Jonathan Wrights ([info]lord_gribeau) wrote in [info]fanficrants,
@ 2005-10-11 18:11:00
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Males
I'm male. I love being male.

And I'm annoyed at parts of the female fan fiction population, especially the quasi-academic, use-big-word female crowd. I'm annoyed at females who put down men in discussions regarding fan fiction. I'm annoyed at the portrayal of men in fan fiction.

If you're going to discuss men, INVITE THEM TO THE TABLE. If you look through some of the conversations on the big meta and fic journals that discuss gender, slash, & reading habits of the fan fiction writing community, you frequently see a lot of women, females, girls. Rarely do you see any men. These women, you know who I mean, will talk and talk about men. And they'll subtlely bash my wonderful gender. They'll say that isn't it wonderful that women can identify with characters regardless of gender and men can't do that. Shove it female fans with your elitist feminine attitudes! Men can relate to female characters just as well as women can relate to male characters. Some men can. Some women can't. And your brother, husband, lover, gay male friend, father do not represent all males. Get a larger pool. Men can do romance. Straight men can watch two gay guys screwing on screen with out going all homophobic on people's asses. There are some wonderful anime shows with two guys in a relationship that have male audiences. Your female bashing of men as being uninterested in romance is hurtful to men because it reinforces negative stereotypes.

So stop your discriminating. Stop your talking about our gender without actually asking our opinions or getting us involved in those discussions. Stop putting down our gender in order to put yours up.

You'd think fan fiction writers and slash writers, would know better than to do this but it just isn't so. Learn and stop the playa hating male bashing that exists in too many fan fiction communities. We see you even if we're not saying it!

ETA: Seriously, though, gender stereotyping is wrong. Very true, [info]revelininsanity. I think I just needed to rant/vent for a while.



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[info]quettaser
2005-10-11 11:29 pm UTC (link)
Word. There really aren't enough vocal men in the fanfiction community. Luckily, my main fandom has many active men who are loud about gender equality in fiction and the fandom itself.

There's this double-standard beginning to emerge where the women writers are commiting all the sins that men writers did on the shows that drove most of us to fanfiction in the first place.

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[info]skyler_daemon
2005-10-11 11:29 pm UTC (link)
May this female appluad you for doing this. I know of a few male writers who can be just as good at writing and dealing with characters of both genders and frankly those type of writers get on my nerves as well.

They make my gender look so bad at times. >.

(Reply to this)


[info]sorakh28
2005-10-11 11:31 pm UTC (link)
Despite being a closet feminist, I applaud you for standing up to your fellow men. I also hate descrimination.

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(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2005-10-12 12:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nerdork, 2005-10-12 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2005-10-12 12:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nerdork, 2005-10-12 12:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2005-10-12 03:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]torquemadman, 2005-10-12 08:26 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2005-10-12 08:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]torquemadman, 2005-10-13 07:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2005-10-13 07:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]torquemadman, 2005-10-13 07:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blunder_buss, 2005-10-13 04:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]torquemadman, 2005-10-13 07:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lordlucan, 2005-11-12 06:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-11-14 04:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]herongale, 2005-10-12 05:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]nerdcakes, 2005-10-13 04:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rashaka, 2005-11-08 05:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-10-12 05:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]timeofchange, 2005-11-08 01:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-11-08 08:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]helensaysping, 2005-11-14 09:24 am UTC

[info]si1verr
2005-10-11 11:37 pm UTC (link)
You make some points, but it's complicated, right?

1. We don't see men? Hm, if they spoke up, we'd know they were there.

2. And your brother, husband, lover, gay male friend, father do not represent all males. Get a larger pool.

Er, how? and ... hell, if a writer really is drawing on brother, husband, lover, gay friends, and father ...why isn't that a decent representation?

3. I'd delicately like to point out that you're grouping "all" female fen and writers into one big blob - double standard much?

4. I've known a lot of men in my life. A lot of them WERE jerks. Why can't I represent that in faictionas well as noble types?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]shanaqui, 2005-10-11 11:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]si1verr, 2005-10-11 11:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]randomsome1, 2005-10-12 02:51 am UTC

[info]gal_montag
2005-10-11 11:37 pm UTC (link)
My question, where *are* y'all? Speak up, man! I've rarely seen a male fanficcer since I was deep into anime back in the day.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2005-10-12 01:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]gal_montag, 2005-10-12 02:03 am UTC

[info]hales731
2005-10-11 11:39 pm UTC (link)
Men can relate to female characters just as well as women can relate to male characters. Some men can. Some women can't.

Totally agreed. I find it's actually difficult for me at times to write a male character 'cause half the time I'm not sure how they'd react to a certain situation. As a female, I can't always get into a male's mind.

I've never come across the discrimination shpeal, but I have to say that I think it's ridiculous... =|

(Reply to this)


[info]our_innocence
2005-10-11 11:40 pm UTC (link)
My goodness, they do this? I mean, I knew some did, but I chalked it up to the idiot quota every fandom must have.

