From: thornewilder	Date: November 4th, 2005 04:30 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Subversive

This is an interesting question. I couldn't speak to the element of dual psychosis, but the part that I am intrigued with is the utter and complete inability of our system to dialog on the issue of when a church becomes subversive, and when cadres of churches conspire to overthrow the government/Isn't that what the "restoration" of a hypothetical once-existent Christian nation is?
I wonder why we can't talk about money laundering. Ricco. Treason.

I wonder why politicians who state openly they are against the separation of church and state are not challenged on the level of failing to uphold their oath of office. Where I live the state constitution is even more rigorous about the separation..

What gives? Is religion SOOOOOOOOOOO off limits in our culture that we cannot even prosecute the criminal actions of religions?

I'm all for religious freedom, but when you advocate overthrowing the government doesn't that mean you have - by your own actions - chosen a course of behavior that puts your right to that freedom in question?

	From: dogemperor	Date: November 4th, 2005 04:41 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Subversive

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, *A THOUSAND TIMES THANK YOU*.

THIS is what we need to bring up, seriously:

We have cults in our midst--coercive religious groups--for whom part of *THEIR ESSENTIAL THEOLOGY* is *TREASON* and RACKETEERING.

The fact they're advocating overthrow of the government and engaging in racketeering is bad enough. The fact these are coercive religious groups behind it should scare hell out of *everyone*.

THIS is the reason, folks, why Germany *banned* Scientology and why France, Germany and many other European nations *severely* restrict coercive religious groups--because, far too often, they have bona fide political aspirations (Scientology actually has as part of its dogma taking over governments as well to 'clear the planet'; Aum Shinrykyo also had as part of its agenda the establishment of a theocracy in Japan).

	From: gleef	Date: November 4th, 2005 04:58 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Subversive

Even under existing law, advocating overthrow of the government, or supporting specific parties or candidates for office are explicit violations of the church's tax-exempt status.

Even without a consensus on how to handle the criminal aspects of what these churches do, it strikes me as worthwhile to gather documentation showing that these churches violate their tax-exempt status. I think the IRS would be much less squeamish about delving into churches than most government organizations, particularly the multi-million dollar megachurches.

	From: gleef	Date: November 4th, 2005 04:54 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Subversive

This is an interesting question. I couldn't speak to the element of dual psychosis, but the part that I am intrigued with is the utter and complete inability of our system to dialog on the issue of when a church becomes subversive, and when cadres of churches conspire to overthrow the government/Isn't that what the "restoration" of a hypothetical once-existent Christian nation is?
I wonder why we can't talk about money laundering. Ricco. Treason.

We have a lot of problems addressing crime in the church in general. Even our drug laws (not that I support our drug laws, but they are a good example of enthusiastically enforced laws in this country) have been inconsistently enforced when it comes to religious use. Religious use is more feasible than medical use, and some of the medical users who have been arrested were using locally grown marijuana (no interstate traffic) in full compliance with state and municipal law.

I think the topic of crime in the church needs to get more press, and a national dialog amongst the citizens of this country. I don't think enough people know enough about the issues for there to be a workable consensus on how to handle it.

PS: It's RICO (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations act)

	From: thornewilder	Date: November 4th, 2005 05:14 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	spelling

Thanks Gleef. R-I-C-O. I'm darn near dyslexic, epileptic, and dyspeptic.

	From: gleef	Date: November 4th, 2005 05:18 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: spelling

Normally I don't bother correcting things like that, but RICO makes such a useful search term, it's good to get it right :-)

	From: dogemperor	Date: November 4th, 2005 04:37 pm (UTC)		(Link)

Again, this is far from the first case of "death by deliverance ministry"--multiple kids *per year* die in attempted exorcisms, and so do adults as well.

http://tinyurl.com/9sctr

Furthermore there is increasing evidence that not only mere *involvement* in coercive religious groups can cause psychiatric injuries (notably complex PTSD) but that it can cause full blown psychotic episodes in people with genetic tendencies towards mental illness. Even worse, some of the beliefs in churches heavily into "spiritual warfare/deliverance ministry" are such that even *psychatrists* have difficulty telling the difference between religious belief and mental illness (and even in cases of mental illness the sufferer is more likely to be seen as prophesying).

	From: thornewilder	Date: November 4th, 2005 08:12 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Another Reason

Even worse, some of the beliefs in churches heavily into "spiritual warfare/deliverance ministry" are such that even *psychatrists* have difficulty telling the difference between religious belief and mental illness (and even in cases of mental illness the sufferer is more likely to be seen as prophesying).

AHA! Another explanation as to the attempts to discredit science. Science, or at least the mental health sciences are really going to be attacked. (Oh, yeah...I remember, Tom Cruise and Scientology, spank your kids, etc)

My husband is a Developmental Pediatrician...he is seeing lots of these kids as teens, many with severe MH problems.

Why is it when you dig into a good conspiracy, it really makes you paranoid!

	From: dogemperor	Date: November 4th, 2005 09:47 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Another Reason

Interesting...just out of curiosity, what sorts of problems is he seeing (complex PTSD, anxiety disorders, problems with socialisation, psychosis, what)?

