elfwoodrant: A couple of points about moderating Elfwood.

Gretchen (

curvature) wrote in

elfwoodrant,
@ 2004-02-29 00:19:00

A couple of points about moderating Elfwood.
For those of you who like to rant about how slow the mods are, consider this:

There are currently 20388 sci fi/fantasy artists, 4470 writers, and 1115 fan artists.

There are 2044 tickets in our queues, and of those 147 are currently assigned to mods for processing, or locked waiting for assistance from senior or co-ordinator mods.

Do you know how many moderators there are looking after the ticket queue for all these people?

There are 89 mods all together (as of right now), of which 56 have been active in the last 5 days.

Generally you have about 60 to 70 active in any weekly period. Even though we keep on recruiting more help, it's hard to stay on top of things.

Partly because mods keep burning out and leaving, and partly because at any one time there might be as many as 30 people who are off having babies, graduating, sitting exams, working, being ill (in some cases critically), getting married, having a break, and generally doing real-life stuff.

Do you know one of the reasons why we take so long to recruit mods? Because so many of the people who volunteer are just so wrong for the job. They mean well, but obviously have no grasp of the rules, based on the content of their galleries alone.

Our Harvest mods have to wade through all the unsuitable volunteers before they find those rare and hidden gems, the ones who are passionate about Elfwood, can read AND write, and who speak English. They check the gallery/library thoroughly, send them a test, wait for it to come back (often they are never heard from again), and then assign them to a mentor for training.

It does take time to get a newbie trained up to the point where they can handle the queue without freaking out, and in that time one or two more mods are likely to have quit or just quietly drifted away.

We don't expect everyone to bow down and kiss our feet believing we're being so selfless and self sacrificing, and we don't expect people to never criticize us.

But we are all members of Elfwood the same way you are, many of us are members of these LJ communities, and we care about Elfwood just as much as you do, and we have just as many ideas for making things better.

We also have egos, and pride just like you, and we tend to get a little riled up when we feel that we are being unfairly judged - particularly when people make unfair accusations such as telling us that we have crap taste in art, and that we choose pictures based on how hard someone is kissing our arse rather than the fact that WE like it.

Nobody likes being called a Nazi, nobody likes being constantly put down, and nobody likes to get to the end of the day having worked really hard at something that they are very proud of, and have people rubbish them for it.

If you have some ideas for improving the situation, by all means use the contact form over at Elfwood and tell us. The information does get passed on. There are real people receiving those emails and processing them.

But just grizzling about it non-stop is counter productive and isn't doing anybody any good.

Just speaking for myself, I think it would be really nice if people could cut us a little bit of slack once in a while.

(Post a new comment)

beatprogeny
2004-02-28 03:31 am UTC (link)

I can't help but think that this thing was at least in part spurred by my recent rant, so I feel I must clarify: I was attacking the system, not the people. I understand it's a grueling job, and if it's one we have to have, then I'm all for the people who do it, I just don't believe it's something we need. But still, I apologize if I have been too harsh on the Mods, or if I have been perceived as being harsh. That was not my intent.

Of course, I must also apologize if this rant had nothing to do with mine, and this comment is nothing but shameless egotism and haughty, self-centered crap.

Maybe I should go Mod. That'd be interesting...

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	ankewehner 2004-02-28 04:24 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, would be interesting. You would see all the rule-breaking stuff that's the reason why moderators are needed. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

wave_cannon, 2004-02-28 01:00 pm UTC

(no subject) -

dreamnestia, 2004-02-28 01:31 pm UTC

Funny story about that particular snake... -

edwin77, 2004-02-28 06:16 pm UTC

Re: Funny story about that particular snake... -

curvature, 2004-02-28 08:38 pm UTC

Re: Funny story about that particular snake... -

edwin77, 2004-02-28 08:57 pm UTC

Re: Funny story about that particular snake... -

curvature, 2004-02-29 01:34 am UTC

Re: Funny story about that particular snake... -

edwin77, 2004-02-29 07:18 am UTC

Re: Funny story about that particular snake... -

curvature, 2004-02-29 10:37 am UTC

As many times as it takes to for you realize... -

edwin77, 2004-02-29 11:05 am UTC

Re: As many times as it takes to for you realize... -

curvature, 2004-02-29 01:26 pm UTC

[sighs] -

edwin77, 2004-02-29 03:52 pm UTC

I dunno, but... -

theroach, 2004-02-29 03:46 am UTC

Re: I dunno, but... -

edwin77, 2004-02-29 07:11 am UTC

Re: I dunno, but... -

ankewehner, 2004-02-29 08:13 am UTC

Re: I dunno, but... -

edwin77, 2004-02-29 11:14 am UTC

Re: I dunno, but... -

ankewehner, 2004-02-29 11:30 am UTC

Holy Crap! -

edwin77, 2004-02-29 03:58 pm UTC

halwyn
2004-02-28 04:18 am UTC (link)

