we are the change we've been waiting for ([info]dots) wrote in [info]fanficrants,
@ 2005-11-28 17:58:00
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Current mood: blah

Thoughts on "Don't Like, Don't Read"
Okay, so we all agree that "don't like it, don't read it" is a horrible fangirl defense and all that, right? I mean, how can you tell if you're going to like a fic unless you read it? Right?

Well, what if the fic is clearly labeled?

I'm tired of getting people dissing me for stories that were clearly labeled as such. In fact I'm getting rather tired of people throwing conniptions about labeled fics.

Look, most fics are labeled with pairing or warnings in some way. Even if it's something stupid, like "th sevn seels of tokyo all have a slumbr party!!! lol!! i wrote this on a sugr high", there's still a warning at the end of that. No, I don't like sugar-high-rabid fics either. But if you can tell it was written on one, why do you even click on the story if you don't have any interest in it?

Similarly:

-Why do you throw fits about certain noncanon pairings when the fic is labeled as having them?
-Why do you throw fits about characters involved when it's indicated that they are?
-Why do you have conniptions over yaoi or yuri when the fic is labeled as having them?
-Why do you get upset over incest fics when they're labeled as incest?
-Why do you throw fits about certain genres, say angst/fluff/AU, when you don't like them in the first place and the fics are labeled as such?

Certainly, I don't read incest, and I'm picky with my yaoi and yuri. But it a fic is labeled as having a pairing I don't like, I'll do one of two things:
1) If the fic is one I'm reading for something else, I'll ignore the pairing. I'm not reading it for the pairing that sets me off anyway, right? So why should it matter?
2) I won't read the fic.

While "don't like, don't read" really doesn't make sense a lot of the time people throw it around, it's a decent philosophy to live by. You don't like porn? You don't like angst? You don't like Fuuma/Kamui or Jayne/River or Swyer/Kate or Harry/Hermione? Then why are you reading the fic if it's labeled as having that?


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[info]taiga_ameca
2005-11-29 01:01 am UTC (link)
Word. "Don't like, don't read" is a good excuse... But it does have it's limits. (Or should I rather say: "It's a shitty excuse, but it does have it's exceptions"?)

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[info]catfight
2005-11-29 01:05 am UTC (link)
You are a beacon of sanity in the middle of a fucking insane internet, ma'am. :')

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[info]pearl_gemstone
2005-11-29 01:10 am UTC (link)
Exactly!!

Half of the reviews I get for any of my Harry/Hermione stories tell me I'm delusional and have the wrong pairing. I'm not blind for goshsakes, but I happen to like the pairing.

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[info]iggy04
2005-11-29 01:13 am UTC (link)
Same! Woot for Harry and Hermione! (the pair I thought was going to work back in CoS, the movie)

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[info]dracobolt
2005-11-29 02:07 am UTC (link)
Links to your stories, please? I happen to like the pairing, too.

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[info]pearl_gemstone
2005-11-29 03:46 am UTC (link)
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2406816/1/

(It's pre-sixth book, so it does not take into account anything that happens in HBP. Looking back, I'm a bit embarassed about it. Some sentences are awkward, but for the most part the one-shot isn't too gramatically horrifying.)

I wrote another, but looking at that, well, I doubt it'd appeal to those looking for canon. At the time it seemed like it, but looking back, Harry is OOC.

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[info]almightyhat
2005-11-29 01:12 am UTC (link)
If it's labelled, 'Don't Like, Don't Read' works fine. It's when it's not labelled that we run into problems. DL,DR doesn't work if there's, say, incest in your fic and you don't warn. Even if it's a plot twist you don't want to give away, you can say-- either in the summary or an author's note-- 'This story deals with mature themes that may be triggering or offensive to some.'

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[info]dots
2005-11-29 01:16 am UTC (link)
If it's not labeled, I understand completely. It's when it is labeled that it gets to me, possibly because I've labeled several of my fics as yaoi/shounen-ai/yuri/shoujo-ai/incest/mature themes/etc. and still gotten people all upset over the things I wrote because they just don't like them.