I ask because apparently only a small amount of research has taken place on people who were raised in coercive religious groups--partly because those individuals, sadly, often don't walk away, and partly because very often any assistance sought is as adults and for *consequences* of involvement in coercive religious groups.

What little research has been done seems to indicate people who are raised in coercive religious groups and later walk away have longterm and very often lifelong psychiatric issues related both to the psychiatric injuries (complex PTSD, etc.) resulting from coercive environments and general problems with socialisation. (In many ways, walkaways from coercive religious groups who were raised in those groups are like wolf-children in that they have to learn practically *all* the rules of society all over again and also unlearn programming--unlike people who join coercive groups as adults, there is no "pre-cult personality" and one has to literally raise one's self all over again.)

If it's helpful to your husband, here's some of the few articles I've found on issues with kids who grow up in coercive religious groups:

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles/langone_michael_children.htm (focuses on harm to kids in coercive religious groups, need for longterm assistance including resocialisation)
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_articles/furnari_leona_bornraised.htm (especially good article on socialisation issues with kids raised in coercive religious groups, as well as long term sequelae)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing21.html (info on general tactics used in coercive religious groups, longterm sequelae of involvement)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/recovery/recovery7.html (results from one of the few studies ever performed on a walkaway population of adults who were raised in a coercive "Bible-based" group; almost all having longterm sequelae)

As an aside, yes, there is a very similar push among dominionist groups into the "spiritual warfare" stuff to push their members to use "Christian Counselors" or psychs who are certified through dominionist "accreditation mills", just like there is with Scientologists to avoid psychs. And yes, it's for almost identical reasons (specifically, the increasing realisation that coercive religious groups can cause PTSD and other longterm mental health problems in their followers).

	From: thornewilder	Date: November 4th, 2005 10:08 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Hate as Love

I'll ask him just to be sure, he has all the lingo, I generally speak in fairly simple terms - but a fair amount of almost catatonic/ nonresponsive/dissociative type disorders. Which I guess would indicate PTSD. I will pass on all those links. He really takes this stuff to heart, he would take home all these kids if he could. It is like treating the walking dead.

Soul murder is about as ugly as it gets.

I know one of his kids now could be a "de-gaying" candidate. The mother is unmoved.

I really have trouble with this behavior. If my son had been gay, I'd have moved the earth for him to feel loved.

	From: dogemperor	Date: November 4th, 2005 10:22 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Hate as Love

To this day, trust is something I have a great deal of trouble with...it's only been through people who have cared enough to show me what love actually IS that I've started to learn.

The dissociative/nonresponsive stuff fits in both with complex PTSD and the general socialisation problems of being raised in a dominionist household. (As I've noted, in many ways it's like being a wolf-kid. A lot of us are...reserved because we really don't know HOW to act, or we're not sure we're "getting" it, so to speak.)

	From: dogemperor	Date: November 4th, 2005 09:48 pm (UTC)		(Link)
	Re: Another Reason

In fact, in regards to dominionists, nearly *every* mainstream psychological and psychiatric and social worker association in the United States--and even one of the two major pediatric associations--has issued statements condemning the promotion and use of "reparative therapy" aka "de-gaying therapy". The American Psychiatric Association in particular has noted that "reparative therapy" is harmful longterm. Only two groups (NARTH and a dominionist "parallel economy" alternative to the American Academy of Pediatrics) that claim to professionally cerify individuals support "reparative therapy", and nearly all of the mainstream associations that have condemned it consider it grounds to revoke certification (in most states, also resulting in loss of job, as NARTH is not seen as a legitimate certification body for licensed professions in most states and nearly all states require certification for licensure).

More info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparative_therapy
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_expr.htm
http://www.clgs.org/5/5_6.html
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html
http://www.psych.org/archives/news_room/press_releases/rep_therapy.cfm

If your husband is certified with the American Academy of Pediatrics, it should interest him to know that many of the same churches that his patients attended are also active promoters of the whole "ex-gay" thing his professional association has noted is coercive and harmful:

http://www.clgs.org/5/5_6_1.html
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/pediatrics;92/4/631
(original statement, _Pediatrics_ vol 92 issue 4)
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/pediatrics;113/6/1827 (revised statement, _Pediatrics_ vol 113 issue 6)
http://www.exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2004/06/pediatricians_s.html

Your husband should also be made aware American College of Pediatricians which is a dominionist "accreditation mill" and is one of only two professional groups supporting "reparative therapy":

http://www.exgaywatch.com/blog/archives/2003/06/socially_conser.html
(or from the horses' mouth and major supporters:
http://www.acpeds.org/?BISKIT=3743076626&CONTEXT=cat&cat=3
http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=37&BISKIT=3743076626
http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=50&BISKIT=4233170734
http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=50&BISKIT=2920801063
http://www.acpeds.org/?BISKIT=225956449&CONTEXT=cat&cat=17
http://www.acpeds.org/?BISKIT=3743076626&CONTEXT=cat&cat=14
http://www.acpeds.org/?BISKIT=3743076626&CONTEXT=cat&cat=20 (links to largely dominionist organisations)
http://www.cultureandfamily.org/articledisplay.asp?id=4053&department=CFI (Concerned Women for America)
http://www.exodus-international.org/news_2004_0416.shtml (major group promoting "de-gaying" therapy))