bar_room_brawl: VD fun

bee on a string (

rzr_grl) wrote in

bar_room_brawl,
@ 2004-02-15 14:22:00

VD fun
[oops. I was trying something and it totally failed. The many comments will seem to have no context because i am an idiot. What used to be here was a story where i complained about a girl - not so much because she didn't tip, but because when I handed back her change as five ones and whatever else, it was very busy and she demanded that I take the five ones and give her a five dollar bill. I found this extremely annoying, for a number of reasons; she's advertising the fact that she has no intention of tipping me, she's interrupting other customers (and my other opportunities to make money), and christ, is it such an inconvenience to have four more pieces of paper in your wallet? It totally feels like a pissing match and when I'm irritated, I'm easily baited by such things. So, the lengthy discussion as to whether or not I'm an asshole, and the pros and cons of tipping are a result of that.]

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	Tipping ogw 2004-02-15 04:14 pm UTC (link)
	When I get rich, I plan to tip outrageously. And by that I mean I will never soil my fingers with anything less than a $20. One of the main reasons I don't go out much now is I'm too poor to tip well. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	Re: Tipping rzr_grl 2004-02-16 01:59 am UTC (link)
	Well, we won't complain, but that certainly isn't necessary! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2004-02-15 04:39 pm UTC (link)
	Don't interpret this as a insult, but do sometimes think about how your actions would appear to the pre-bartender version of you? It is hard not to come to the conclusion that bartending changes people... (Reply to this)(Thread)

oh really?

rzr_grl
2004-02-16 02:43 am UTC (link)

The vast majority of my actions are overly charitable given the circumstances. I can't tell you how many times I've had people hang around my bar for ten minutes -- including security staff and the guys who mop puke -- and wander away shaking their heads saying, "Man, I'm glad I don't have your job. I don't know how you do it!" I deal with 1000-person crowds on a regular basis. I'd guess 1 in 10 interactions involve someone tipping very poorly or not at all, and 1 in 30 involves some level of abuse or extreme stupidity on their part. You do the math and see if you can still judge my comparatively rare (and mild) reactions.

Furthermore, you don't see how honestly nice I am to people until they give me reason not to be, and often far beyond the point of them giving me that reason. You don't know about the regulars I now count among my friends, the good-natured joking, the free birthday drinks, the comps for extra-nice people (not just good tippers; see also "I'll have the special"), the compliments, the continuing honest effort to actually make good drinks and to squeeze everyone in before last call, the remembering that this person doesn't want fruit and that person wants their kamikaze more sour than sweet...and the list goes on. This, while people are sticking their gum to my bar mat, puking on me, yelling at me, not paying me for my services, stealing my tips off the bar, using handfuls of napkins to wipe their sweaty face and then putting them back on the stack, complaining about everything from the door price to the type of music to the weather, leaving their shoes on the bar and wandering off, knocking over all my glasses, never apologizing for anything ever, lying, begging and bribing for drinks after last call, stealing entire bottles from the shelf, sneaking their own booze in, passing fake bills, ordering 7 shots of Remy then just wandering away when it's time to pay, always demanding "the hookup," pissing in the hallway and the trash cans, and on and on and on.

The extent of my change is only the realization, reinforced on average 90 times per weekend, that a significant portion of humanity is just absolutely dreadful and abusively self-absorbed. In light of that, my willingness to take shit from people is somewhat diminished, and I don't think that's a bad thing at all.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you've never had a retail or service industry job. If you had, you'd know all this already.
I deeply believe that everyone should be forced to wait tables for a year of their early adult life. That single shared experience would humble the entire western world into developing at least the minimum level of manners required for admission to humanity.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re: oh really?

stereotomy
2004-02-16 04:20 pm UTC (link)

I deeply believe that everyone should be forced to wait tables for a year of their early adult life. That single shared experience would humble the entire western world into developing at least the minimum level of manners required for admission to humanity.

