any pre-flop amount with A-X suited" attitude, and you'll win a decent amount on the merits of your kicker.

Finally, both online and at Hideaway, people are significantly more loose, and try to be much trickier. To this end, I've almost entirely stopped bluff or value betting unless I'm against a particularly tricky player, or unless I've played so tight for three hours that it's obvious my bets have garnered some rare respect (this is a lot more applicable at Hideaway than online since players tend to rotate so quickly online, and they don't make the visual assosciation of your face to tight player. Also, I've stopped slow-playing monster hands, because I've found that people are so used to pseudo-tricky slow-playing now that they expect the only hand you might bet would be a top pair or over pair. You can flop top set and get a ton of action on the turn simply by playing it hard the whole way.

Hideaway good players feast on weak-tight players, and actually, playing weak-tight there just encourages them. One good Hideaway player I know says he'll often draw a poor pair to try and make two-pair or trips if he's short-handed with such a player, just so that he can catch at some point and frusturate his play.

Finally, it'd be interesting to know who you are, I play a decent bit at both Hideaway and Kenmore. I'm sure we've played together at some point (and your personal journal which I skimmed to see if you had a pic so I could see if I recognized you was interesting anyhow). I'm adding you to the friends list, maybe we'll run into each other sometime.

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[info]cpk
2003-08-28 09:01 pm UTC (link)
I don't recognize you, but if you've played regularly at both places, there's no doubt you've sat at the same table with me.

I don't think I need to tighten up overall. Playing loose hasn't been my problem; I still play very few hands overall.

Thanks for your other tips--I'll just have to keep working on it.

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[info]savemyskin
2003-08-29 03:09 pm UTC (link)
"How have you dealt with running bad? How did you keep your sanity and your skills intact so you could avoid going broke and succeed once the luck returned?"

If you lose your skills when you are running bad, this is something you definitely want to try to defeat. Everybody tilts a little bit under the right conditions, but if a few bad beats make you play bad consistently, you're going to have a serious problem. it's a pretty slippery slope, i think. a few bad beats lead to bad play which leads to losing more which makes the tilt worse. we've all seen it. it's not pretty. don't let it happen to you. if you take a couple of harsh beats, take a walk around the room. grab a drink of water. try to refocus on your game when you get back. if you're still thinking about the beats you took an hour ago and not thinking about the hand you're playing, it's time to go home. if you're a winning player in the game you're playing, that knowledge should be all you need to keep your sanity. if you play right, you will win money over the long run. but if you can't deal with losing nights and losing weeks and losing months, you won't.

you might also want to try mixing up your game a little. especially preflop. raise that T9s after 4 limpers in the cut-off. just limp with those kings on the button. sometimes that helps to get me out of the rut.

i don't like your measure of luck. first of all, there's no reason to be keeping track of your luck. keep track of what the guy in the 4 seat does when he has the nuts or what the crazy woman next to you does when she has a flush draw. keeping track of your luck can only serve to depress you when you're running unlucky. also, you're focusing on how many pots you're winning. as you say later on in your post, always focus on how much money you're winning, not haw many pots you're dragging. if you're a good, tight player, you SHOULD be winning fewer pots than the maniacs.

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[info]cpk
2003-08-29 06:54 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for your comments.

1) I don't typically tilt. Only if extremely frustrated, and then only for a hand or two. If I can't control it, I just leave. I don't worry about it--remember Caro's Law of Least Tilt. As time goes by I tilt even less.

What does happen when I'm running bad is that I start to play way more weakly. I don't raise as much, I rarely three-bet, and so on and so forth. It's like anti-tilt. I think I've worked out my weaknesses there, though.

2) The "luck measure" is not just a measure of luck, but of game quality. Normally, the variation will not be large from my 0.8 pots/blind, at least not for large periods of time.

However, if I'm winning 1 pot/blind, but still not making any money, either I'm playing poorly or the game is bad, so I should stop playing. Likewise, if I'm winning only 0.6 pots/blind, but still ahead or about even, I'm probably playing well, and/or the game is good, so I should continue to play. Even when it's at 0.8, it's still useful--game quality and/or play quality shoudl relate exactly to how far I'm ahead or behind.

The only weakness in the approach is that (a) you're right, bad "luck" (ie, short-term exaggerations in variance) just tends to depress me, and (b) if the game is bad, you should leave regardless of how well you're playing. Fortunately, I have other ways to tell if a game is bad.

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[info]savemyskin
2003-08-29 10:27 pm UTC (link)
i still don't think the pots/blind method you're using is very good. let's say you lose a huge pot when a miracle card hits or you suck out and drag a big pot you didn't have any business being in. as you know, one pot like this can make the difference between a winning night and a losing night. but it's not going to change your "pots/blind" very much at all. so does this one bad beat or suck out by you make the difference between 'playing well' or 'playing poorly?'

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[info]cpk
2003-08-29 11:12 pm UTC (link)
These two cases are statistical outliers. Honestly, how often does it happen that a miracle card causes you to lose 10 big bets in one pot, or another miracle card causes you to win 70? In my experience, it's once in every 15 hours of play--if that often.

And at any rate, if a bizarre outlier skews your results, it's easy enough to factor that one pot out of your calculations. Given a long enough session, though, even that is not necessary.

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Running bad
(Anonymous)
2003-12-27 05:03 pm UTC (link)
I had the session from hell a couple days ago. It seemed like every other river screwed me, and none of my draws came through, and the rare times I did get help post flop, I was drawing dead anyway.

Lost $480 at 2-4 and 1-2
Yup, I managed to blow between 120 and 240 big bets in one day's play.

Why? www.poker-penguin.blogspot.com, search for the words "anally raped by lady luck" I faithfully listed all the beat I took.

I just kept reminding myself that bad beats are good for me. Whenever my opponents need a lucky break to beat me, I am making the right plays.

Long term, all you can hope for is to get as much money in the pot when you're the favourite as possible.

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