I'll take the blame for the current mod shortage. I didn't realise that so many of the older mods were burning out and with the merge I assumed that it would be easier on them.

Actually, since the merge we have had to contend with a huge flood of tickets and in the begining many of them contained a VERY large number of items. We are also seeing more non genre since the merge, it's almost as if people think that now they can put both science fiction and fantasy into the one gallery that anything goes.

But the present crisis should be over soon. We are putting on new moderators daily and the mentors are working very hard to train them. I'm hoping to put on an average of 100 moderators per 6 month period. That should allow for people to have burn out and leave if they need to.

In the mean time I appologise for the slowness of the queue.

Eliza

(Reply to this)

ashlad
2004-02-28 05:24 am UTC (link)

well, this is new...anticipating a rant and then coming up with a response before the rant has been made, heh.

i would think that most of us (by now) would have understood why the moderation process is slow. but understanding something doesn't necessarily mean we won't still experience all the frustration, irritation etc.

nobody in his right mind would think that the moderators are being slow </i>on purpose.</i> still...some of us get frustrated, and have to vent our frustrations in the form of 'rants'. this is the whole point of this community, isn't it.

i think there is a subtle but important difference between ranting abt 'how slow the mods are' and 'how slow the mod queue is'.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

kehrli
2004-02-28 09:55 am UTC (link)

Actually, we see rants on both topics quite regularly (don't challenge me on this, I'm too lazy to dig for URLs).

The major issue is that instead of ranting about the process itself, generally most rants turn into whinefests about how the moderators are all evil tyrannical Hitler-esque rulers who regularly eat small children and squash the heads of puppies.

Besides :) Geocities is free and instant, and you can always put your art there while you're waiting.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

ashlad, 2004-02-28 06:09 pm UTC

(no subject) -

curvature, 2004-02-28 08:37 pm UTC

Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run!
werskalen
2004-02-28 02:38 pm UTC (link)

I think that if the mods would be a little less particular about those they select the system would run a lot smoother, honestly. I'm not going to pretend that I know what goes on at the moderating end of things... But I'm looking at the numbers from my end of things.

There are nearly ninety moderators currently working for Elfwood. There are 25973 members. With such a large number of members, there must be a greater number of people wishing to participate than what the numbers make it out to be. 25973 against 89. Many people are getting rejected, from the looks of things.

Must someone have reached perfection in order to help out? I'm not saying that just anyone should be accepted, but I do think people need to be given more of a chance. There is help available--It's just a matter of trusting people and taking the help.

There. Phew.

I meant no offense by what I said...But, well, I was going to explode if I didn't say it. >.> So, yeah.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run!

curvature
2004-02-28 02:51 pm UTC (link)

That's fair enough, but if someone doesn't have a decent grasp of the rules, how can we expect them to know what to accept or reject into Elfwood?

It really sucks when somebody's art goes through because the mod thinks it's ok, and then the ERB takes it down again because it's breaching the rules. It's embarrassing for the artist and for the mod's.

Or on the flipside of that, we have the situation where something is rejected that should have been let into Elfwood the first time, and the poor artist has to complain about it in order to get anything rectified.

Understanding the rules is the most important part of being a moderator. We have varying levels of skills and knowledge on the team, and it's the ones who have a really good grasp of the material who process the most tickets in the least amount of time. We want more of those ones :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run! - werskalen, 2004-02-28 03:23 pm UTC

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run! -

curvature, 2004-02-28 03:33 pm UTC

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run! - werskalen, 2004-02-28 03:48 pm UTC

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run! -

halwyn, 2004-02-28 05:38 pm UTC

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run! - werskalen, 2004-02-28 05:44 pm UTC

	Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run! curvature 2004-02-28 03:00 pm UTC (link)
	For some reason I can't seem to reply to this. It keeps saying "your comment has been posted" and then when I look it's not there. Hrmph. I spose all three of my responses are going to show up in about 10 minutes >_> Anyway, I'll check it later on, and if they're not here I'll type the whole thing out again. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run! - werskalen, 2004-02-28 03:24 pm UTC

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run!

halwyn
2004-02-28 05:36 pm UTC (link)

Errr, no.

