Amber ([info]police_my_lips) wrote in [info]feminist,
@ 2005-12-29 10:12:00
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feminists of lj:

what's your stance on chivalry?

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[info]pretzelsalt
2005-12-29 06:15 pm UTC (link)
fuck it.

being nice to folks in your general vicinity by not slamming doors in their faces just seems like a decent way to be.

Genitalia and masked sexual conquests should not enter into it.

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(no subject) - [info]dorktastic, 2005-12-29 08:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]azikale, 2005-12-29 09:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]syllabled, 2005-12-30 02:10 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]fancymcsnazsnaz, 2005-12-30 02:50 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sabonasi, 2005-12-30 04:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]laughingimp, 2006-01-01 10:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sabonasi, 2006-01-02 01:53 am UTC (Expand)

[info]purpledusk
2005-12-29 06:16 pm UTC (link)
If someone chooses to do something for me because it's polite then I think that's great. If someone chooses to do something for me because I am female then I think that's bullshit.

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(no subject) - [info]stealyourself, 2005-12-30 05:29 am UTC (Expand)

[info]xxrosencrantzxx
2005-12-29 06:16 pm UTC (link)
Depends. I'm all for common courtesy and will walk through a door someone holds open for me or whatever, but I don't like when someone does something 'chivalrous' for me that they wouldn't also do for a man.

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the celery stalks at midnight - [info]alaiyo, 2005-12-29 07:04 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: the celery stalks at midnight - [info]the_midgetqueen, 2005-12-29 07:47 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: the celery stalks at midnight - [info]xxrosencrantzxx, 2005-12-29 07:54 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]bodlon
2005-12-29 06:17 pm UTC (link)
As in Medieval rules governing courtly behavior?

They were historically practical as in they helped keep the knights in line and allowed for all manner of expression during a period in which arranged marriages were the norm. As far as gender equity goes, they're far from ideal.

If this is not what you mean, please clarify.

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(no subject) - [info]likeawoman, 2005-12-30 01:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bodlon, 2005-12-30 02:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]likeawoman, 2005-12-30 03:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bodlon, 2005-12-30 03:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]likeawoman, 2005-12-30 03:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bodlon, 2005-12-30 03:59 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]goodlookinout
2005-12-29 06:18 pm UTC (link)
defined as what exactly?

courteous and kind behavior are always nice and desirable. when said behavior is directed mainly towards women or practiced SOLELY because of someone's gender, then certain ideas go along with it that I'm not too fond of.

what's YOUR stance on it?

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(no subject) - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-29 06:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]police_my_lips, 2005-12-29 06:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]local_weather, 2005-12-29 07:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]smrtblnddiver, 2005-12-29 08:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]local_weather, 2005-12-29 08:54 pm UTC (Expand)
off topic - [info]adrinna, 2005-12-29 09:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]skate97, 2006-01-05 03:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-29 07:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]xoynotsmilexo, 2005-12-29 07:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-29 08:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jeun, 2005-12-31 08:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]police_my_lips, 2005-12-29 06:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]goodlookinout, 2005-12-30 03:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]skate97, 2006-01-05 03:09 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sweetsatingirl
2005-12-29 06:39 pm UTC (link)
Call me old fashioned but....I feel honored when Shay:

- opens doors for me
- brings me flowers
- puts her hand out to shield me when we cross the street
- rises when I leave the table to go to the ladies room
- brings me breakfast in bed
- orders my drink (and sometimes dinner) when we go out (well this is a dual control thing which I just love)

....but thats just me! YMMV

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(no subject) - [info]savestheworld, 2005-12-29 09:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]azikale, 2005-12-29 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sweetsatingirl, 2005-12-29 09:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]krazyhippie, 2005-12-30 05:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sweetsatingirl, 2005-12-30 12:38 pm UTC (Expand)
comment deleted and reposted (spelling errors)
[info]alaiyo
2005-12-29 06:40 pm UTC (link)
"Chivalry's not dead? Let's slay it."
I often hear people say, "Ha ha, chivalry's not dead. Awww." Grrr.