I spent a lot of time in male-dominated fandoms [at least from where I sat] like Star Wars and Sin City before diving headfirst into the HP fandom, so I suppose I don't have a clear view on things.

But you're absolutely right, and it kills me that we don't have more male writers, actually. I get tired of the whole "females do this better" thing [I'm a girl], because quite frankly, I haven't seen loads of improvement in their writings, due to their estrogen overdrive. :: sighs and offers cookies ::

On behalf of all the females who enjoy the company of the opposite gender, I'm sorry. :(

(Reply to this)


[info]meliadoul
2005-10-11 11:50 pm UTC (link)
I didn't realise that some female fic writers discriminate men. If anything a few of them descriminate against woman by turning the females characters into bitches or just killing them off while praising the male characters.

(Reply to this)

Counting down to wank. . .
[info]millyfan
2005-10-11 11:56 pm UTC (link)
5. . .4. . .

I've got the boobies, anyone got the popcorn?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]felinephoenix, 2005-10-12 12:13 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]millyfan, 2005-10-12 12:15 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]felinephoenix, 2005-10-12 12:26 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]drworm, 2005-10-12 12:29 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]chibikaijuu, 2005-10-12 12:40 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]felinephoenix, 2005-10-12 12:45 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]millyfan, 2005-10-12 12:57 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]kinneas, 2005-10-13 05:56 pm UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]thewhiteowl, 2005-10-12 08:53 pm UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]drworm, 2005-10-13 12:53 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]katiroth, 2005-10-12 12:26 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]mhari, 2005-10-12 12:36 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]millyfan, 2005-10-12 12:56 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]mhari, 2005-10-12 01:23 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]khym_chanur, 2005-10-13 03:17 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]millyfan, 2005-10-13 03:20 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]notrafficlights, 2005-10-13 04:26 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]lushdesolation, 2005-10-13 05:14 am UTC
Re: Counting down to wank. . . - [info]feygan, 2005-11-15 08:33 am UTC

[info]fencer_x
2005-10-12 12:04 am UTC (link)
There's probably a line by now, but what the heck:

Marry me?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2005-10-12 02:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fencer_x, 2005-10-12 02:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2005-10-12 03:05 am UTC

[info]shinran
2005-10-12 12:09 am UTC (link)
I can't comment because I haven't read the fanfics or the discussion that you talk about. Could you give me a link?

But, stereotyping sucks. You should really speak up, though (well, you did speak up here, but I mean, you know, to the face of the culprit). Hey, why don't you post your piece of mind as a girl and again as a guy and compare the reaction from them? You might find some interesting results. And those academic types can be anal so make sure to do your homework beforehand...gather a few journal articles that supports your position.

I'm a feminist, but my women's studies prof called me a 'humanist' (and she meant it as an insult) just because I said the patriarchal system sucks for both women and men. Oh well. I'm fine with being a humanist.

(Reply to this)


[info]raptorscribe
2005-10-12 12:09 am UTC (link)
Is this why most people at fan-fic discussion communities assume I'm a girl?

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(no subject) - [info]vampslayer04, 2005-10-12 12:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2005-10-12 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sodzilla, 2005-10-12 12:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beccastareyes, 2005-10-12 12:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lily_shrike, 2005-10-12 01:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]stace_s, 2005-10-12 01:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cereta, 2005-10-12 03:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lilykane, 2005-10-12 05:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiberwing, 2005-10-12 09:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]konitsu, 2005-10-12 10:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lyorn, 2005-10-12 02:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bell_witch, 2005-10-12 02:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-10-12 05:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]insteadofdeath, 2005-10-12 09:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]feygan, 2005-11-15 08:37 am UTC
Hmm.
[info]drworm
2005-10-12 12:21 am UTC (link)
What, you haven't been fawned over by female fans lately simply for being one of the rare males? Oh dear! *sarcasm*

I have a lot of hate for over-feminized males in fanfiction, which is one of the things female writers are frequently accused of. And, yeah, it does throw me when a fanfic includes such characterizations... but more often than not, they're simply very poor characterizations by often mediocre writers. I dunno, making it into a gender-stereotyping issue is so... weird. Saying one gender can write certain characterizations better than another is also weird.

And, y'know, I also have a lot of hate for feminists who think women are superior. And yet, this still just... makes me want to roll my eyes.

Stop your talking about our gender with out actually asking our opinions or getting us involved in those discussions.

Um... now, I admit that if there is a discussion going on about gender and writing fanfic, both sides need representation. But dude. It's not like men are a rarity, in real life or in culture. It's not like the male point-of-view so desperately lacks representation in the world. There seems to be a feeling (on MANY subjects, not just gender) that if you don't represent the whole group, you misrepresent them. The question shouldn't be "Are you writing such-and-such male character as a male?" but "Are you approximating his characterization and making him believable in relation to the canon portrayal?"

Fuck gender, people. BETTER CHARACTERIZATION. (Ooh, a new buzzword, it would seem.)