I agreed with everything you wrote except the last paragraph. I think there's a class of people who are stupid beyond hope: we've got some semi-regulars who wait tables, and are absolutely horrible. Balk at the $1 cover, showing up after last call, expecting drinks after last call, gum in the ashtrays, obnoxious drinks and no tip. Bastards.

Give me the kitchen staff any day.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

(Anonymous)
2004-02-15 04:46 pm UTC (link)

>"You know, it isn't really that she didn't tip.

But of course it is! That's it exactly! (You say this after recounting several tales of shitting on people for not tipping.) Do you really believe that you have some higher motive than that? Amazing!

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re:

nymec
2004-02-15 05:01 pm UTC (link)

Reading comprehension isn't your forte, right? It's fairly obvious that she wrote that the girl was annoying to not have tipped. But then, the same girl, had the chutzpa to complain about getting five bills instead of one.

What is your major malfunction? Do you think tipping is a rip off? How much do you tip on average? Have you ever worked a job in which the majority of your pay was in tips? I haven't and I still tip well.

To equate acting surly towards a non-tipping customer with "shitting on [them]" is preposterous. What other method does the worker have to signal their annoyance with a customers violation of common protocol.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re:
(Anonymous)
2004-02-15 06:43 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, surely I don't tip well- how insightful of you to figure that out! My comments definitely would allow you to judge that. Certainly intentionally ripping a customer off (rather than, say, mentioning that tipping is customary) is 'shitting on them'. Don't bother responding, return to your regularly scheduled activities, one can't criticize in a forum like this. (Though I was trying to ask an honest question, asslicking natually gets in the way here...)

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re:

nymec
2004-02-15 07:02 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, lots of asslicking considering I don't know anyone here.

How do you think tipped employees should deal with non-tipping customers? Should they just accept the slap in the face without question?

I would say I put as much judgment into thinking that perhaps you were a poor tipper as you did in judging the original poster in your first post. Did you read it again? Is that a question or a judgement? Reads much more like the later to me.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	Re: nymec 2004-02-15 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	I forgot: which part exactly do you think is ripping someone off? Keeping the whole $5 bill? (Reply to this)(Parent)

fzou
2004-02-16 04:07 am UTC (link)

I hate the idea of having to tip 20% or 25% of every drink. Were I to travel to the US and go to a bar or club, I'd be tempted to give the barstaff a set amount (say, $20 or $30) at the start of the night and tell them to not expect tips when I order drinks.

The US tipping system will never cease to amaze me. Why can't the bars either raise the prices of the drinks, and / or pay the staff more?

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	rzr_grl 2004-02-16 02:56 pm UTC (link)
	give the barstaff a set amount (say, $20 or $30) at the start of the night and tell them to not expect tips when I order drinks Some people do that. Not many, but some. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: denshi 2004-02-17 05:41 pm UTC (link)
	How does that technique go over? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re:

rzr_grl
2004-02-18 01:33 pm UTC (link)

Oh, just fine (with me, anyway, can't speak for anyone else on the matter). It's kinda nice, actually, then we can both just forget about it for the evening.

The disadvantage, of course, is if your preselected bartender of the night sucks, or leaves before you're finished drinking. Then you're kinda screwed. If you're a regular somewhere, though, that shouldn't be a problem; I'd think you'd quickly be recognized as "that guy who tips at the beginning."

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2004-03-17 08:23 pm UTC (link)
	So what would happen if the Lounge hiked drink prices 20%, put up big "no tipping" signs, and passed the excess to the bartenders? Why not? (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	rzr_grl 2004-03-17 09:25 pm UTC (link)
	I dunno man, that's just not the way the system works. Ask the boss. (Reply to this)(Parent)

tightscience
2004-02-16 09:42 am UTC (link)

I am curious--approximately what percentage of the tips you receive do you actually take home?