If men really want to assist women, how about joining the fight for equal wages and political power? How about working for the maintenance of reproductive rights? How about boycotting the sexist, Anglo-centric, anti-fat, media?
(Nota bene: I know that many men already do these things. I'm just developing an argument, y'all.)
Through chivalry, opening the doors to cars and buildings for women and pulling out their chairs signifies that men want to help women. So, if by chivalry men demonstrate that they want to aid women, fine; do something that actually helps. (Nota bene: I know that men do things to help women, c.f. Men Against Rape, Dads for Daughters. Just developing the argument.)

Also, by holding that women are more fragile and delicate than men and also that women are more virtuous and trusting (hello, gender roles), chivalry cripples women: it puts them on a pedestal and renders them in need of protection from the cruel wiles of the worldly outside. Lastly, by saying that women are "more (fill in the blank)" than men are, chivalry doesn't help equality between the sexes that we feminists work for.

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Re: comment deleted and reposted (spelling errors) - [info]police_my_lips, 2005-12-29 06:42 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: comment deleted and reposted (spelling errors) - [info]subordinate, 2005-12-29 10:20 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: comment deleted and reposted (spelling errors) - [info]jaralith, 2006-01-02 06:09 am UTC (Expand)
Not at all! - [info]alaiyo, 2006-01-02 07:29 pm UTC (Expand)
In addition
[info]alaiyo
2005-12-29 06:53 pm UTC (link)
There existed a "code of chivalry" back in the day that upper-class men had to follow. Shit about valiance in battle and loyalty to the king and to G-d.. So by gender roles, chivalry limited male behavior too.

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[info]trinityva
2005-12-29 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Being nice is good.
Being friendly is good.
Being helpful is good.
Being polite is good.

Bullshit codes about how to treat people based on gender? Not so good.

"Needing" bullshit codes about how to treat people based on gender to remind you to be nice, friendly, helpful, and polite to women? Fucked the hell up.

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(no subject) - [info]crafting_change, 2005-12-29 07:23 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sabonasi, 2005-12-29 09:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-29 10:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sabonasi, 2005-12-29 11:42 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-30 04:06 am UTC (Expand)

[info]foibey
2005-12-29 07:29 pm UTC (link)
What? The set of customs of social etiquette that was the embodiment of a patriarchal feudal values? Screw that.

Being considerate to those around you is a good thing. Being male and being nice to women because you got brought up to believe they were weaker beings than yourself and needed your powerful self to open doors for them sucks loads.

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[info]the_midgetqueen
2005-12-29 07:52 pm UTC (link)
it should die. now, "do for others as you'd have them do for you"... *that* is what i'd love to see a lot more often.

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[info]leitch71
2005-12-29 07:54 pm UTC (link)
Chivalry is not invited to my pizza party.

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(no subject) - [info]sodalisque, 2005-12-29 10:36 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]rosalynmoon
2005-12-29 08:15 pm UTC (link)
I like my b/f giving me flowers as much as I like doing it for him. I hold open the doors for people to be courteous and I appreciate the same in return. Politeness, niceness, heck even being "romantic" is wonderful so long as you're not set a certain "role" to play based on your gender! That's my view =)

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(no subject) - [info]aliceglamc, 2005-12-29 09:42 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]so_gracefully
2005-12-29 08:19 pm UTC (link)
it's all in the intention, as pretty much everyone has said. my boyfriend opens doors for me, and tries to shield me from cars or other dangerous things, but it isn't because he thinks i'm weak and can't do it myself, it's because he is concerned for my comfort and safety. i try to do the same for him, and i try to do the same for every other person who goes through a doorway at the same time as me, etc.