I won't put on anyone as a moderator who doesn't know the rule backward.

It only makes for MORE work.

You see, we also have to answer all the emails that say "why was my picture rejected?"

I had one test yesterday where they got *3* right! That's out of 35 questions.

Now that person asked how to be a moderator. I answered their email and sent off a test. That was one email from me where I could have been doing a ticket. It took maybe 3 mintues.

Then they replied with their answers. It takes me 15+ minutes to go through the 35 answers and tell them which they got wrong, and we have to tell htem why they are wrong otherwise we just get another email "why was that wrong?"

But three right? I mean, how is this person even in Elfwood? And in that time I could have done appoximately 7 tickets. End result - no picture tickets done, no new moderator, one frustrated me :)

Eliza

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: Oh dear, she's putting in a thought of her own. Run! - werskalen, 2004-02-28 06:06 pm UTC

asuzje
2004-02-28 03:10 pm UTC (link)

"There are nearly ninety moderators currently working for Elfwood. There are 25973 members. With such a large number of members, there must be a greater number of people wishing to participate than what the numbers make it out to be. 25973 against 89. Many people are getting rejected, from the looks of things."

I know what you mean.
I wanted to become an ew mod like a year ago. The team was looking for new moderators and I filled out the form. I had to point out the non-genre and the genre pictures and I had to give reasons why a picture wood fit or would not fit at Elfwood.
I made two mistakes and I was rejected. All right, I could live with that. At that time, Elfwood had 30 mods working 'for' them. I never tried again, and at that time, like a year ago, I really wanted to help out Elfwood. I liked it a lot at EW, but now I just don't upload anything because it takes so long.
I just can't imagine that there are just 89 people who are qualified enough for the job. How high are your standards?

(10 minutes later)
I've been reading gsveda's comment and I completely understand what you're trying to make clear. I can see both the members and the mod's feelings about this issue, but what if people don't understand the rules?
Why are there still a lot of people who keep trying uploading stuff which isn't allowed on Elfwood?
Haven't they read the rules? Maybe...but how did they become members anyway? You must understand the rules and guidelines of Elfwood to become a member, right?
I just think it's quite weird that people still try to upload their fluffy mangs bunny and copied fantasy art. Do they know it's not allowed or don't they understand the rules?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

curvature
2004-02-28 03:27 pm UTC (link)

With regards to the number of mods, it's not that only 89 people are qualified, there have been many many more people than that who have modded for Elfwood.
The problem is that they are quitting almost as fast as new ones are being recruited. There are various reasons for it, not just burn-out.
The fact that we are up to 89 where before we had 30 is an indication that we are growing our ranks (so to speak), despite the people who have left.
If you are still interested in modding, by all means volunteer again - there isn't a limit on how many times you can try.
But we are tougher on ourselves than we are on members, and it's something that you need to be aware of before you start.

As to the rule breaking, it varies. We have a group of people who think it's funny to waste eveyrone's time setting up joke accounts and submitting stick figure art (they're currently being dealt with).
We have people who have enough of a grasp of the rules *in theory* to get past the test, but when it comes to actually working out if their art follows the rules they're a bit lost.
We have some people who think they can submit anything they want, and that the moderators are here to help them decide what belongs.
And then there are the ones who think that if they submit the same item enough times, eventually they'll get a more lenient mod who will let it through.
Not to mention the small percentage of people who got into Elfwood prior to modding, and have still never read the rules..
It's a mixed bag.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

werskalen
2004-02-28 03:33 pm UTC (link)

Yes. I wanted to become a mod, too, but was discouraged when my friend tried to become one and was rejected months later. It kind of threw me for a loop at the time that I've seen so many people say that more people need to volunteer and then that happened...

I asked a mod about it a while ago and they said that she was probably rejected because she may have had borderline material in her library or something. I think it would be nice if mods would tell people why they were rejected instead of simply telling them they don't need their help. It would promote the idea of really reading the rules more, I think...