I've always been a good tipper, but I have to admit that sometimes, $1 a drink seems like a lot, especially if it's for something simple like a bottle of beer. I know that being a bartender is hard work and that it entails dealing with a lot of difficult people, but you could say the same of many jobs that are for a flat wage (cue Steve Buscemi's rant from Reservoir Dogs).

Anyway, I was pretty surprised to read this entry, because it feels like you think that tips are something you are owed rather than a bonus for good service. Are you not being paid a basic wage in addition to the tips? I know that the minimum wage laws in SF apply to waiters.

I was also surprised that you think it is OK to shortchange a customer on his or her drink as a punishment for not tipping--after all, the drinks you're selling belong to the bar, and not to you. If the customer is paying the full price of a drink, doesn't the bar owe them a full drink?

If chipping in an extra dollar per drink is mandatory in order to receive polite service and a proper drink, then maybe the whole practice of tipping should be discontinued altogether and just have a service fee tacked onto every drink.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

Re:

rzr_grl
2004-02-16 03:47 pm UTC (link)

I am curious--approximately what percentage of the tips you receive do you actually take home?

It varies; on a really slow night there are fewer people working, so I get a higher percentage on fewer overall tips. But, the usual scenario is 26%. Not so much, and we pay taxes on that as well.

I've always been a good tipper, but I have to admit that sometimes, $1 a drink seems like a lot, especially if it's for something simple like a bottle of beer.

Assuming you've been reading for a while, then you've already noticed my attitude toward tipping for bottled beer (and even moreso for water/redbull) is "grateful if I get it, disappointed if I don't." When people make mention of not tipping for the above, my usual (non-sarcastic) response is, "That's okay, I didn't work too hard." Especially if someone is also ordering mixed drinks and tipping for them, or has tipped for drinks earlier in the night. I am standing up for three or four hours, making $5/hr and nothing more, and bored off my socks when people don't tip for after-hours drinks, but I can certainly understand it. I *always* make a point of looking people in the eye and thanking them for tipping for water, because they'd have a good argument for not doing so.

As to your second question, yes, we get minimum wage, just like waiters. Frequent a restaurant while never tipping, and see what kind of service and food you get then. Once again, anyone who thinks that tipping in these professions is a "bonus" has never had any of these jobs, was never raised by a parent working such a job, and has never dated anyone working such a job. Do it for a year, and come back at me with that same opinion.

I do think it's perfectly fine to withhold a tip if the service is especially bad. In the extremely rare occasions I've done so or been with someone who has done so, we've always talked to the person or left a note explaining the problem.

The bar wants its employees treated well just as much as it wants the customers treated well. Besides that, have you ever had a drink in europe? I'd bet you $20 that, were we to measure by the ounce, she got more than her 2 shots worth in that drink. American bars overpour. Our club overpours massively. Which is part of your last statement -- you really want to pay $15 for a weak-ass metered well drink so that we all have the luxury of being inconsiderate to each other? Drinks in europe suck, and the service is worse. Not to mention that the entire system is set up on the assumption of tips: the hours, the wages, the number of employees, the price of the drinks, the price of the door, the tax structure -- so while "Well, they should just pay you more!" sounds lovely, it ain't ever gonna happen, and it sure as hell isn't relevant now.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

Re:

rzr_grl
2004-02-16 04:00 pm UTC (link)

To clarify that confusing last paragraph:

- I'm betting you $20 the girl I shortpoured still got more than two shots worth of booze,
- Europe's system is without tipping, as a result both the drinks and the service suck
- The entire system in the US is set up for tips, including taxes and benefits, so it ain't goin' away.

And also, I always wonder when this comes up -- didn't anyone else notice that the purpose of that tipping rant in Res. Dogs was to set up his character as a totally unlikeable dick?

(Reply to this)(Parent)

Re:

tightscience
2004-02-16 06:00 pm UTC (link)

Once again, anyone who thinks that tipping in these professions is a "bonus" has never had any of these jobs, was never raised by a parent working such a job, and has never dated anyone working such a job. Do it for a year, and come back at me with that same opinion.