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[info]luxshine
2005-11-29 02:06 am UTC (link)
My fandom seems to have a deeply ingrained hate for pairing warnings on the archives, where pairings can include underage participants and incest so one usually doesn't know what pairing one will get until one reads the story. Even so, if I keep reading after the first five paragraphs -where one usually can tell what the pairing will be- then if I get squicked it's my fault, and not the writer because I kept reading.

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[info]ciaan
2005-11-29 05:40 am UTC (link)
I've used the "may be offensive or disturbing to some" disclaimer myself (indeed, in order to not give away all of the plot in the summary), but honestly, it's not very helpful to any individual person who's trying to decide whether to read the fic. I mean, the range of stuff that could be meant by such a phrase is just... vast. I don't think any author can really use the "but I warned you" defense if they didn't actually warn. But they can use the "don't expect the world to wrap you in soft cotton to keep all the sharp bits out, it's not like I burned your house down" defense.

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[info]researchotaku
2005-11-29 06:04 am UTC (link)
I once wrote a disclaimer saying that "Warning: babies are killed. Not for the faint hearted."

A reviewer wrote "Are you saying that people who don't want to read about babies getting killed have faint hearts?"

Well, some people really get disturbed by the murder of innocent babies and the term "faint hearted" does refer to someone who is disturbed by something. So, I guess yeah, I am?

You just can't win.



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[info]agilebrit
2005-11-29 01:14 am UTC (link)
A most excellent question...

Sometimes, in a fit of masochism, I go looking for fic to spork, just because I'm in the mood for snerking at something. But if I'm reading for entertainment, I'll go looking for whatever floats my boat, and I won't bust an author's chops for writing what I don't want to read. It's their fic, after all.

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[info]juju_bean
2005-11-29 01:21 am UTC (link)
On the first part of the rant, I quite agree. You do have to actually read it before you can tell if you hate it. Saying you hate something when you've never read it is a bit dumb to me.

Unless of course, you know you would hate to read it, in which case you'd just bypass the link. Which brings me to the second part of your rant, which I must also give a "word" to.

Way back when I use to have a lot of free time on my hands, I once started an anti-Sailor Moon website (I'm a fan of the show), just to see what kind of people would show up. Needless to say, every comment ever left in the guestbook were made by angry Sailor Moon fans. Some people just like to look for a reason to bitch hurting themselves.

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[info]clarify
2005-11-29 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Well, I can see why people get offended over 'anti-'things. I mean, people getting pissed off over anti-[tv show here] is just like people getting pissed off over anti-yaoi or anti-yuri or anti-het or etc. Their preferences are getting bashed, and it's not too surprising to see people get defensive about the stuff they like being attacked.

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[info]annwyd
2005-11-29 01:33 am UTC (link)
Well, sometimes it just gets exasperating to keep seeing, even in summaries, certain cliches or pairings or whatever. That's part of what communities like this are around for--so you can vent about things like that without leaving angry reviews on fic. But if a fic is clearly labeled as something you don't like and you still insist on leaving pissy reviews about the thing it was clearly labeled as...

...that's just dumb.

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[info]rianax
2005-11-29 01:35 am UTC (link)
If you are complaining about the pairing/topic/etc instead of how it is portrayed then yes you are a stupid person.

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[info]akusai
2005-11-29 01:36 am UTC (link)
I agree with bot you and juju_bean. Some people seem to take a look at the summary, see something they don't like and go to bitch at the author for writing thet awful thing.

What we need is to start implementing warnings for character rape, plots that don't make any sense and abuse of language.

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[info]megalomaniageek
2005-11-29 01:55 am UTC (link)
Word to you. I also wonder about Sue-haters reading fics where the summary indicates a really obvious Mary Sue. I can only think of three reasons:
1. They're bitches looking for a fic to spork on the internet
2. They're stupid, or at least have absolutely no pattern recognition
3. They're masochistic

Related to a character? Mysterious background? Canon/OC? Uber-powerful and gorgeous? Stellar name? Two or more and you should just avoid it if Sues piss you off so much. They might not be Sues 100% of the time but honestly, there are warning signs.

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[info]rikoshi
2005-11-29 02:03 am UTC (link)
You don't like Fuuma/Kamui or Jayne/River or Swyer/Kate or Harry/Hermione? Then why are you reading the fic if it's labeled as having that?