I really want to volunteer now, looking at the situation, but A) With shool, I'm not entirely sure I could devote myself to it and B) Seeing the standards, I'm afraid I may not be accepted for the job. I believe I could be of help, but I'm not sure that people would give me the chance... ~shrug~

Ahem. That was rambly. <.<

It seems to me that there needs to be more communication, thinking about it now. And it's not just the mods I'm talking about--memmbers need to communicate more, too. >.> Seems that way to me right now, anyway.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

curvature, 2004-02-28 03:41 pm UTC

(no subject) - werskalen, 2004-02-28 03:55 pm UTC

(no subject) -

halwyn, 2004-02-28 05:44 pm UTC

(no subject) - werskalen, 2004-02-28 05:59 pm UTC

(no subject) -

curvature, 2004-02-28 08:27 pm UTC

(no subject) -

dreamnestia, 2004-02-29 05:26 am UTC

(no subject) -

polenth, 2004-02-28 04:01 pm UTC

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halwyn, 2004-02-28 05:47 pm UTC

(no subject) -

curvature, 2004-02-28 08:33 pm UTC

asuzje
2004-02-28 03:44 pm UTC (link)

Thank's for your comment Gretchen. I can see how hard it must be to keep out people who are just joking around, and stubborn people are the most irritating I think. Especially when they try to submit a piece which has been rejected multiple times. On that case I think there is more communication needed. I mean, I don't know if there's a way to register that, but I assume you handle a black list or something *wink* ?

Anyway, I recognize myself in this sentence: "I really want to volunteer now, looking at the situation, but A) With shool, I'm not entirely sure I could devote myself to it and B) Seeing the standards, I'm afraid I may not be accepted for the job. I believe I could be of help, but I'm not sure that people would give me the chance.."

That's exactly how I feel. I mean, aren't there are 'light' mod-tasks?
I have no idea how your system works, but I would like to give it a try.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	werskalen 2004-02-28 03:56 pm UTC (link)
	And I am in general agreement. ~waves hand vaguely~ Wooo. We've sure got a real discussion going between the three of us here, eh? XD (Reply to this)(Parent)

	halwyn 2004-02-28 05:54 pm UTC (link)
	If you can spare 4 hours a week we would be happy to see you apply. Eliza (Reply to this)(Parent)

ankewehner
2004-02-29 01:23 am UTC (link)

Well, there's the modlog. At the top of each ticket, you see which images were accepted or rejected previously, including dates, and which were picked for mod's choice as well.

So, if there was an image rejected previously, and the message was something like "legolas.jpg was copied from [url]", and there's an new (and suspicious) picture of Legolas in that ticket, you just have to check the url and check if the image there is still the original of the new piece.
Or if it's any other reason, you can ask the moderator who rejected the original image if that's the same one.
Which is the reason why resubmitting a rejected image usually doesn't help.

And you can make sure that there's some time between modpicks for the same artist.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	asuzje 2004-02-28 03:59 pm UTC (link)
	Well, if you don't mind I will be in bed in a few minutes yawns It's like 0:59 here... (Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - werskalen, 2004-02-28 04:55 pm UTC

(no subject) -

curvature, 2004-02-28 08:27 pm UTC

minadraconia
2004-02-28 06:52 pm UTC (link)

I just wanted to say something nice about the mods. Really.

So far, I've had no trouble with any (that I recall, my memory sucks), and when I did have rejections, a simple, polite email clarified the situation. Polite as in "hello, [insert problem here], thank you". It's the least anyone could do when writing back about a rejection, in my opinion. But I think some people stop at their feeling of annoyance and frustration, and either write back with that feeling floating about their mind, or not write back and rant about it somewhere. Sure, it's always annoying to get a rejection email, but taking a moment to calm down and look over the situation, and then write back to the mods with a clear view of things can't be all that hard to do, can it ?

I think some people don't understand that when you're aggressive, you'll get agressivity back... when you're friendly and diplomatic, you'll be taken seriously. ... or so I think. People don't stop to think about how hard it must be to be a mod, and juggle that and real life and time for themselves even.

... that's about all I wanted to say. ... I think. Let's take a moment to praise the mods who do their volunteer job well. *nod*

(Reply to this)(Thread)

(no subject) - werskalen, 2004-02-28 07:46 pm UTC

Applause

clockwise_zero
2004-02-29 12:10 pm UTC (link)

Amen!