It's true that I've never worked a job where I earned tips, but I have worked some pretty shitty jobs (I worked as a janitor one summer in college) for minimum wage (and I'm talking national minimum here, not the San Francisco minimum). However, I am dating someone who makes his living largely from tips, and he agreed with me on this one.

I don't mean to defend the practice of failing to tip, because I agree with you that it's rude and disrespectful. I completely agree that the customer you described sounds like an asshole. And I also understand that your basic pay is set artificially low because of the expectation that you will bring in tips.
But aren't there always going to be a certain percentage of customers who don't tip or who tip poorly? And isn't that taken into account in calculating your pay scale? And given that tipping is optional, it seems to me that the price of a drink should buy you a full drink, regardless of whether you are a non-tipping asshole.

I don't think it's relevant how big the drinks are in Europe, or even next door. If you typically give a certain-sized drink for a certain price at your bar, that becomes what people expect, and that's the unwritten contract they enter into when they agree to buy a drink at your bar.

As for the issue of tips affecting the level of service, there is quite a bit of evidence that this is not the case, at least in restaurants. I know that personally, I almost always tip $1 per drink in bars, regardless of the cost of the drink or the difficulty of making it--it's just a habit for me. But then in restaurants, even if I order a drink with my meal, I just tip 20% on the whole bill, which is significantly less than the percentage I'd probably tip in a bar, even though the quality of the drinks and service is probably at least as high as what I would get in a bar. It all just seems so arbitrary to me--I can't believe there isn't a better way.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

gordonzola
2004-02-16 03:20 pm UTC (link)

wow RZR, you certainly attracted a lot of whiners to this entry.

I was thinking that since we still haven't met, I should head over to your bar and try to get an anonyomous memntion in this journal. If you see someone licking their dollar bills before handing them over, it might be me. Or it might not. HAAAAAAAAAAA-HA-HA!

oh but then you might head to the cheese counter and do something similar so I better not.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	Don't lick money! Ok! Ok! jwz 2004-02-16 07:43 pm UTC (link)
	As you lick your dollar bill, don't forget to ponder the multitude of soaking wet socks, sweaty cleavage-cracks, puke-seasoned bar-room floors, and of course powdered contraband that it has been in intimate contact with... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Don't lick money! Ok! Ok! (Anonymous) 2004-03-12 01:03 am UTC (link)
	As bad as it looks, just remember it can always be worse (http://www.improvisation.ws/mb/tpcs1.php). I'll never look at bacterial hand cleaner the same way again. (Reply to this)(Parent)

Just to enter the bandwagon

skamp
2004-02-20 04:41 pm UTC (link)

I am new to your journal, but so far dig the writing, so keep it up.

That aside, I represent the waite staff side off this arguement. The best job I have ever had was working at a 4 star as a table waiter. The job was difficult, challenging, and paid dick, but what made it worthwhile was that fact that I got to go home each night with 100-200 dollars in my pocket. I only made minimum wage and this was justified by the fact that we got to keep most of our tips (after tipping out the bus staff, the line, the host/hostess and the prep cooks). Tips aren't extra, they are part and parcel of the job. Thats the money I had to live on and with which I paid for school. The question at large isn't whether difficult, low appreciation jobs (such as janitoring, clericing, of secretarial work) deserve "a little extra" above and beyond their wage. The reality is that some one who enters a bar or club or restaurant is paying for the service of people waiting on their needs and wants. Thats part of the job. Tipping pays the phone bill, for the diapers, and for groceries. When you stiff me on my tip, you are impairing my ability to make a living. Its a little different as a waiter than as a bar tender (Assumtion, here) because I give it my best and dont get my tip until the end of the person's individual stay. But you can bet your socks that if I recognize the guy/couple/ group/girl that stiffed me before, they are getting less than my best service or attention. I can't see that as anything less than their due. They refuse to fully participate in the system so they shouldn't fully benifit from it.

Thats my two cents.

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