You can write whatever the hell you want, just so long as you don't come up with some dumb, mangled "pairing name" that makes you sound like a moron.

<3

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[info]cassandrathevil
2005-11-29 02:06 am UTC (link)
I think some people just go LOOKING for fics to flame. I can't say I have, but, I mean, why ELSE would people completely ignore any and all warnings?

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[info]evil_rem
2005-11-29 02:10 am UTC (link)
Idiots see a paring they don't like, and think "OHMIGOD I DONt liek this paiing cuz it's STOOPID IM GUNNA FLAME IT!!!1". My own sister does this. I think people just like to have something to complain about.

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[info]tubaboy81
2005-11-29 02:23 am UTC (link)
Agreed -- if it's labeled as something you don't like, don't read it and then act surprised.

However, there are certain things that I reserve the right to be creeped out by the mere existence of. Kaylee/Simon/River leaps to mind, as does Biblical slash.

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[info]sarah_frost
2005-11-29 02:43 am UTC (link)
Very true, but it's fair enough to rant about something that's clearly badly done even if you were a masochist to go into the Pit of Voles in the first place--after all, if not for those sort of rants this comm would be much smaller. There's nothing wrong with reading the badfic and providing constructive criticism, either, or even just enjoying the badfic as comically disturbing. Ranting about something you just don't like personally and have been warned for is of course silly, but I don't mind questioning rants along the lines of "Why isn't there more of X or less of Y", provided they're not phrased as fannish entitlement.

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[info]eleventh_guard
2005-11-29 02:50 am UTC (link)
Well, what if the fic is clearly labeled?
Then complaining about the labeled thing is extremely stupid and asshole-ish, in my opinion. That's not to say that it can't be critiqued for poor handling, of course... saying "I don't think you portrayed X and Y as in-character in chapter 3 and this is why: (explanation)" is cool, but "ZOMG X/Y SUCKS" or "I'm shocked that anybody would even write X/Y!" is not.

I ignore any and all complaining that is of that nature. Luckily, there hasn't been much, since I'm meticulous about labeling (the only exception being one fic that had references to possible semi-non-con in it, but in-story that was just a rumor and never happened, so I didn't worry about it.) And if I think I might get complaints anyway, I leave a politer form of "This is the pairing. I labeled it. Feel free to leave concrit about the fic or the way the characters are written, but don't bitch about the fact that I wrote X/Y."

So far, I've only had a couple of complaints and they were minor - not flaming.

I will sometimes read fics with pairings I don't like - there aren't many, but there are a few - out of curiosity about something else in the fic, or because I like the author's other work and think s/he might be able to make the pairing work for me. However, if it doesn't work, I just quietly stop reading.

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[info]the_sweet
2005-11-29 06:09 am UTC (link)
When it is labeled, I take it with a pleasant nod and I thank the author and move on to greener pastures fics I want to read. However, I just got that "dl;dr" excuse from someone who used what I'm going to call fangirl Japanese (read: unnecessary use of Japanese; words that COULD be, and for all rights, SHOULD be translated into English, which is the language of the story) throughout her fic. Said author called it a "style" when it's not; she even later admitted that some people supposedly LIKE learning Japanese, showing off what they know, and forcing readers to skim back and forth between a glossary and the fic...

I wanted to roll my eyes. I'm a Japanese minor and a student of the language for over 10 years. I had that phase when I wanted to use Ohayou! and Jaa, mata! in my fics all the time, but when I realized they translated perfectly into English, I stopped seeing the point. It's especially useless in the fic I mentioned, because the author tends to use Japanese and then an English translation right after! What a waste of words! In that case, the dl;dr excuse is flippant and empty to me.

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[info]xparrot
2005-11-29 02:57 pm UTC (link)
...actually I know people who really do enjoy the learning-of-language aspect of fangirl Japanese. In fact I was one such reader myself, once upon a time; I had much fun going over the glossaries included with certain fics. So while I passed that phase myself sometime ago, it is valid to argue that some people like it.