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Hmm. - [info]revelininsanity, 2005-10-12 02:34 am UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]torquemadman, 2005-10-12 08:32 am UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]bell_witch, 2005-10-12 02:20 pm UTC
Re: Hmm. - [info]feygan, 2005-11-15 08:44 am UTC

[info]sodzilla
2005-10-12 12:25 am UTC (link)
Let's see. I happen to believe that no, men don't generally like or write female characters as well as women do male ones. I base this on the fact that over two years of frequent discussion on a large (2500+ members at that time) forum dedicated to a particular fantasy series, there would always be far more bashing from men against female characters than from women against male ones. When the forum was polled, a majority of the men said they preferred male PoVs, and many even said that they wouldn't be likely to read a book which featured mostly or solely female PoV characters.

Also, in the field of SF and fantasy, I have come across exactly two male authors whom I think consistently write women as people, not as... women. (Well, three if you count a certain scriptwriter). Female authors generally do a lot better with male characters.

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(no subject) - [info]kutsuwamushi, 2005-10-12 01:44 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]story645, 2005-10-12 02:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bell_witch, 2005-10-12 02:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]story645, 2005-10-12 03:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]feygan, 2005-11-15 09:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]story645, 2005-11-15 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]feygan, 2005-11-15 10:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chanteur_dombre, 2006-03-07 02:15 pm UTC

[info]felinephoenix
2005-10-12 12:42 am UTC (link)
Just a thought here...like other people have brought up, if you want men to have larger voices in fandom, why don't you weigh in? I do agree with you that there is some male bashing in some corners of fandom (emphasis on some), but really, the reason that there's a lack of males voices is because they aren't speaking up. We could theorize all day long about why, but those are just the facts. There aren't a lot of male fanfic writers.

That said, I disagree with you that opposite-gender bashing is something only girls do. Men are just as bad when the tables are turned. Take gaming, for instance, which is a very male-oriented fandom. Almost every female gamer will tell you that she's been bashed and stereotyped by her male gamer counterparts. And much like men in fanfiction, female characters are horribly stereotyped and underrepresented. (Do I really need to provide examples?)

However, the opposite-sex bashing isn't going to stop unless men and women make fandom more inclusive. Stop whining about how all the mean girls are silencing you and just speak the hell up. I promise you, most of us girls aren't against having a guy's opinion around here.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]chibikaijuu, 2005-10-12 12:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]felinephoenix, 2005-10-12 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bell_witch, 2005-10-12 02:36 pm UTC

[info]yoshitsune
2005-10-12 01:05 am UTC (link)
Well, as an ardent feminist who happens to be a guy, I have to applaud this. I too have seen the "men can't identify with women as well as women can identify with men" thing, and it kinda pisses me off. I think both sides have their people who can write the opposite sex incredibly well and both sides have their people who couldn't write about the opposite sex to save their lives. (Sadly, the latter always seems to be more numerous.)

Sure, there are guys who can't write women to save their lives; on the other hand, the same is true of some women and writing guys. I don't see how writing weepy feminized bitch-boys is any better than writing boobtacular sexpot wish-fulfillment women.

As for why the rush to judgment: I think part of the problem is that you get a lot of asshole guys involved in fandom and it can lead people in the fandom to generalize. (And this is not to say you don't get asshole women too, it's just that the same amount makes a much smaller percentage; ten jerks is a much bigger percentage when you've got a total of fifteen guys in a fandom as opposed to, say, forty women.) It eventually gets to the point where some people just aren't willing to give the benefit of the doubt to new people, and immediately tar them with a generalization. Fortunately, it's not like EVERYONE does this - I know plenty of people who are perfectly willing to pronounce authors innocent until proven asshole.

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(no subject) - [info]carlanime, 2005-10-12 01:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]herongale, 2005-10-12 05:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]carlanime, 2005-10-12 06:03 am UTC

[info]somnambulicious
2005-10-12 01:07 am UTC (link)
If you look through some of the conversations on the big meta and fic journals that discuss gender, slash, reading habits of the fan fiction writing community, you frequently see a lot of women, females, girls. Rarely do you see any men.

Did the mean, nasty feminists come into your house and steal your keyboard after they detected your Y chromosome over the internet? Goddammit, I hate it when they do that.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mhari, 2005-10-12 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]somnambulicious, 2005-10-12 02:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mhari, 2005-10-12 03:10 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]somnambulicious, 2005-10-12 03:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mhari, 2005-10-12 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]photosinensis, 2005-11-08 06:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-08 02:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]spinifex, 2005-11-08 04:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-08 05:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]karenhealey, 2005-11-09 02:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thecityofdis, 2005-11-09 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mastercko, 2005-11-10 08:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukie1013, 2005-11-10 03:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mastercko, 2005-11-10 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-11 08:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mastercko, 2005-11-11 09:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]spinifex, 2005-11-11 08:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-11 08:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-11-14 04:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-14 05:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-11-14 05:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-14 05:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-11-14 05:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-14 05:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-11-14 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-14 05:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yukinoomoni, 2005-11-14 05:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]david_deacon, 2005-11-14 05:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]