I used to think that the mod process was slow, but then I looked at those little numbers on the Extranet page. I'll just crunch the numbers thrown out in this post.

*If ALL the mods were active, they would be responsible for 230 artists, 51 writers, and 13 fan artists. That means that IDEALLY, each mod would be responsible for 294 people's work.

But all the mods aren't active. With the number that currently are (which I've found stays pretty consistent), it looks like this:

*Each mod is responsible for 365 artists, 80 writers, and 20 fan artists. That means that, in all of EW, each mod has to shoulder the burden of reviewing updates from, potentially, 465 tickets at a time.

Now, this isn't how it works, but that in itself is a HUGE responsibility. And these people aren't being paid for this! With the number of tickets currently in queue, each mod will have to process 37 tickets in the next 5 days! I personally would not be able to keep up with it; I'm impressed beyond words that they're able to get it done as fast as they do with the amount of people they have.

I've a question for you, Gretchen. How long does it take to review a ticket? I'm guessing it's not a quick task. I know my last update a few weeks ago had something like 9 items in it - sorry!

I'm personally very grateful for the service these mods provide us with. Keep in mind, Elfwood is FREE, which means no one's getting paid for this! When you submit, you are getting the time and attention of a REAL person, who could be doing something other than looking over your work!

I salute you, EW mods, each and every one of you. Yours is a thankless, odious task, and I just want to say I'm inestimably grateful for the work - and make no mistake, it IS work - that you do without compensation or recognition.

You have my eternal gratitude and respect.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: Applause -

curvature, 2004-02-29 12:22 pm UTC

	thunder__moon 2004-03-01 12:18 am UTC (link)
	I am very pleased at how fast my ticket is being processed this time. 3000+ in line to 800 in a mere couple of days. Kudos to the mods!! (Reply to this)

	re cgi_guy 2004-03-04 12:44 pm UTC (link)
	It must be a relief for most of the mods not to have to argue over what the definition of "High Fantasy" is anymore. While I'm sure the workload is enormous things must go somewhat faster now that the mods don't have to deal with silliness like how far back in history the bikini goes(This was a real issue, I did not make it up). (Reply to this)(Thread)

Re: re -

curvature, 2004-03-04 12:48 pm UTC

Re: re -

cgi_guy, 2004-03-08 06:59 pm UTC

morima
2004-03-05 02:36 pm UTC (link)

I'm not going to bitch on you for the job you're doing, because I KNOW this and I KNOW that you're doing a great job and the best you can.

But speaking of unfair, maybe the gems aren't as hidden and few as you think. I've applied for volunteering twice; the first time I didn't get a reply and the second time my offer was rejected. It might seem understandable when looking at my gallery, which is full of my goofy sense of humor. I'm having great fun on Elfwood with showing my art and with the commenters who come back!

I've always been trying to keep up with the rules and I've honestly been serious about them. At least as far as I've had the impression of the job I know that I would do a great job as a moderator for Elfwood, but because of the impression I give I'm never given the chance.

I'm not going to apply again myself, but how about you try more people, and maybe change the test to filter out people there? Maybe you'll find more hidden gems.

(Reply to this)

floopyboo
2004-03-08 08:46 am UTC (link)

I'm a new elfwood user, and got bitten by the ticketing system the first attempt. i got mixed up and deleted my ticket. if you were about to do my ticket the first time around, sorry - n00b's luck.

Anyway, i'd been all keen and eager to do the upload thang, and I waited, and waited..... a month went by.... nothing.... I realised I'd stuffed up, and put my new ticket in.

I logged in to check on my ticket when it was supposedly half way through the process, to find something really odd had happened to my page. It had a url on it. to my brand new elfwood page.

thanks for getting me online so quickly.

(Reply to this)

	oikaketa_yume 2004-03-24 08:05 pm UTC (link)
	amen! in my opinion, the mods are pretty much miracle workers. i'm glad people here are showing their appreciation for them ^^ (Reply to this)

	Mods Choice Awards chloe_pogson 2004-04-01 01:40 am UTC (link)
	Hey. I was just wondering how the Mods choice awards wre picked. Cos I won one once, but I've submitted heaps better picures since and havn't got anoter...Just wondering how they are pcked, by who, and what are the criteria. And can you win them any time after a picture is uploaded? (Reply to this)

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