(While I don't use it myself, I don't especially mind fangirl Japanese these days, either, as I've studied the language enough now to know it sans glossary. What makes me grit my teeth now is that most fangirl Japanese is wrong, writers who don't know their bokus from their ores and persist in switching between distal and direct with no regard to characterization. I don't mind them educating people in Japanese if that's their bent, but it'd be nice if it were a correct education!)

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[info]kyuuketsukirui
2005-12-01 02:02 am UTC (link)
The problem is that so much of fangirl Japanese is wrong, so it's only teaching you bad habits.

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[info]the_sweet
2005-12-07 05:54 am UTC (link)
There is a certain amount of truth to it. I guess what I was getting to was that fangirl Japanese is only appropriate where the words are really uncommon, have multiple possible English translations... this applies to your examples of boku/ore (and of course, the feminine/general [w]atashi).

But words like neko, inu, etc.? People who want to learn Japanese can do it elsewhere, on their own time. When I read a fic, I want it to be in a language I understand, without any sudden and jarring language switches that I *need* a glossary for. Knowing Japanese makes it easier for many of the words; I appreciate a glossary for more complicated phrases and in historical works, honorifics (as honorifics have changed since Inuyasha's time, for example).

But a long fic that had ALL sorts of fangirl Japanese peppered throughout, requiring you to scroll up! scroll down! scroll up! scroll down! would be a very tedious read.

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[info]kyuuketsukirui
2005-12-01 02:19 am UTC (link)
Word. I just had to click out of a fic that had been recced to me because of fangirl Japanese. It was Yu-Gi-Oh fandom and Yami was referring to Yugi as "his hikari" in narrative and "hikari" in direct address. This is not even a case of using a Japanese term that is used in the show/manga. In the Japanese, he calls Yugi aibou, which you could leave in Japanese, or translate as partner or something along those lines. But here what's happened is the author (or perhaps fandom in general as I have never read another Yu-Gi-Oh fic) has decided that because Yami means darkness, that he must therefore call Yugi hikari, meaning light. It's complete fanon and completely wrong and just argh! I had to click away after like three paragraphs.

This is why while there are a ton of manga I love, I just can't read English-language fanfic for manga or anime.

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[info]the_sweet
2005-12-01 08:43 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I hail from the Yu-Gi-Oh fandom too, so I see that a lot-- it's an immediate cue to click the Back button. Luckily, for my 'ships, you don't see that a lot (probably because Yugi usually isn't a main character in my 'ships!).

I mostly write fanfics... and read when something honestly intrigues me, or I get a rec from a friend. I have a select list of authors whose updates I watch, but other than that, you couldn't catch me browsing in the Yu-Gi-Oh section of FFnet unless I was asking for my eyes to bleed.

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[info]melata_fic
2005-11-29 07:22 am UTC (link)
Sometimes, though, the summary sounds good, but the story inside is a wee bit insane. Or worse.

Some people just have objections to the fic containing the characters etc in the first place. They may not have read the story.

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[info]lexin
2005-11-29 07:32 am UTC (link)
I'm tired of getting people dissing me for stories that were clearly labeled as such. In fact I'm getting rather tired of people throwing conniptions about labeled fics.

I'm so totally with you on this. Really. Why do waste time reading something they'll hate? I save my ire for stories which were wrongly labelled (actually, not all that many) and for stories which are accurately labelled but bad. Those keep me occupied, without clicking on stuff I know is going to be shit before I even start.

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[info]blunder_buss
2005-11-29 08:34 am UTC (link)
I do, in the most part, agree with you. I mean, people have the right to not like things and maybe bemoan them a little, but they need to deal.

This is the only part I have a problem with:

-Why do you throw fits about certain noncanon pairings when the fic is labeled as having them?

Non-canon pairings is fine. But many people have problems with pairings that make absolutely no sense or violate character canon, and the fic does nothing to justify it. Like Edward paired with Scar from FMA, or something.

Really bad pairings can be OOC or brutalize canon, and I think it's understandable if people are angry about that.

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[info]dots
2005-11-29 08:43 am UTC (link)
I understand if they're angry about them. Really. I can't stand some pairings myself, like Laguna/Squall. But if they don't like them and are reading/linking fics of them, I think it crosses the ridiculous line.