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(no subject) - [info]eard_stapa, 2005-12-30 07:04 am UTC (Expand)

[info]night101owl
2005-12-29 08:19 pm UTC (link)
I'll defer a bit to Miss Manners: Chivalric etiquette was an improvement on the previous system of "Ladies never." Nevertheless, symbolically declaring women too superior to run the everyday world had an amazingly similar effect to declaring them too inferior. And by the way, chivalry originally applied only to upper-class ladies, and while a version of it was extended to the middle class in the nineteenth century, it never inspired anyone to defer to the lower classes.

With that in mind, I think it's important to note that "chivalry" was not only sexist, but also classist. It never existed in the way some people today like to claim it did, and ought to be declared thoroughly dead, hopefully replaced by the idea that all people ought to treat each other with respect.

The only place chivalry seems to come up these days is by people making the argument that feminism is BAD because it requires people to be mean to men who hold doors open to women. Clearly, this is the most pressing and foremost issue for moden feminism.

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(no subject) - [info]truckers_child, 2005-12-29 09:50 pm UTC (Expand)
Inherent classism: good point - [info]alaiyo, 2005-12-29 11:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]goodlookinout, 2005-12-30 03:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-30 04:07 am UTC (Expand)

[info]gonzaloguerrero
2005-12-29 08:20 pm UTC (link)
I love being chivalrous.

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(no subject) - foursixths, 2005-12-30 05:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gonzaloguerrero, 2005-12-30 10:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - foursixths, 2005-12-30 10:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gonzaloguerrero, 2005-12-31 04:23 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]idemandjustice
2005-12-29 08:21 pm UTC (link)
Fun in role-playing games. In real life, it tends to be an excuse for men to be chauvinistic.

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(no subject) - [info]sabonasi, 2005-12-29 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]idemandjustice, 2005-12-30 01:31 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sabonasi
2005-12-29 09:06 pm UTC (link)
It's great...provided it's not gender-based.

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[info]agentmichi
2005-12-29 09:13 pm UTC (link)
It really depends on the person, intention, and situation. Sometimes chivalry is just a matter of being polite or romantic.

I don't think most who are "in favor" of chivalry are proponents of the old time European variety of knights and ladies. Well, except if you are into historical reinactments or role playing. *shrugs*

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[info]deeply_confused
2005-12-29 09:21 pm UTC (link)
I'm a chick. Am I allowed to be chivalrous?

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(no subject) - [info]tekanji, 2005-12-30 12:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eard_stapa, 2005-12-30 07:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]sabonasi, 2005-12-30 04:15 pm UTC (Expand)
My stance?
[info]stratyllis
2005-12-29 09:32 pm UTC (link)
Standing on it's grave. Chivalry is dead.

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[info]madamjolie
2005-12-29 09:37 pm UTC (link)
Being polite and kind is valued.

Being treated differently because of my gender is not.

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[info]subordinate
2005-12-29 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Chilvary does not equal politeness. Therefore, adding some kind of disclaimer to a comment such as "I commend politeness, but not politeness based on gender codes" doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, to me. What's polite about chilvary? What's polite about treating women like they are children, like they need to be taken care of, like their gender is the most important thing that marks them anyway? Bleh. Bleh on that.

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(no subject) - [info]leitch71, 2005-12-29 10:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]trinityva, 2005-12-29 11:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]veile, 2006-01-02 08:53 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]lavendertook
2005-12-29 10:47 pm UTC (link)
Fully armored. Shield up. Sword at ready.

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(no subject) - [info]sabonasi, 2005-12-30 04:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lavendertook, 2005-12-30 07:39 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sodalisque
2005-12-30 01:07 am UTC (link)
I agree with what people have said above concerning chivalry-- I love manners, but not if they're used for the sake of my gender.

However, somehow it still pisses me off when someone DOESN'T pick up the door when it's obviously very hard for me (oftentimes I have to walk the school halls with a portfolio/canvas/big paint kit in tow.) Of course, it's more common among my age group... But it still makes me feel like shit.

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(no subject) - [info]veile, 2006-01-02 08:57 pm UTC (Expand)

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