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[info]blunder_buss
2005-11-29 11:58 am UTC (link)
Oh, yeah, I totally agree with you there.

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[info]gypso_child
2005-11-30 09:38 pm UTC (link)
I worship your icon. It is teh glory.

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[info]nenya85
2005-11-29 11:08 pm UTC (link)
I read that as Ed from FMA and Scar from the Lion King (lol) No there's a non-canon pairing!

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[info]redcandle17
2005-11-30 08:22 pm UTC (link)
if you can tell it was written on one, why do you even click on the story if you don't have any interest in it?

I'd offer the soul of my firstborn to whomever could answer that one. I include the pairing in the summary of every fic I post at FFN and I still get reviews saying it was okay but they don't like that pairing. With the new FFN reply feature, I have to fight the urge not to write them a nasty reply.

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[info]sophia_helix
2005-11-30 08:30 pm UTC (link)
Two thoughts:

1. Labeling itself is an issue. In a fandom I was in five or six years back there was an enormous Usenet flamewar over freaking keywords (and lack thereof). So "why whine if it's labeled?", while being so rational I'm sort of boggled anyone has to SAY it, doesn't work for people who complain about inadequate or nonexistent labeling.

2. But that said, I don't see why "Don't like it, don't read it" is a lame excuse even if the story is so poorly labeled you have to actually read it to get to the part you want to be upset about. Because you...stop reading. Right there. At the part with the incest/medical torture/OOC pairing/whatever. And then you're no more "damaged" than you would be if you'd just seen the warning for whatever it is and never read it at all.

"But I wasted my time reading a bad story!" Yeah, well, the rest of the internet wasted their time reading the ensuing whiny flamewar over it.

Sorry, this isn't really directed at you; I've just gotten to the point where this debate pops up in EVERY fandom, and I am really tired of people taking offense at even having to notice that something they don't like exists. I know we're all here for escapist fantasy, not necessarily to broaden our horizons, but honestly. There is nothing so terrible that could occur in a fic that I would be scarred for life before I could shut that thing down.

Also? Stick to recs. Don't go in the Pit of Voles. Hang out in only like-minded places. It's not too hard to stay hiding in one's own personal fic-hole.

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[info]g_shadowslayer
2005-11-30 08:37 pm UTC (link)
Here from the daily snitch.

I use 'if you don't like this, don't read it' quite often. I also use warnings, because there are far too many weenies out there who will whine if adult fic isn't labelled for every little thing in it. I do not write fluffy fanfic, and it is all intended for adults. Therefore, the readers should be capable of using their own reason and exercise some personal responsibility to decide whether they want to read it or not.

My take on it is that if they run into something they don't like, or they find disturbing, stop there. That's what 'if you don't like it, don't read it' really means. You don't have to keep reading. No one is holding a gun to your head or beaming the fic directly into your brain. If it squicks you or disturbs you or upsets you, there's a nice shiny 'back' button right there. Just click on it, and the scary fic will go away.

It's the people who get disturbed by something and keep reading anyway that drive me batty. And the ones who know what something's going to be like in the first place, don't like that, and still read it.

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[info]gypso_child
2005-11-30 09:35 pm UTC (link)
via dailysnitch

Actually, I usually put on my stories: If it's not your cup of tea, go ahead and try it anyways; you might find you like it.

Good points. And yeah, I rather think the sole reason is because people like to be difficult. Stupid people. :p

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[info]mistressmarilyn
2005-12-02 09:07 am UTC (link)
I couldn't agree more. I get sick of this, too.

But unless the world suddenly goes through some dramatic shift, I'm sure it will continue. People think they have the right to invade one another lives and bedrooms and media and tell one another how to live, to judge each and every choice we make in life.

Is it any wonder they invade our fanfic and leave their snarky comments or spend time in their own circles reviling us and our choices of genre or pairing?

Every single thing I write is labeled with warnings, for the reasonable people like me who want to make choices, who may not want to read death fics or rape or whatever on any given day. And when it comes to the ranting and wanking and like nastiness, especially about the mpreg stuff I write, I just try to ignore it.

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